Nephilim

[Supplanter]

This was an excellent post. The other part of this equation that has not really been explored in this thread is the cultural beliefs of the Hebrew people. Although the book of Enoch (a detailed account of the fallen angels mating with men) was not considered canon by OT Hebrew scholars, it was however pretty much universally agreed upon by those same scholars that the Nephilim in Genesis 6 were fallen angels who mated with men. It was a common belief in Hebrew culture.

In fact the place in the NT where it mentions women not praying without a covering actually has a huge cultural context, because it was believed that praying without a woman covering her head could tempt the "watchers" and this was a means of them preventing a repeat of Genesis 6.

I think it also important to note that the book of Enoch is quoted several times in New Testament Scripture.

In light of this fact, I believe there are two reasonable options of interpretation:

1. To accept that at least part of the book of Enoch (probably the first part that speaks of the fallen angels mating with women) is inspired writing because it is quoted from in the NT several times.

2. That the writers of the NT used imagery of cultural superstition to illustrate and communicate their message and piggy backed off of them to further the Gospel message.



I am personally inclined to believe both 1 and 2.

Good Post!

Also, BenAdam, some good posts.

And if the question of whether or not fallen angels can mate with women is up for debate then feel free to debate it here.

 

[BenAdam]

Good Post!

Also, BenAdam, some good posts.

And if the question of whether or not fallen angels can mate with women is up for debate then feel free to debate it here.

IMHO debate like this is important as long as the point is to learn and grow.

In this subject I tend to agree that the Nephilim were what many people state here, but scripture is far from certain on that.

 

[imperfectchristian]

To accept that the book of Enoch was in actuality written by the Biblical Gensis Enoch, it would be the ONLY book or writing that exists from antediluvian times. That strains credulity.

I am not arguing from that position. The fact remains that it is quoted several times in the New Testament which means (if you believe Christian protestant othodoxy) they are inspired and unfallible. The passage in Jude, if taken in context and understood that it is a direct quote form Enoch would require that if you believe Scripture to be infallible then you would be forced to accept that the fallen angels mating with women is in fact a true account.

On a side note: The books of Revelation, 1st John and Hebrews are all condered by many modern scholars not to have been written by the individuals they are attributed to. I am not taking sides on the issue, only pointing out that to base the reasoning for disclusion solely on the authorship of the writing would pose problems for books that are already part of canon.

 

[Supplanter]

IMHO debate like this is important as long as the point is to learn and grow.

Absolutely. That's why I posted this thread . . .not to really debate . . .but just to learn and grow and debate just doesn't bother me if it can be used in that pursuit.

 

[Supplanter]

I am not arguing from that position. The fact remains that it is quoted several times in the New Testament which means (if you believe Christian protestant othodoxy) they are inspired and unfallible. The passage in Jude, if taken in context and understood that it is a direct quote form Enoch would require that if you believe Scripture to be infallible then you would be forced to accept that the fallen angels mating with women is in fact a true account.

On a side note: The books of Revelation, 1st John and Hebrews are all condered by many modern scholars not to have been written by the individuals they are attributed to. I am not taking sides on the issue, only pointing out that to base the reasoning for disclusion solely on the authorship of the writing would pose problems for books that are already part of canon.

Some excellent points.

 

[imperfectchristian]

And if the question of whether or not fallen angels can mate with women is up for debate then feel free to debate it here.

The reason that most people generally believe that angels cannot reproduce is based in no small part on Jesus' statement in Mark 12:25..."When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. "

 

[BenAdam]

I am not arguing from that position. The fact remains that it is quoted several times in the New Testament which means (if you believe Christian protestant othodoxy) they are inspired and unfallible. The passage in Jude, if taken in context and understood that it is a direct quote form Enoch would require that if you believe Scripture to be infallible then you would be forced to accept that the fallen angels mating with women is in fact a true account.

On a side note: The books of Revelation, 1st John and Hebrews are all condered by many modern scholars not to have been written by the individuals they are attributed to. I am not taking sides on the issue, only pointing out that to base the reasoning for disclusion solely on the authorship of the writing would pose problems for books that are already part of canon.

