New Covenant, the 144,000 and NT scriptures

[BABerean2]

A destiny within the New Earth is what they are referring to.

This sounds like the two peoples of God doctrine of Dispensational Theology. The problem is that race is not a factor in the New Covenant.

The New Testament starts with the genealogy that produces Christ.
Then shortly after John the Baptist makes it clear that race does not matter in the New Covenant.

Mat 3:9　 and do not think to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.　

Christ said there would be one flock.

Joh 10:16　 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.　

.

 

[Radrook]

This sounds like the two peoples of God doctrine of Dispensational Theology. The problem is that race is not a factor in the New Covenant.

The New Testament starts with the genealogy that produces Christ.
Then shortly after John the Baptist makes it clear that race does not matter in the New Covenant.

Mat 3:9　 and do not think to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.　

Christ said there would be one flock.

Joh 10:16　 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.　

.

The concept doesn't involve race since the Israelites mentioned are considered spiritual Israelites.
The other sheep you mention in the scripture are understood to mean the Great Crowd described in Revelation which are not of the 144,000. These 144000 are understood to belong to te little flock Jesus referred to in the following scripture:

Luke 12:32 "Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom

 

[Guess Who?]

. The 144,000- Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. (Who are the firstfruits?)

Compare to the following verse from Paul in the Book of Romans describing Christians.

Rom 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ. (Who are the firstfruits of the Lamb?)

They are clearly Christians, since they are the firstfruits of Christ.

However, they are most likely a symbol since there are exactly 12,000 in each tribe.

If you go to the modern State of Israel and ask the people which tribe they are from, you will get a blank stare.

During the Diaspora the intermarriage confused the tribal identities. Most modern Jews are not from a single tribe, as Paul was.
.

There is a double meaning here...........women........

Yes, literally they are virgin men.

Also, they have not been defiled by the 'church', the church is also referred to as a woman.


The 144K are the two witnesses, the Lamp Stand and the Olive Tree. IOWs, Judah and Israel. Judah is the Light and Israel provides the oil for the lamp...ie...the olive tree/ lamp oil. Perpetual Light unto the earth.


Study it out./

 

[BABerean2]

There is a double meaning here...........women........

Yes, literally they are virgin men.

Also, they have not been defiled by the 'church', the church is also referred to as a woman.


The 144K are the two witnesses, the Lamp Stand and the Olive Tree. IOWs, Judah and Israel. Judah is the Light and Israel provides the oil for the lamp...ie...the olive tree/ lamp oil. Perpetual Light unto the earth.


Study it out./

2Co_11:2　 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

I think you are correct.

Since there are exactly 12,000 from each tribe, some of which did not exist at the time this book was written, these are most probably a symbol.

Based on Revelation 1:20, the lampstands(candlesticks) are the churches.

In Romans 11 the Olive Trees are the Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one New Covenant Church.


.

 

[jgr]

Also, they have not been defiled by the 'church', the church is also referred to as a woman.

If the 144,000 represent the redeemed of the ages, i.e. the church, then the church can't be defiling the church.

Here is the exposition again.

 

[AJTruth]

Tribes of Israel & the 144,000


God changed Jacobs name to Israel (Genesis 35:10) The 12 Tribes are Jacobs sons.
Rev 7: 4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand.

Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand.

Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand.

Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand.

Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand.

Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand.

Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand.

Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand.

Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

EACH OF THE """12 TRIBES OF ISRAEL""". ALL Israelites!

The 12 Tribes mentioned in Rev 7:4 are LITERAL, NOT SYMBOLIC!

Vines Dictionary explaination on the word Tribes:

The word "tribe" is never used in the Bible to refer gentiles. As follows: "Tribe" is found 297 times in the Bible, and ""every time"" it refers to the Israelites.

The 144,000 are ALL ISRAELITES! Just reread this verse, IT'S CLEAR:

Rev 7:4
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of """""all the tribes of the children of Israel"""""

More proof here:
Reread the 12 Tribes mentioned above in Rev 7:4. One of the original is missing and replaced by another.

This isn't a mistake, misprint or corrupt translation.

NOTE: The Tribe of Dan is not mantioned in Rev 7:4.

Since Ephraim and Manasseh (often called the "two half-tribes of Joseph") together traditionally constituted the tribe of Joseph (is ephraim) , it was often not listed as one of the tribes, in favour of Ephraim and Manasseh being listed in its place; consequently it was often termed the House of Joseph

The Tribe of Dan : Danites failed to drive out their Philistine and Canaanite neighbors. As a result, they migrated to another land, in the northernmost limits of Canaan.

