My problems with christianity, help me convert!

[Hydrangea]

Yes, this idea is one of things I find both absurd and illogical about Christianity. How can a supposedly goood and just being find it just and good to send people to be tortured for an eternity in hell?

Yeah, the eternity thing is kinda deep. Some ppl don't view hell as a real place place, but rather a state of being, an ultimate separation of God in which, of course, you'll be miserable as heck. The "fires" for some, mean the intense feeling you would have, that burning, overwhelming, sorrowful sensation of no longer having any presence of God in your life.


Eternity does sound harsh, but what isn't harsh is being rightfully punished for what you did. I can't really expect my father not to punish me for disobeying him when I was younger. When you live in a household where the parent doesn't even care enough to correct you or make u rightfully reap what u sow, that parent doesn't care enough. There are times when parents will let u off the hook and pardon things, and God has pardoned MANY a thing during the course of each individual's life, whatever it may be, and whether or not you are AWARE of what he is pardoning, but we can all think back to a time when we shoulda gotten punished for something and had no repercussion.


Best bet is just be a loving, righteous person and avoid the place altogether.

 

[Jeshurun30]

I think the main thing people ahve wrong with Christianity is the Christians. There are so many people who claim to be Christians who really have bad motives, and if you're not careful, you'll throw out the baby with the bath water. If you read the Bible for yourself, God will show you why it is better to be a Chrisitan than to choose another religion or something else. God is fun to worship and serve, and He makes your life a wonderful and happy thing, full of righteousness and peace and joy. So, I think, what would make a person NOT want to be a Christian. Two things. Disallusionment and sin. If you love sin more than you want to change, you won't get saved. And if you see too many things wrong with Christianity because you're looking at the poeple who CLAIM to be Christians, you wont' want to BE LIKE THEM. But God doesn't ask you to go to church or be like anybody else. He asks you to follow Him. Becasue He can make life a lot better. So I say, read the Book for yourself and then decide. At least, give it a chance. Be open minded and you'll decide what is right for you.

 

[Dharma Wheel]

Yeah, the eternity thing is kinda deep. Some ppl don't view hell as a real place place, but rather a state of being, an ultimate separation of God in which, of course, you'll be miserable as heck. The "fires" for some, mean the intense feeling you would have, that burning, overwhelming, sorrowful sensation of no longer having any presence of God in your life.

That only seems moderately more fair than an eternity of torture though.

Eternity does sound harsh, but what isn't harsh is being rightfully punished for what you did. I can't really expect my father not to punish me for disobeying him when I was younger. When you live in a household where the parent doesn't even care enough to correct you or make u rightfully reap what u sow, that parent doesn't care enough. There are times when parents will let u off the hook and pardon things, and God has pardoned MANY a thing during the course of each individual's life, whatever it may be, and whether or not you are AWARE of what he is pardoning, but we can all think back to a time when we shoulda gotten punished for something and had no repercussion.

I do believe that people should be punished for what they do in life, hence I believe in Naraka, but I don't believe that eternity is just because it doesn't have a reforming quality to it. Also, there is no crime worth an eternity of suffering, there really isn't. I certainly agree with ''reap what you sow'' as I believe in karma but I think that a time of suffering would balance out karma allowing some to progress towards enlightenment again. You seem, in my faith all souls do eventually get saved from samsara.

A just, merciful and caring parent wouldn't punish their children for an eternity just a a just, merciful and caring God wouldn't.

Best bet is just be a loving, righteous person and avoid the place altogether.

Agreed. I don't think faith is really that important in the end. To reach enlightenment people must live a good life of charity and love. Luckily all souls will, due to reincarnation, achieve peace in the world and reach nirvana.

 

[Aethelfrith]

I would say the biggest reason I am not a Christian is that no one can provide me with any reason why their faith would be better for me. They can provide no proof (like most faiths) why I should follow Christianity and Christianity is not there to help me to improve so what reason should I convert to Christianity from my current belief in which I can improve myself and reach enlightenment and everlasting union with (the) God(s).

 

[liftmeup]

I would say the biggest reason I am not a Christian is that no one can provide me with any reason why their faith would be better for me. They can provide no proof (like most faiths) why I should follow Christianity and Christianity is not there to help me to improve so what reason should I convert to Christianity from my current belief in which I can improve myself and reach enlightenment and everlasting union with (the) God(s).