Because something is quoted in part by Canonical books of the NT, doesn't make the entire text canonical (unless of course that book is also considered canonical, such as the Pentateuch). But let's look at Jude's quote:

Jude 14It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,
15to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which )ungodly sinners have spoken against Him." (NAS)

A couple of things to note:

The author of Jude states that "Enoch prophesied saying..." This gives credence to the fact that Enoch prophecied this, it doesn't say "It is written in the book of Enoch that". The prophecies of Enoch could have been handed down to Noah, who may have heard it himself and subsequently passed it on to his children.

Jude may give credence to the fact that the authorship is of Enoch, but I find that the first case is more likely.

So my contention is that the statements made in the Bible (of which I only know of the above) are most likely in fact that of Enoch, it gives no credence whatsoever to the canonicity of the Book of Enoch.

 

[nephilimiyr]

The way this discussion has gone is the exact reason why I avoid the Book of Enoch altogether when discussing this subject. Instead of discussing the merits of the subject itself the discussion gets lost into the merrits of the book.

There is more than enough evidence in the canical Bible that tells us who and what these beings were. There is no need to bring up the Book of Enoch.

For a good study, appendix 25 from the Companion Bible.

[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]The progeny of the fallen angels with the daughters of Adam (see notes on Genesis 6, and are called in Genesis 6,N[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman] e[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]-phil´-im, which means fallen ones (from naphal, to fall). What these beings were can be gathered only from Scripture. They were evidently great in size, as well as great in wickedness. They were superhuman, abnormal beings; and their destruction was necessary for the preservation of the human race, and for the faithfulness of Jehovah's Word (Genesis 3:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]15[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]). [/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]This was why the Flood was brouhgt "upon the world of the ungodly" ([/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]2[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]Peter 2:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]5[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]) as prophesied by Enoch (Jude [/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]14[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]). [/FONT]

[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]But we read of the N[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]e[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]philim again in Numbers 13:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]33[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman] : "there we saw the N[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]e[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]philim, the sons of Anak, which come of the N[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]e[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]philim". How, it may be asked, could this be, if they were all destroyed in the Flood ? The answer is contained in Genesis 6:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]4[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman], where we read: "There were N[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]e[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]philim in the earth in those days (that is to say, in the days of Noah); and also AFTER THAT, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became [the] mighty men (Hebrew gibbor, the heroes) which were of old, men of renown" (literally, men of the name, that is to say, who got a name and were renowned for their ungodliness). [/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]So that "after that", that is to say, after the Flood, there was a second irruption of these fallen angels, evidently smaller in number and more limited in area, for they were for the most part confined to Canaan, and were in fact known as "the nations of Canaan". It was for the destruction of these, that the sword of Israel was necessary, as the Flood had been before. [/FONT]

[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]As to the date of this second irruption, it was evidently soon after it became known that the seed was to come through Abraham; for, when he came out from Haran (Genesis 12:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]6[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]) and entered Canaan, the significant fact is stated: "The Canaanite was then (that is to say, already) in the land." And in Genesis 14:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]5[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman] they were already known as "Rephaim" and "Emim", and had established themselves as Ashteroth Karnaim and Shaveh Kiriathaim. [/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]In chapter 15:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]18-21[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman] they are enumerated and named among Canaanite Peoples: "Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, and the Amorites, and the Girga$#@%es, and the Jebusites" (Genesis 15:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]19-21[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]; compare Exodus 3:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]8,17[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]; 23:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]23[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]. Deuteronomy 7; 20:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]17[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]. Joshua 12:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]8[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]). [/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]These were to be cut off, and driven out, and utterly destroyed (Deuteronomy 20:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]17[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]. Joshua 3:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]10[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]). But Israel failed in this Joshua 13:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]13[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]; 15:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]63[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]; 16:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]10[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]; 17:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]18[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]. Judges 1:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]19,20,28,29,30-36[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]; 2:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]1-5[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]; 3:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]1-7[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]); and we know not how many got away to other countries to escape the general destruction. If this were recognized it would go far to solve many problems connected with Anthropology. [/FONT]