The tribe of Dan was the plunged into pagan IDOLATRY! The only Old Teatament sin that couldn't be covered thru sacricice was IDOLATRY.

 

[jgr]

Rev. 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – the Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22

Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30

Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Rev. 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes, describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:

Judah means “praise” (Gen 29:35)

Reuben means “see, a Son” (Gen 29:32)

Gad means “fortunate” (Gen 30:11)

Asher means “happy” (Gen 30:13)

Naphtali means “wrestling” (Gen 30:8)

Manasseh means “forgetting” (Gen 41:51)

Simeon means “heard” (Gen 29:33)

Levi means “attached” (Gen 29:34)

Issachar means “wages” (Gen 30:18)

Zebulon means “dwelling” (Gen 30:20)

Joseph means “He will add” (Gen 30:24)

Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Gen 35:17–18)


Also of significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.


Is 144,000 literal or symbolic? While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful, e.g. 1 Kings 19:18. Their number is thus depicted as 12, symbolizing the faithful saints within the 12 tribes; times 12, a scriptural symbol of completeness; times 1000, which when used symbolically denotes a large quantity (Psa. 50:10; 91:7; 2 Pet. 3:8).


Rev. 14 continues the descriptions of the 144,000, further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and oneness of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile, consistent with other scripture:


Gal. 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


Eph. 2:14

For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…


Additional numerical symbolism relating to the Church can be found in the 12 apostles representing saints of the NT era.


No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.

 

[AJTruth]

Rev. 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – the Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22

Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30

Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Rev. 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes, describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:

Judah means “praise” (Gen 29:35)

Reuben means “see, a Son” (Gen 29:32)

Gad means “fortunate” (Gen 30:11)

Asher means “happy” (Gen 30:13)

Naphtali means “wrestling” (Gen 30:8)

Manasseh means “forgetting” (Gen 41:51)

Simeon means “heard” (Gen 29:33)

Levi means “attached” (Gen 29:34)

Issachar means “wages” (Gen 30:18)

Zebulon means “dwelling” (Gen 30:20)

Joseph means “He will add” (Gen 30:24)

Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Gen 35:17–18)


Also of significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.


Is 144,000 literal or symbolic? While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful, e.g. 1 Kings 19:18. Their number is thus depicted as 12, symbolizing the faithful saints within the 12 tribes; times 12, a scriptural symbol of completeness; times 1000, which when used symbolically denotes a large quantity (Psa. 50:10; 91:7; 2 Pet. 3:8).


Rev. 14 continues the descriptions of the 144,000, further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and oneness of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile, consistent with other scripture:


Gal. 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


Eph. 2:14

For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…


Additional numerical symbolism relating to the Church can be found in the 12 apostles representing saints of the NT era.


No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.

Rev. 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – the Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22

Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30

Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Rev. 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes, describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:

Judah means “praise” (Gen 29:35)

Reuben means “see, a Son” (Gen 29:32)

Gad means “fortunate” (Gen 30:11)

Asher means “happy” (Gen 30:13)

Naphtali means “wrestling” (Gen 30:8)

Manasseh means “forgetting” (Gen 41:51)

Simeon means “heard” (Gen 29:33)

Levi means “attached” (Gen 29:34)

Issachar means “wages” (Gen 30:18)

Zebulon means “dwelling” (Gen 30:20)

Joseph means “He will add” (Gen 30:24)

Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Gen 35:17–18)


Also of significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.


Is 144,000 literal or symbolic? While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful, e.g. 1 Kings 19:18. Their number is thus depicted as 12, symbolizing the faithful saints within the 12 tribes; times 12, a scriptural symbol of completeness; times 1000, which when used symbolically denotes a large quantity (Psa. 50:10; 91:7; 2 Pet. 3:8).


Rev. 14 continues the descriptions of the 144,000, further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and oneness of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile, consistent with other scripture:


Gal. 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


Eph. 2:14

For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…


Additional numerical symbolism relating to the Church can be found in the 12 apostles representing saints of the NT era.


No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.

Hello jgr,

The problem I see with your view is that the scripture say's
tribes of the children of Israel. Then names them with the exception on Dan. I explained that in my post.

Tribes speaks to Israelites. The church speaks to New testament believers.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: """and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel""".

2ndly, Revelation chapters 1 until 4:1 are about the Church.

