Mount Rushmore

GoingByzantine

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With all the hoopla over the Confederate flag, its easy to forget that there are plenty of other racist symbols in America.

Mount Rushmore for instance was built on top of a Sioux holy site, by a sculptor who also carved figures of Confederate leaders into a Georgia mountain. The United States forcefully stole the Black Hills from the Sioux, kidnapped and "educated" Sioux children, confined Native Americans to reservations, and then carved up their holy mountain with half done portraits of white men. Hmmmm....that seems pretty hateful and racist.

Yet where is the outrage over this monument? As we speak there are probably tens of thousands of U.S. citizens flocking to Mount Rushmore for a 4th of July fireworks show. Mount Rushmore clearly is a symbol of "national pride" to many people, and they are willing to look past the fact that it has imperialistic qualities left over from manifest destiny. Is this not what the CSA flag is to many Southerners? A symbol of "pride" that has many negative connotations?

As Catholics we need to evaluate whether it is proper to be venerating national symbols, like flags or monuments, at all.
 
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Fish and Bread

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The Presidents carrved into the rock are not themselves symbols of past atrocities committed against Native Americans. They are just images of Presidents known for other things. Most of them had nothing to do with what happened to Native Americans, right? To be honest, its late and I am struggling to remember which four Presidents are depicted.

In any event, that's a very different scenario than a flag specifically developed for military units fighting on the pro-slavery side of a war about slavery that mostly crops up again to endorse racist policies like segregation and such every so often . There wasn't like 200 or 250 years where there was a country called the Confederacy that did a variety of things good and bad. The Southern states have mostly historically been represented by the United States flag and the state flags of each state, historically. In fact, the flag in my avatar is one that was flying over Fort Sumter in South Carolina when rebels fired on it and ignited the Civil War, and the Union never removed the stars representing each if the states that tried to leave, to symbolize that we were one nation, indivisible.

It's the 4th of July, let's celebrate the country that the south has been part of from 1776 to the present, along with the north, and the good things that happened in that time for all Americans, instead of trying to somehow redeem a symbol like the Confederate flag that has had little historical presence apart from in connection with slavery, segregation, and other racist practices.
 
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Sumwear

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The Presidents carrved into the rock are not themselves symbols of past atrocities committed against Native Americans. They are just images of Presidents known for other things. Most of them had nothing to do with what happened to Native Americans, right? To be honest, its late and I am struggling to remember which four Presidents are depicted.

jefferson most certainly had an opinion on the natives. it sure wasn't a pretty one. fact still remains that that mountain was sacred for natives living there, and those very same natives still have disdain for it.
 
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SolomonVII

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People are talking about removing the Jefferson monument too.
Huckleberry Finn and Tom Sawyer have been scrubbed from reading lists. Gone with the Wind is now under scrutiny.
The one simple gesture of compassion and solidarity of an American governor removing a flag from being flown from the grounds of the legislature has really snowballed and exposed the desire to erase vast swaths of America's past away from memory.
 
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Sumwear

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People are talking about removing the Jefferson monument too.
Huckleberry Finn and Tom Sawyer have been scrubbed from reading lists. Gone with the Wind is now under scrutiny.
The one simple gesture of compassion and solidarity of an American governor removing a flag from being flown from the grounds of the legislature has really snowballed and exposed the desire to erase vast swaths of America's past away from memory.

don't forget our currency. putting new people on our banknotes and coins except for franklin and lincoln.
 
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SolomonVII

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don't forget our currency. putting new people on our banknotes and coins except for franklin and lincoln.
I wonder how much of anything recognizable will be left of America before people find a vision of America that they actually feel good about?
 
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GoingByzantine

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The Presidents carrved into the rock are not themselves symbols of past atrocities committed against Native Americans. They are just images of Presidents known for other things. Most of them had nothing to do with what happened to Native Americans, right? To be honest, its late and I am struggling to remember which four Presidents are depicted.

In any event, that's a very different scenario than a flag specifically developed for military units fighting on the pro-slavery side of a war about slavery that mostly crops up again to endorse racist policies like segregation and such every so often . There wasn't like 200 or 250 years where there was a country called the Confederacy that did a variety of things good and bad. The Southern states have mostly historically been represented by the United States flag and the state flags of each state, historically. In fact, the flag in my avatar is one that was flying over Fort Sumter in South Carolina when rebels fired on it and ignited the Civil War, and the Union never removed the stars representing each if the states that tried to leave, to symbolize that we were one nation, indivisible.

It's the 4th of July, let's celebrate the country that the south has been part of from 1776 to the present, along with the north, and the good things that happened in that time for all Americans, instead of trying to somehow redeem a symbol like the Confederate flag that has had little historical presence apart from in connection with slavery, segregation, and other racist practices.

