[moved]The American Revolution was a sin. Agree or not ?

[fi11222]

Jesus said "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" (Matt 22:21) This was in a context where the Pharisee opponents of Jesus were trying to trick Him into making a statement in favor of rebellion against Rome. The response given by Jesus made it clear that he did not support rebellion. He was no Barabbas, no zealot.

But what were doing the founders of the United states in 1776 and after, if not rebelling against their sovereign, i.e. their "Caesar". Is there a way to justifiy rebellion on a biblical basis in this particular case? It doesn't seem to me. The King of England was not a particular bad ruler at that time. Indeed he was better than most and, in particular, he had become much more tolerant of religious plurality than any monarch in Europe.

In any case, Jesus did not say "Render render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, provided he is a decent guy", he just said "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" full stop. That is why in the 2nd and 3d centuries, christians preferred to be martyred rather than revolt.

I believe that if you look at the American Revolution as the sin I think it is, many things start to make much more sense. In particular, it becomes far easier to understand why the US is becoming increasingly secular today. The US was created by secular people, "secular humanists", we might almost say. Benjamin Franklin was a friend of Voltaire and most of the other founders were either deists or Freemasons or both. No wonder Americans are becoming increasinly faithless. For every sin, there is a price.

 

[Ironhold]

The colonists were just fine with the colonial government passing taxes.

The issue was that the colonists didn't have a seat in Parliament, and so bristled at the prospect of being taxed without also being given a chance to voice their concerns about said taxes.

 

[dogs4thewin]

I don't know a great deal about colonial history but was it not popular uprising against taxes without representation?

Sounds a reasonable reason to revolt. Going cap in hand to the French however, was heresy of the first water (I kid).

Yes, it was not so much PAYING taxes as it was being required to do so without representation.

 

[Jahrooshshalom]

What's the point of the thread? The Revolution is past history America is free and what she is now because of it.
Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's. The thing about scripture is that all things are God's.
Now what?
Paul's teachings sided with the Roman authority. Jesus teachings sided with God's authority. If one has to choose they must choose God.

 

[Tallguy88]

ADMIN HAT

Thread moved from News and Current Events to here.

This thread is now in a Christian Only area and one non Christian post has been removed.

 

[Tallguy88]

Yes, rebellion was a sin. St. Paul tells us we must obey the lawful government because they are appointed by God.

 

[fi11222]

I am troubled by the way in which many Christians in the US claim to be "patriots" as if it was part of their faith.

The point is that it isn't and cannot be, for the reasons mentioned above.

As a Christian, one can of course be involved in politics, but not in order to glorify sin. American patriotism necessarily involves the glorification of the founding fathers and of the stars and stripes among other things. But Washington et al. committed a gross sin in what they did and the stars and stripe is the symbol of that sin. So a Christian should steer clear of those things in deeds but also in speech, as Paul says in Eph. 5:3 Otherwise, we are serving two masters.

 

[Albion]

I believe that if you look at the American Revolution as the sin I think it is, many things start to make much more sense. In particular, it becomes far easier to understand why the US is becoming increasingly secular today. The US was created by secular people, "secular humanists", we might almost say. Benjamin Franklin was a friend of Voltaire and most of the other founders were either deists or Freemasons or both. No wonder Americans are becoming increasinly faithless. For every sin, there is a price.

Let's think this through.

According to the theory, the American Revolution was a sin, so God got even with us for that--after 200 years of being a beacon of hope to millions of oppressed peoples in the old world, having unprecedented prosperity, being a model of democratic government for other countries around the globe, and for making the difference for the cause of freedom in two World Wars.

Either God is awfully slow on the trigger or he wasn't all that mad in the first place.

 

[fi11222]

According to the theory, the American Revolution was a sin, so God got even with us for that--after 200 years of being a beacon of hope to millions of oppressed peoples in the old world, having unprecedented prosperity, being a model of democratic government for other countries around the globe, and for making the difference for the cause of freedom in two World Wars.

200 years is the blink of an eye for the Deity.