4:1 The come up hither is the rapture. You can't even force church in again until chapter 19. Have a blessed day.

 

[BABerean2]

Tribes speaks to Israelites. The church speaks to New testament believers.

Israel and the Church cannot be separated.

Jer 31:31　 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—　

Jer 31:32　 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD.　

Jer 31:33　 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.　

Jer 31:34　 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."　


Act 2:14　 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.　

Act 2:22　 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—　

Act 2:36　 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."　



Heb 8:6　 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.　

Heb 8:7　 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.　

Heb 8:8　 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—　

Heb 8:9　 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.　

Heb 8:10　 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.　

Heb 8:11　 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.　

Heb 8:12　 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."　

Heb 8:13　 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.　



Heb 12:18　 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest,　

Heb 12:19　 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore.　

Heb 12:20　 (For they could not endure what was commanded: "AND IF SO MUCH AS A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT SHALL BE STONED OR SHOT WITH AN ARROW."　

Heb 12:21　 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I AM EXCEEDINGLY AFRAID AND TREMBLING.")　

Heb 12:22　 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,　

Heb 12:23　 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,　

Heb 12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

.

 

[AJTruth]

Israel and the Church cannot be separated.

Jer 31:31　 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—　

Jer 31:32　 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD.　

Jer 31:33　 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.　

Jer 31:34　 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."　


Act 2:14　 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.　

Act 2:22　 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—　

Act 2:36　 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."　



Heb 8:6　 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.　

Heb 8:7　 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.　

Heb 8:8　 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—　

Heb 8:9　 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.　

Heb 8:10　 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.　

Heb 8:11　 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.　

Heb 8:12　 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."　

Heb 8:13　 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.　



Heb 12:18　 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest,　

Heb 12:19　 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore.　

Heb 12:20　 (For they could not endure what was commanded: "AND IF SO MUCH AS A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT SHALL BE STONED OR SHOT WITH AN ARROW."　

Heb 12:21　 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I AM EXCEEDINGLY AFRAID AND TREMBLING.")　

Heb 12:22　 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,　

Heb 12:23　 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,　

Heb 12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

.

Ok, Every OT scripture you put up is to Jews.

Acts Read

Israel and the Church cannot be separated.

Jer 31:31　 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—　

Jer 31:32　 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD.　

Jer 31:33　 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.　

Jer 31:34　 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."　


Act 2:14　 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.　

Act 2:22　 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—　

Act 2:36　 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."　



Heb 8:6　 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.　

Heb 8:7　 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.　

Heb 8:8　 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—　

Heb 8:9　 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.　

Heb 8:10　 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.　

Heb 8:11　 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.　

Heb 8:12　 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."　

Heb 8:13　 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.　



Heb 12:18　 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest,　

Heb 12:19　 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore.　

Heb 12:20　 (For they could not endure what was commanded: "AND IF SO MUCH AS A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT SHALL BE STONED OR SHOT WITH AN ARROW."　

Heb 12:21　 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I AM EXCEEDINGLY AFRAID AND TREMBLING.")　

Heb 12:22　 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,　

Heb 12:23　 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,　

Heb 12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

.

All the Jeremiah scriptures are written to Israelites. Church does not exist

Here in acts again Israelites only. Again the Church doesn't exist. Paul is the Church builder
Acts 2:14　 "Men of Judea 　

Act 2:22　 "Men of Israel,

Act 2:36　 house of Israel

Your Hebrews posts: Well written to HEBREWS!

Chapter 8 is about the priesthood. Not the church & has nothing to do with Revelation & the 144,000

Although chapter 12 does mention the church.

The chapters context has nothing to do will the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation

 

[BABerean2]

Although chapter 12 does mention the church.

The chapters context has nothing to do will the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation

Rev 14:4　 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.　

Rom 16:5　 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Greet my beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia to Christ.　

2Co_11:2　 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.


In the two verses above the Apostle Paul describes members of the New Covenant Church in the same language used by John to describe the 144,000.

2Co 3:6　 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.　

The New Covenant was first made with Israelites on the Day of Pentecost, which is confirmed by Acts 2:36.
The Gentiles were grafted in several years later.

 

[AJTruth]

Rev 14:4　 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.　

Rom 16:5　 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Greet my beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia to Christ.　

2Co_11:2　 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.


In the two verses above the Apostle Paul describes members of the New Covenant Church in the same language used by John to describe the 144,000.

2Co 3:6　 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.　