Well, Thomas Jefferson made the Louisiana Purchase, buying land that never legally belonged to France or its predecessor Spain. It legally belonged to Native Americans, it just so happens that Europeans rode up in their boats and said "this is mine now".

Jefferson was the creator of the "civilization program", a racist and ethnocentric policy where the United States would loan many trade goods to Native Americans and force the natives into debt. Once the natives were in debt they would have no choice but to sell their land to Jefferson. Jefferson could then begin"civilizing" them.

Washington also had a Native American "civilizing" policy, though at least he tried to protect Native Americans from his war hawk friends in the Continental Congress.

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Now on to good old Abraham Lincoln, one of the most beloved people in American history. Lincoln sent General John Pope to conquer a starving band of Sioux (you know the same group that lived in the Black hills, and had their holy site desecrated) who were owed money by the U.S. government and needed the payment to buy food. Lincoln did not like the fact that the Sioux were demanding their money, so he told General Pope to wipe them out. His exacts words were:

"It is my purpose to utterly exterminate the Sioux. Destroy everything belonging to them and force them out of the plains, unless, as I suggest, you can capture them. They are to be treated as maniacs or wild beasts, and by no means as people with whom treaties or compromises can be made." (Dunkerley, 2000)

Lincoln did capture many of them, and then he had them executed. Lincoln had 38 natives hung at the same time, in what is the largest mass hanging in U.S. history.

Of course, it does not end there. Lincoln also ordered the invasion of Navajo land, where soldiers raped and pillaged the land.

If you want to read about Teddy Roosevelt, here is a non academic source:

http://nativeamericannetroots.net/diary/1093

Or you can check out Chapter 4 of Theodore Roosevelt and the Idea of Race by Thomas Dyer.
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If anything, a giant statue of white men carved into the side of an important Native American cultural site is worse than the Confederate flag. Especially when you take into account that the men on the statue were not exactly good buddies with the greater Native American community. Lincoln, the man that butchered the Sioux, has his face on their mountain...that alone should be more offensive then a flag.

This to me is just evidence of how little Americans know about their own history. Everybody is banding up to ban the Confederate flag, and any media that depicts it. Yet because Mount Rushmore is a symbol of the United States (not the Confederacy), it is "ok", even if it does represent the conquering and genocide of a people.
 
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SolomonVII

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I am pretty sure that there are two sides to every story. The truth is usually better served by attempting to analyse the story from as many points of view as possible.
I am not sure if that is the focus of a modern education any more though.
 
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Red Fox

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jefferson most certainly had an opinion on the natives. it sure wasn't a pretty one.

No, it wasn't.

fact still remains that that mountain was sacred for natives living there, and those very same natives still have disdain for it.

I don't live there, but I still have a great disdain for it.
 
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Red Fox

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I wonder how much of anything recognizable will be left of America before people find a vision of America that they actually feel good about?

And what exactly is there to feel good about this country? What good comes from the birth of a nation that brought massive death and destruction to my ancestors? What good comes from a nation that has been racist and oppressive of its minority people since before its inception and is still racist and oppressive today? Why should we feel good about the historical fact that this nation was actually founded on white supremacy and white privilege or the historical fact that this nation was built on the genocide of Native Americans and on the enslavement of African Americans? The whole premise that this nation was founded and built on "liberty and justice for all" and on freedom is nothing but an historical perpetuated lie. This nation has been racist and oppressive of its minority people since before its inception and that's nothing to be proud of.
 
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MikeK

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On one hand, the Washingtin Monument and its likeness are not commonly used by white suppremecists as a symbol, so I see no reason to give it mug attention in that regard. Further, carving the mountain was not diene for the intended purpose of protecting the "right" to dehumanize a particular population like the creation off the Confederacy was.

On the other hand, I think it is silly to venerate politicians or their images and I have no interest in visiting Presedential monuments. I find their homes and artifacts interesting, but I have no desire to celebrate them as men. If it were decided to remove their monuments and take all of them off our currency I'd be okay with it.
 
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SolomonVII

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And what exactly is there to feel good about this country? What good comes from the birth of a nation that brought massive death and destruction to my ancestors? What good comes from a nation that has been racist and oppressive of its minority people since before its inception and is still racist and oppressive today? Why should we feel good about the historical fact that this nation was actually founded on white supremacy and white privilege or the historical fact that this nation was built on the genocide of Native Americans and on the enslavement of African Americans? The whole premise that this nation was founded and built on "liberty and justice for all" and on freedom is nothing but an historical perpetuated lie. This nation has been racist and oppressive of its minority people since before its inception and that's nothing to be proud of.
I am not going to try to dissuade you. It is your life. Live it according to the principles that you chose to.
Just be aware that you are not alone. Many powerful forces and people are striving to undo the country.
 