[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]As to their other names, they were called Anakim, from one Anak which came of theN[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]e[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]philim (Numbers 13:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]22,33[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]), and R[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]e[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]phaim, from Rapha, another notable one among them. [/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]From Deuteronomy 2:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]10[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman], they were known by some as Emim, and Horim, and Zamzummim (verse [/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]20,21[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]) and Avim, etc. [/FONT]

[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]As R[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]e[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]phaim they were well known, and are often mentioned: but, unfortunately, instead of this, their proper name, being preserved, it is variously translated as "dead", "deceased", or "giants". These R[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]e[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]phaim are to have no resurrection. This fact is stated in Isaiah 26:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]14[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman] (where the proper name is rendered "deceased", and verse [/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]19[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman], where it is rendered "the dead"). [/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]It is rendered "dead" seven times (Job 26:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]5[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]. Psalm 88:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]10[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]. Proverbs 2:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]18[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]; 9:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]18[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]; 21:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]16[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]. Isaiah 14:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]8[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]; 26:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]19[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]). [/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]It is rendered "deceased" in Isaiah 26:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]14[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman].[/FONT]

[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]It is retained as proper name "R[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]e[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]phaim" ten times (two being in the margin). Genesis 14:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]5[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]; 15:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]20[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]. Joshua 12:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]15[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman] (margin). [/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]2[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]Samuel 5:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]18,22[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]; 23:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]13[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]. [/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]1[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]Chronicles 11:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]15[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]; 14:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]9[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]; 20:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]4[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman] (margin). Isaiah 17:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]5[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]. [/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]In all other places it is rendered "giants" , Genesis 6:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]4[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman], Numbers 23:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]33[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman], where it is N[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]e[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]philim; and Job 16:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]14[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman], where it is gibbor. [/FONT]

[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]By reading all these passages the Bible student may know all that can be known about these beings. [/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]It is certain that the second irruption took place before Genesis 14, for there the R[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]e[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]phaim were mixed up with the five nations or peoples, which included Sodom and Gomorrha, and were defeated by the four kings under Chedorlaomer. Their principal locality was evidently "Ashtaroth Karnaim"; while the Emim were in the plain of Kiriathaim (Genesis 14:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]5[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]). [/FONT]

 

[nephilimiyr]

Anak was a noted descendant of the N[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]e[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]philim; and Rapha was another, giving their names respectively to different clans. Anak's father was Arba, the original builder of Hebron (Genesis 35:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]27[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]. Joshau 15:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]13[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]; 21:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]11[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]); and this Palestine branch of theAnakim was not called Abrahim after him, but Anakim after Anak. They were great, mighty, and tall (Deuteronomy 2:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]10,11,21,22,23[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]; 9:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]2[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]), evidently inspiring the ten spies with great fear (Numbers 12:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]33[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]). Og king of Bashan is described in Deuteronomy 3:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]11[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]). Their strength is seen in "the giant cities of Bashan" to-day; and we know not how far they may have been utilized by Egypt in the construction of buildings, which is still an unsolved problem. Arba was rebuilt by the Khabiri or confederates seven years before Zoan was built by Egyptian Pharoahs of the nineteenth dynasty. See note on Numbers 13:22[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]. If these N[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]e[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]philim, and their branch of R[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]e[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]phaim, were associated with Egypt, we have an explanation of the problem which has for ages perplexed all engineers, as to how those huge stones and monuments were brought together. Why not in Egypt as well as in "the giant cities of Bashan" which exist, as such, to this day? Moreover, we have in these mighty men, the "men of renown," the explanation of the origin of the Greek mythology. That mythology was no mere invention of the human brain, but it grew out of the traditions, and memories, and legends of the doings of that mighty race of beings; and was gradually evolved out of the "heroes" of Genesis 6:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]4[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]. The fact that they were supernatural in their origin formed an easy step to their being regarded as the demi-gods of the Greeks.Thus the Babylonian "Creation Tablets", the Egyptian "Book of the dead", the Greek mythology, and heathen Comogonies, which by some are set on an equality with Scripture, or by others adduced in support of it, are all the corruption and perversion of primitive truths, distorded in proportion as their origin was forgotten, and their memories faded away.[/FONT]

 

[BenAdam]

Neph,

I think you give the subject a fairer treatment than when the Book of Enoch is brought up as support.