The New Covenant was first made with Israelites on the Day of Pentecost, which is confirmed by Acts 2:36.
The Gentiles were grafted in several years later.

Lol, We aren't ever going to agree on the issue. No harm no foul.

Your forcing firstfruits where again has no context to the 144,000.

Did you know Jesus was died on the feast of Passover, was buried on the feast of unleavened bread, He rose on the feast of FIRSTFRUITS. He was the firstfruit of the resurrection.

Every year for 1500 yrs before the resurrection. On the feast of firstfruits the Priest would gather a barley sheaf and wave it before the Lord. This sanctified the whole harvest field.

Take care God bless you & yours. AJ

 

[jgr]

4:1 The come up hither is the rapture. You can't even force church in again until chapter 19. Have a blessed day.

Hi AJ,

"Come up hither" is a personal invitation to John. There is no mention of the church.

In Rev. 7, we know that the 144,000 are on earth. Given the references to them being "sealed", we know that they are part of the Church. Thus the Church is (still) on earth at that time.

God bless.

 

[BABerean2]

Lol, We aren't ever going to agree on the issue. No harm no foul.

Your forcing firstfruits where again has no context to the 144,000.

That would be John who used the term "firstfruits" of the Lamb in Revelation chapter 14, instead of me.

If there is any "forcing", it would be from John.


Rev 14:4　 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.　
.

 

[AJTruth]

Hi AJ,

"Come up hither" is a personal invitation to John. There is no mention of the church.

In Rev. 7, we know that the 144,000 are on earth. Given the references to them being "sealed", we know that they are part of the Church. Thus the Church is (still) on earth at that time.

God bless.

Hello again jgr,

The message given to John beginning in Revelation 1:11 continues all the way until Revelation 4:1 Is all about and exclusively for, the Church.

No futher mention of the Church beyond Rev 4:1. Why? Because the CHURCH IS GONE! Raptured/Caught-up

Here's what I see in Rev 4:1:

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of """a trumpet talking with me"""; which said," """Come up hither"""", and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter

The """come up hither""" is a picture of the Rapture.

Rev 4:1 a door was opened in heaven:
1 Thes 4:16 the Lord himself shall descend from heaven

Rev 4:1 a trumpet talking with me
1 Thes 4:16 voice of the archangel, & with the trump of God

Rev 4:1 """come up hither""":
1 Thes 4:17 """"caught up together"""", & so shall we ever be with the Lord

1 Thes 4:
16 For "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven" with a shout, with the "voice of the archangel, & with the trump of God": and the dead in Christ shall rise first

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be "caught up" together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: & so shall we ever be with the Lord

I see here the church escaping the wrath of the great tribulation soon to be poured out. That's what we see coming throughout Revelation after Rev 4:1

I understand many believers may disagree with me. No harm, no foul, that’s their privilege. I'm simply sharing my opinion/commentary on some bible verses. My view isn't going to lead any believer into a lost eternity.

Finally
The Church is gone first and then the 144'000 Israelites are sealed and sent out to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom. Maranatha

 

[BABerean2]

The """come up hither""" is a picture of the Rapture.

Rev 11:4　 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.　

Rev 11:7　 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.　
Rev 11:8　 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.　
Rev 11:9　 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves.　
Rev 11:10　 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.　
Rev 11:11　 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.　
Rev 11:12　 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.　



Rev 1:20　 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.　

Rom 11:17　 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,　

.

 

[jgr]

No futher mention of the Church beyond Rev 4:1. Why? Because the CHURCH IS GONE! Raptured/Caught-up

Hi again AJ,

To reiterate: If the 144,000 in Rev. 7 are on earth (which they are), and are sealed and thus part of the Church (which they are), then the Church is (still) on earth and not raptured, irrespective of the omission of the word "Church".

Note that "Church" does not appear in 1 Thes. 4 despite it being Paul's audience.

"Come up hither" is a picture of the Rapture here only to the pretribulationist.

God bless.

 

[Sammy-San]

Read it again. It's 144,000 Jews (12,000 from each tribe), and a countless number of others. The numbers are symbolic anyway. They are defined as "those who follow the Lamb wherever He goes". I'm sure you wish to be one of them, so follow Jesus wherever He goes. I'll see you up there.

Aren't they the ones who preach during Tribulation?

 

[Ken Behrens]

Aren't they the ones who preach during Tribulation?

If you are asking me personally, I don't have a clue. I'm sure the argument could be made both ways.