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Sword of the Lord

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I recently went to Nashville with my husband during one of his business trips and I felt like I walked into a ever present shrine for Andrew Jackson. I thought I was going to be sick. And you would have thought I was the novelty there, being asked all sorts of questions about what it's like to be Native American by complete strangers. I'm sure there has to be other Native Americans who live in Nashville, but some of those people acted like they had never seen an Indian before. Suffice to say, my husband was thankful that I kept my tongue, especially around his co-workers, but it sure wasn't easy for me to do. I really wanted to unleash my wrath on some of those ignorant people.
Maybe you should have. And then they would have unleashed theirs right back, Tennessee style.
 
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Red Fox

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With all the hoopla over the Confederate flag, its easy to forget that there are plenty of other racist symbols in America.

Mount Rushmore for instance was built on top of a Sioux holy site, by a sculptor who also carved figures of Confederate leaders into a Georgia mountain. The United States forcefully stole the Black Hills from the Sioux, kidnapped and "educated" Sioux children, confined Native Americans to reservations, and then carved up their holy mountain with half done portraits of white men. Hmmmm....that seems pretty hateful and racist.

Yet where is the outrage over this monument? As we speak there are probably tens of thousands of U.S. citizens flocking to Mount Rushmore for a 4th of July fireworks show. Mount Rushmore clearly is a symbol of "national pride" to many people, and they are willing to look past the fact that it has imperialistic qualities left over from manifest destiny. Is this not what the CSA flag is to many Southerners? A symbol of "pride" that has many negative connotations?

As Catholics we need to evaluate whether it is proper to be venerating national symbols, like flags or monuments, at all.

I don't know if this is off topic of your OP, but a friend of mine shared this quote of MLK on Facebook and I wanted to share it with you.

“Our nation was born in genocide when it embraced the doctrine that the original American, the Indian, was an inferior race. Even before there were large numbers of Negroes on our shore, the scar of racial hatred had already disfigured colonial society. From the sixteenth century forward, blood flowed in battles over racial supremacy. We are perhaps the only nation which tried as a matter of national policy to wipe out its indigenous population. Moreover, we elevated that tragic experience into a noble crusade. Indeed, even today we have not permitted ourselves to reject or feel remorse for this shameful episode. Our literature, our films, our drama, our folklore all exalt it. Our children are still taught to respect the violence which reduced a red-skinned people of an earlier culture into a few fragmented groups herded into impoverished reservations.”
 
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Fish and Bread

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Also worth considering is that the images of Mount Rushmore are a large scale historically significant work of art (How good the art is, of course, is a matter of opinion). We don't want to start blowing up works of art like the Taliban destroyed large ancient outdoor Buddhas.

What folks against flying the confederate flag have, in essence, been typically saying, is an echo of President Obama's comments that "it belongs in a museum". Mount Rushmore is itself a museum in a sense as the objects can't be moved and the land the mountain has been on has been set aside for a historical purpose. We're aren't making smaller scale copies and erecting them outside statehouses and putting them in front of our houses and on the back of pickup trucks.

Also, whatever shortcomings these Presidents may have had, their attitude towards what would have historically been called Indian Affairs was not what they are predominantly known for or their chief contribution to history. The Confederate flag always has been and always will be intricately tied to and known as a symbol that promotes rebellion in favor of maintaining slavery and opposition to racial equality promoting policies like desegregation. Those Presidents didn't get their busts engraved into that mountain because of what they did or didn't do in regard to Native Americans, but the Confederate flag absolutely existed and continues to exist because of the racist policies and viewpoints that were the Confederacy's and thus the flag's reason for being.

I do not in any way condone the policies of European colonists towards Native Americans. Those policies were wrong. But there is more to the history of North America than that. Also, I think it is worth mentioning that if the English had not colonized the east coast, formed a nation, and pushed westward, the Spanish, the French, the Dutch, the Portuguese, and others were ready, willing, and able. It was historically inevitable that someone would do it and several nations were actively trying. Russia made a failed attempt to push from the west, too, if I recall correctly.
 
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Red Fox

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There appears to be an underlining subtle attitude that Native Americans just need to get over the past atrocities committed against their ancestors. I can't help but wonder if a non-Native American would ever go up to a Jew and tell them to just get over the Holocaust. It's the past after all, so therefore, it should no longer matter.

"America was built on two monumental crimes: The genocide of the Native American and the enslavement of the Africans. The tendency of official America is to memorize other people's crimes and to forget its own to seek a moral high ground as a pretext to ignore real issues." - Mahmood Mamdani
 
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