But this is not the point anyway. The question is: can a Christian be an American patriot ? But if he is, he is glorifying sin. Ergo, he cannot.

 

[Albion]

200 years is the blink of an eye for the Deity.

You're pretty much obliged to say that. Problem is, it's not a blink of an eye for humans and human history--quite a lot of it, in fact--during which time our country was (by almost everyone's reckoning) immeasurably blessed and, more than that, a blessing to other peoples. Your thesis, IOW, doesn't hold up.

But this is not the point anyway.

Not any more.

 

[fi11222]

You're pretty much obliged to say that. Problem is, it's not a blink of an eye for humans and human history--quite a lot of it, in fact--during which time our country was (by almost everyone's reckoning) immeasurably blessed and, more than that, a blessing to other peoples. Your thesis, IOW, doesn't hold up.
Not any more.

You reason in human terms which, alas, befits an Anglican ... But what GOD thinks is what matters.

 

[Albion]

You reason in human terms which, alas, befits an Anglican ... But what GOD thinks is what matters.

Well, you started us off with an OP that relied upon human terms, human history, and human reasoning. Only when it fell though did you decide to say that it's what God thinks that matters--which is of course what everyone on all sides of this issue knows and agrees to.

As a comment, it does nothing to save that idea about the American Revolution bringing retribution from the Almighty.

 

[bbbbbbb]

You reason in human terms which, alas, befits an Anglican ... But what GOD thinks is what matters.

And you apparently have an inside track into the mind of God.

To take your analogy, one can equally argue that the downfall of Nazi Germany was a sin because Christians opposed the God-ordained government of Germany. As a result God has punished Germany immeasurably with peace and prosperity.

If that is the case, I opt for such punishment on all of mankind.

 

[fi11222]

To take your analogy, one can equally argue that the downfall of Nazi Germany was a sin because Christians opposed the God-ordained government of Germany. As a result God has punished Germany immeasurably with peace and prosperity.

Goodwin's law at work ...

What about just sticking to the point eh ?

 

[Albion]

Goodwin's law at work ...

What about just sticking to the point eh ?

Which point did you want to go with--the original or one of the two you switched to later? God is in charge or you don't understand Anglicanism? LOL That's quite a grab bag of ideas looking for a point, wouldn't you say??

 

[pdudgeon]

well, you have yet to prove that it was a sin.

secondly the 'render unto Casar" scripture has to do with temple taxes and government taxes.
two different taxes, two different govering bodies, and two different monetary systems--thus two different coins;
one for the temple, the other for the government.
sooo, Jesus was saying 'give the temple coin to the temple, and the government's coin to the government.

you've got to read scripture in context---not just make up your own scenario.

third, you've got to do a better job of reading history.
There was more than just one reason for the passengers on the ships to come to America.
Many of them came to set up trading posts and such as company representatives.
Others came for the available land,
and some came for the freedom to worship as they pleased.
Three different groups, three different reaons.

one last thing here.
If revolution against the ruling government and leaving a country was a sin,
how do you explain the book of Exodus?

 

[Tallguy88]

Here is the relevant scripture:

"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.2Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer.5Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed."

Romans 13:1-7 ESV

 

[pdudgeon]

Here is the relevant scripture:

"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.2Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer.5Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed."

Romans 13:1-7 ESV

that works fine for some. but not all rulers are godly rulers, as we have seen throughout history.

 

[Albion]

Smartass brits ...

The American revolution was a sin, ergo it is not possible to be both an American patriot and a Christian.

This is the point of this thread.

Ok, it that's the one you want to go with, prove it.

 

[Tallguy88]

that works fine for some. but not all rulers are godly rulers, as we have seen throughout history.

St Paul wrote in the context of the Pagan Roman Empire. They were opposing the Jews, trying to subvert their religion and traditions. They would soon begin persecuting and martyring Christians. Within a generation, they would destroy the Temple and massacre all the people in Jerusalem and scatter the Jews to the four winds. And yet, St. Paul says to obey them.