Well, because Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. He is the saviour who brings us to God. Why would Christianity not help you to improve? The commandments, the beatitudes and the gifts of the spirit, if adhered to, pretty much make the perfect human being... If you are looking for proof of Christ look around at the signs and wonders: miraculous healings and apparitions. Check out Fatima, it's an astonishing story. Check out the miracle of the holy fire at easter. Listen to the millions of testimonies of faithful converts.. are they all deluded?

Your argument is nonsense since you clearly believe in paganism, for which you have no proof. Why believe in paganism?

 

[Dharma Wheel]

Well, because Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. He is the saviour who brings us to God. Why would Christianity not help you to improve? The commandments, the beatitudes and the gifts of the spirit, if adhered to, pretty much make the perfect human being... If you are looking for proof of Christ look around at the signs and wonders: miraculous healings and apparitions. Check out Fatima, it's an astonishing story. Check out the miracle of the holy fire at easter. Listen to the millions of testimonies of faithful converts.. are they all deluded?

Listen to millions of testimonies from faithful Hindus and Buddhists...are they deluded? I can also quite easily say that following the path of dhama, the noble eightfold path, is the way, the truth and the life.

What Aethelfrith clearly means is that Christians are judge by their faith and not the good things they do. In Christianity, contrary to Buddhism and heathenism, you don't reach enlightenment by being a good person but instead by a faith in the Christ; there is no reason to strive to be good if you sincerely believe in Christ.

In most Indo-European faiths, such as Buddhism, you reach enlightenment by being a good person (faith in Buddha, or Krishna, or Woden isn't necessary); but all souls will reach enlightenment in the end, unlike Christianity where the good will burn in hell if they don't believe. You see, in Christianity some souls reach bliss and some stay in a hell for an eternity.

Your argument is nonsense since you clearly believe in paganism, for which you have no proof. Why believe in paganism?

Actually his argument is sound. He says that all faiths provide no real tangible truth, this includes his own belief system and my own (Buddhism). He doesn't, and I have this on good authority, try to convert others and he doesn't claim that his faith has visible truths.

I do however find heathenism and Buddhism far more logical than Christianity because they primarily work on a system of balance (karma) and don't feature a ridiculous permanent hell; naraka and even hel for instance, serve a perpose; reforming ''offenders'' - what we call in the English legal system ''utilitarian'' - unlike the hell of Christianity which neither acts as a deterrent or as a utilitarian prison. It is illogical and unjustifiably cruel.

 

[[serious]]

If you are looking for proof of Christ look around at the signs and wonders: miraculous healings

which occur with no greater frequency than spontaneous remissions in atheists/control groups

and apparitions.

I know of no apparitions which have no natural explanations.

Check out Fatima, it's an astonishing story.

I assume you mean the miracle of the sun, which was not observed by everyone present or in the same way by those who did notice anything odd. No scientific observations revealed any irregularities.

Check out the miracle of the holy fire at easter.

Which can be achieved by dipping the wicks in white phosphorus. Given that the preparation of the candles occurs without any witnesses, the likelyhood of fraud/tampering is high.

Listen to the millions of testimonies of faithful converts.. are they all deluded?

Your argument is nonsense since you clearly believe in paganism, for which you have no proof. Why believe in paganism?

to be fair here, if you are going to approach alleged miracles in the christian faith with such credulity, you should look at purported miracles in other faiths using the same standards of proof.

 

[razzelflabben]

I would say the biggest reason I am not a Christian is that no one can provide me with any reason why their faith would be better for me. They can provide no proof (like most faiths) why I should follow Christianity and Christianity is not there to help me to improve so what reason should I convert to Christianity from my current belief in which I can improve myself and reach enlightenment and everlasting union with (the) God(s).

This isn't exactly the same argument I hear a lot, but not so different, but when posed with the following question, everyone suddenly disappears, so let's see if you do better. What would be "proof" what kind of thing would you be looking for. You talk about better oneself, and yet the bible teaches love and strength through the indwelling of the HS aka God....that seems to be a lot more "bettering" than any religious belief I have run across, loving by allowing God to do it through you is about as bettering as it gets. But you want proof that you can better your life, what would that proof involve, what would it include, if the teaching isn't enough, and the practice of it isn't enough, what is? Or are you referring to all those who claim to believe but live as if they don't? The hypocrites that exist in every religion, are they the ones you are referring to?

 

[razzelflabben]

Listen to millions of testimonies from faithful Hindus and Buddhists...are they deluded? I can also quite easily say that following the path of dhama, the noble eightfold path, is the way, the truth and the life.