However... there is still much supposition in that commentary.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Neph,

I think you give the subject a fairer treatment than when the Book of Enoch is brought up as support.

However... there is still much supposition in that commentary.

Ok, and if you truely believe this, "IMHO debate like this is important as long as the point is to learn and grow." and this is what you want to do, then point out those suppositions so that I may respond.

 

[BenAdam]

Well start with this entire passage:

The progeny of the fallen angels with the daughters of Adam (see notes on Genesis 6, and are called in Genesis 6,N e-phil´-im, which means fallen ones (from naphal, to fall). What these beings were can be gathered only from Scripture. They were evidently great in size, as well as great in wickedness. They were superhuman, abnormal beings; and their destruction was necessary for the preservation of the human race, and for the faithfulness of Jehovah's Word (Genesis 3:15). This was why the Flood was brouhgt "upon the world of the ungodly" (2Peter 2:5) as prophesied by Enoch (Jude 14).

Fallen could refer to man's fall for instance.

 

[imperfectchristian]

Because something is quoted in part by Canonical books of the NT, doesn't make the entire text canonical (unless of course that book is also considered canonical, such as the Pentateuch). But let's look at Jude's quote:

Jude 14It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,
15to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which )ungodly sinners have spoken against Him." (NAS)

A couple of things to note:

The author of Jude states that "Enoch prophesied saying..." This gives credence to the fact that Enoch prophecied this, it doesn't say "It is written in the book of Enoch that". The prophecies of Enoch could have been handed down to Noah, who may have heard it himself and subsequently passed it on to his children.

Jude may give credence to the fact that the authorship is of Enoch, but I find that the first case is more likely.

So my contention is that the statements made in the Bible (of which I only know of the above) are most likely in fact that of Enoch, it gives no credence whatsoever to the canonicity of the Book of Enoch.

The problem is that the book of Enoch was well known at the time that Jude was written and the first part of the now existing book of Enoch (which If I remember correctly is the part this quote in Jude is taken from) is generally accepted as being authentic...that is to say it is not believed it was tampered with whereas the rest of it is questionable.

So what you have then is:

The story from the book of Enoch present at the writing of Jude and Jude directly quoting it.

It is a very hard stretch to surmise that the writer of Jude did not believe the account in the book of Enoch to be genuine, unless you believe he simply borrowed from it and played to the superstitions of those he was addressing to more effectively communicate his message.

Now you could say that does not automatically mean that Enoch (even the first part) is inspired, but the fact remains that portions of it are quoted in the New Testament, not only by Jude but several other places.

So in one breath we say that none of the book that the NT quotes from is inspired or true and in the same breath we turn around and say that the quotes taken directly from that book are.

Do you not see the contradiction here?

 

[imperfectchristian]

Neph,

I think you give the subject a fairer treatment than when the Book of Enoch is brought up as support.

However... there is still much supposition in that commentary.

I can't believe you would say that...let me point this out again...the NT Testament quotes directly from the book of Enoch in several places and you are trying to say that it is a weak grounds of support for legitmacy?

Please...explain your position.

 

[BenAdam]

The problem is that the book of Enoch was well known at the time that Jude was written and the first part of the now existing book of Enoch (which If I remember correctly is the part this quote in Jude is taken from) is generally accepted as being authentic...that is to say it is not believed it was tampered with whereas the rest of it is questionable.

So what you have then is:

The story from the book of Enoch present at the writing of Jude and Jude directly quoting it.

It is a very hard stretch to surmise that the writer of Jude did not believe the account in the book of Enoch to be genuine, unless you believe he simply borrowed from it and played to the superstitions of those he was addressing to more effectively communicate his message.