What Aethelfrith clearly means is that Christians are judge by their faith and not the good things they do. In Christianity, contrary to Buddhism and heathenism, you don't reach enlightenment by being a good person but instead by a faith in the Christ; there is no reason to strive to be good if you sincerely believe in Christ.

now here is where I am beginning to have problems with your comments....what you do with your choice is up to you, understanding Christianity is another matter....Where what we do or don't do is not going to get us into heaven, the bible tells us that when we become a believer, the Holy Spirit, that is God becomes our helper to love. Now love here is the biblical love, and the shortest possible definition I can apply to it is putting others above ourselves. It isn't a warm fuzzy feeling, it is help, obedience, humility, etc. I Cor. 13 gives us a pretty good picture though not a complete one....anyway, christianity at it's core is a call to love all men, to love God, with a sacrifical love that is only possible through the power of the Holy Spirit living within. That doesn't seem at all like what you are posting here, though admittedly, I might have missed something.

In most Indo-European faiths, such as Buddhism, you reach enlightenment by being a good person (faith in Buddha, or Krishna, or Woden isn't necessary); but all souls will reach enlightenment in the end, unlike Christianity where the good will burn in hell if they don't believe. You see, in Christianity some souls reach bliss and some stay in a hell for an eternity.

when our whole "enlightenment" or goal as it were is on our ability to be "good" what happens when we fail? If all will reach "enlightenment" what insentive is there to even try? Why not do what we want, and then just die and find enlightenment then? You talk about how these other religions help you to be a better person yet you have not offered any way they do so, nor any help they might offer for you to acheive that goal. All I see in what you've said is that I can be as evil as I want to be and when I die, I'll be just like everyone else, at least as far as Indo-European faiths such as buddhism go. How do they spur you to live a good life? what motivation is there to be anything but what you feel like doing? In fact, one of the things that is stumping me is that most people object to christianity because of the "Godly" life that is commanded, you are complaining because that "Godly" life isn't commanded....I am getting really confused by what you think christianity says....

Actually his argument is sound. He says that all faiths provide no real tangible truth, this includes his own belief system and my own (Buddhism). He doesn't, and I have this on good authority, try to convert others and he doesn't claim that his faith has visible truths.

I do however find heathenism and Buddhism far more logical than Christianity because they primarily work on a system of balance (karma) and don't feature a ridiculous permanent hell; naraka and even hel for instance, serve a perpose; reforming ''offenders'' - what we call in the English legal system ''utilitarian'' - unlike the hell of Christianity which neither acts as a deterrent or as a utilitarian prison. It is illogical and unjustifiably cruel.

So then can we assume that your problem with christianity is that the balance between a heaven and a hell is a balance you are not willing to live with, but a balance between everything else is good, the yin and yang as it were of life, simply doesn't work in eternity, only on earth?

 

[Aibrean]

I can't convert you. Salvation is received by grace through faith. Faith can not be brought upon a person by another, it's of a personal and spiritual nature.

In regards to God forgiving: Even from the beginning of sin there was always a sacrifice or offering. Just look at Cain and Abel. Jesus was the fulfillment of the sacrifice depicted in the OT, he is the ultimate Lamb.

 

[matilda1991]

The laws re stoning have been eliminated by Jesus Christ Himself (see John 8:1-11). Understanding the Old Testament (OT) cannot be quickly explained except that one should follow the 10 commandments as a way of living everyday life. Jesus Christ sums up the OT in Matthew 7:12 & Matthew 22:37-40. To understand our predicament with sin (read Romans 1 & 2; a good OT reading of how to deal with it can be found in Ezekiel 18 and Ezekiel 33:10-20 though. A good overview of much of the OT can be found in St. Stephen's testimony before the Sanhedrin in Acts 7. Also read Matthew 5,6, & 7 which is the basic summary our Lord gives us of His Gospel. Note the focus on attending to our heart, loving God & our neighbor,prayer, being charitable etc. these are what our Lord wants of us. Understanding this and then giving our heart to Him can be next found by reading Romans 10 (focus on vs. 9,10, & 13). The key to salvation by grace in accordance with good works (not works based salvation) is explained in Ephesians 2:8-10. These are the important aspects of our faith and in context should seem most practicle (although that is a limited but ok way to see it). Hope this is of some help. Also not every non Christian is going to hell but their predicament is more perilous so all the more reason for us not to judge but pray for our neighbors.