Now you could say that does not automatically mean that Enoch (even the first part) is inspired, but the fact remains that portions of it are quoted in the New Testament, not only by Jude but several other places.

So in one breath we say that none of the book that the NT quotes from is inspired or true and in the same breath we turn around and say that the quotes taken directly from that book are.

Do you not see the contradiction here?

1. Please state where Enoch is quoted in the NT other than Jude. Some say a passage from 1 Peter may be, but I find that a stretch.

2. I stand by by assertion that a quote from Enoch could be inspired while the majority of the writting is not. We see that every day when Pastors, Prophets, etc say something from God but overall what they say isn't inspired.

3. Because something is true doesn't mean it is inspired. Saying Jesus ate fish is entirely true, but not inspired at all. Additionally a book can be filled with Inspiried things, true things, and untrue things. Just look at the Bible. Each word in it is not true. I point to what the Serpent said to Eve for instance. However the story is true, and the relating of the story is inspired.

 

[BenAdam]

I can't believe you would say that...let me point this out again...the NT Testament quotes directly from the book of Enoch in several places and you are trying to say that it is a weak grounds of support for legitmacy?

Please...explain your position.

Where does the NT use the Book of Enoch to support the position that the Nephilim were fallen angels?

Second, where in the OT is the book even mentioned?

I hold that the quote from Jude is inspired and true. Paul read from an altar of a Greek Temple, to an unknown God and spoke the truth of it, yet not all Greek Temples hold truth.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Well start with this entire passage:


Fallen could refer to man's fall for instance.

Actually, out of that whole commentary, the way they state the meaning of nephilim I disagree with. The meaning of the word, or name, literally means "feller" which actually means "bully" or "tyrant", as well as a large being.

When the Greek Septuagint was written, the word Nephilim was translated into the Greek as "gegenes". This is the same word used in Greek mythology for the Titans, creatures created through the interbreeding of the Greek gods and human beings. The English word genes and genetics are built around the very same root word as gegenes; genea meaning breed or kind.

However, the rest of the commentary I agree with.


Sources:
Strongs Concordance
World Book Dictionary
Kenneth S Wuest, Word Studies in the Greek

 

[BenAdam]

Titans were not from the cross breeding of the God's and humans, they were just a different class of divine being in Greek mythology. For instance, Prometheus was a Titan. Zeus and company were Olympians.

 

[BenAdam]

On a side note does anyone find it humerous that some sort of profanity filter was triggered on the below passage?

As to the date of this second irruption, it was evidently soon after it became known that the seed was to come through Abraham; for, when he came out from Haran (Genesis 12:6) and entered Canaan, the significant fact is stated: "The Canaanite was then (that is to say, already) in the land." And in Genesis 14:5 they were already known as "Rephaim" and "Emim", and had established themselves as Ashteroth Karnaim and Shaveh Kiriathaim. [FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]In chapter 15:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]18-21[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman] they are enumerated and named among Canaanite Peoples: "Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, and the Amorites, and the Girga$#@%es, and the Jebusites" (Genesis 15:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]19-21[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]; compare Exodus 3:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]8,17[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]; 23:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]23[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]. Deuteronomy 7; 20:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]17[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]. Joshua 12:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]8[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]). [/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]These were to be cut off, and driven out, and utterly destroyed (Deuteronomy 20:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]17[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]. Joshua 3:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]10[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]). But Israel failed in this Joshua 13:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]13[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]; 15:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]63[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]; 16:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]10[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]; 17:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]18[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]. Judges 1:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]19,20,28,29,30-36[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]; 2:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]1-5[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]; 3:[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]1-7[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]); and we know not how many got away to other countries to escape the general destruction. If this were recognized it would go far to solve many problems connected with Anthropology. [/FONT]

 

[BenAdam]

I do agree with the statements that these "Mighty Men of Renown" were the inspiration for the myths that ended up in Near Eastern, Greek, and Egyptian mythologies.