Just start going to church and go for a while. Experience church and the people in it. Experience God in the church. Don't worry about problems. Concentrate on God. There are not a lot of people being saved on a forum. God to church and see what it's all about and give it a chance. Concentrate on the positive parts of the Bible no one agrees with everything. Give God a chance. He has given us His Son and many other abundances.

 

[matilda1991]

which occur with no greater frequency than spontaneous remissions in atheists/control groupsI know of no apparitions which have no natural explanations. I assume you mean the miracle of the sun, which was not observed by everyone present or in the same way by those who did notice anything odd. No scientific observations revealed any irregularities. Which can be achieved by dipping the wicks in white phosphorus. Given that the preparation of the candles occurs without any witnesses, the likelyhood of fraud/tampering is high.
to be fair here, if you are going to approach alleged miracles in the christian faith with such credulity, you should look at purported miracles in other faiths using the same standards of proof.

All this post is doing is dissing a Catholic and Catholic beliefs.

 

[[serious]]

All this post is doing is dissing a Catholic and Catholic beliefs.

Not at all. There is debate within the catholic church about how credulous to be about purported miracles. I don't know of any catholic who believes that every claim of the miraculous must be a miracle. I hold miracles to a high standard. There must be no rational explaination and observations must be properly confirmed. Before I look to the supernatural I have to look to the natural. In this case, the natural adequately explains it.

 

[razzelflabben]

Not at all. There is debate within the catholic church about how credulous to be about purported miracles. I don't know of any catholic who believes that every claim of the miraculous must be a miracle. I hold miracles to a high standard. There must be no rational explaination and observations must be properly confirmed. Before I look to the supernatural I have to look to the natural. In this case, the natural adequately explains it.

I have personally experienced a couple of incidents that defy "nature" even some of the atheists here have tried to find a alternative viable explaination but every one fell way short. So they were left with saying, "out of ideas, but there is a natural explanation, we're sure". I guess my point is, when you really see and experience a miracle in your life, whether internal or external, your perspective on things changes, and it is no longer about catholics or protestants, good or evil, it suddenly becomes about how did such happen and why would it happen to and for you. There is a whole lot of soul searching so to speak and the why's are as important as the how's.

 

[[serious]]

I have personally experienced a couple of incidents that defy "nature" even some of the atheists here have tried to find a alternative viable explaination but every one fell way short. So they were left with saying, "out of ideas, but there is a natural explanation, we're sure". I guess my point is, when you really see and experience a miracle in your life, whether internal or external, your perspective on things changes, and it is no longer about catholics or protestants, good or evil, it suddenly becomes about how did such happen and why would it happen to and for you. There is a whole lot of soul searching so to speak and the why's are as important as the how's.

So have I. I have no problem with the idea that miracles occur, but that doesn't mean I'm going to look for a miracle under every rock.

 

[razzelflabben]

So have I. I have no problem with the idea that miracles occur, but that doesn't mean I'm going to look for a miracle under every rock.

I think the greatest miracles of all are hidden under the rocks of our self. The rocks of selfish desires, hard hearts, hidden agendas, defiant attitudes, you know, the rocks of self that we use to build walls and barriers.

 

[[serious]]

I think the greatest miracles of all are hidden under the rocks of our self. The rocks of selfish desires, hard hearts, hidden agendas, defiant attitudes, you know, the rocks of self that we use to build walls and barriers.

I believe we should not go seeking miracles or signs. I also don't share personal testimony of such interventions I have witnessed. If God wishes to show others miracles, he will. Those that I have seen are for the benefit of those present.

 

[razzelflabben]

I believe we should not go seeking miracles or signs. I also don't share personal testimony of such interventions I have witnessed. If God wishes to show others miracles, he will. Those that I have seen are for the benefit of those present.

I would think you missed the point of what I am saying....

 

[stephenhg2009]

Wow man i'm having the same problems!! Where you live determines who you worship.. so why should u be blamed because of what your society believes.

I hate the concept of hell because the punishment doesn't seem to fit the crime. I mean eternal suffering for believing in a religion other than christianity because it was the way you were taught to believe.

 

[razzelflabben]

Wow man i'm having the same problems!! Where you live determines who you worship.. so why should u be blamed because of what your society believes.

I hate the concept of hell because the punishment doesn't seem to fit the crime. I mean eternal suffering for believing in a religion other than christianity because it was the way you were taught to believe.

That is to assume that hell is the punishment, from Gen through Rev. we see that it isn't the punishment but rather the consequence of sin. Christ is the remedy for that consequence.