God's Fighter
Bent
I believe the God of the bible tells me it's my duty to care for the hungry, the sick, the shut ins and the prisoners even. I am to love them all and suffer for them, because I would then be loving Christ and suffering for Him just as He loved me and suffered for me.
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SearchingStudent
Senior Member
And Mitt outlawed abortion in Mass. when he was governor too, right? That guy has switched positions more often than I do in my sleep.
And...can you show me a direct link between any "murder" committed by the current POTUS and the man himself? You've had 4 GOP presidents since Roe v. Wade was decided by the Supreme Court...and guess what...abortion is still legal.
Get off the single issue thing. There are MUCH bigger issues. The GOP wants to outlaw abortion but they don't want to do a darn thing to feed, clothe, house, educate or provide medical care for all those children. Pro-life means AFTER birth too.
Try thinking about that instead of the knee-jerk baloney.
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SharonL
Senior Veteran
The Mormons set an example of what the Bible says about helping others. They are a community when someone needs help - everyone is there, no matter what it is. They are good, helpful, truthful people.
A president does not run the country on his opionions alone. Unlike what this president does, if he does not like something the Congress says to do - he just goes around it. Roe vs Wade should be overturned, but we probably won't see it. How the mentality has come about which thinks nothing of wiping away a life and moving on has been brainwashed into our society. The more that God is removed from our society and replaced with trying to allow every other religion to have their say in this country we will continue to lose moral ground.
A president does not run the country on his opionions alone. Unlike what this president does, if he does not like something the Congress says to do - he just goes around it. Roe vs Wade should be overturned, but we probably won't see it. How the mentality has come about which thinks nothing of wiping away a life and moving on has been brainwashed into our society. The more that God is removed from our society and replaced with trying to allow every other religion to have their say in this country we will continue to lose moral ground.
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Generally Protestant Christians believe that acts of charity are "WORKS", and are therefore not required for salvation. (And some/(many?) might go further to believe that "WORKS" are not only unnecessary, but actually evil, and should therefore be avoided.)
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God's Fighter
Bent
I'm not sure how accurate that is. Speaking for my own church and the denomination it classifies itself as, none of us believe works are evil or unnecessary. However works are not necessary to obtain salvation, nor could they ever. Only the work of Christ is able to bring salvation. But works are evident of faith and faith without works is dead, Laodicea represents this well. I don't believe in "church ages" either, that the churches in Revelation represent some timeline. I believe they are facets of humanity and it's administration of the church as well as they were literal churches. It just happens that I find Laodicea to parallel American church culture. There are exceptions of course.
But the question remains, what do you do with something that you consider a cult, but it represents Christ's Church better than you and/or your church? I won't change my stance on what I think of the mormon church, as I am one of those who see it as heretical. But I myself have to ask the question, "what do I do with that?". I wish I could bring enough christians back to life to be able to feed the entire community here. Instead most prefer to be isolationist and I find that heretical as well. Interesting problem...
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I'm not sure how you're driving this...but I'll say this.
What Mormons do in their charitable work is to earn salvation and therefore they do it for that purpose.
There are plenty of Christians doing charitable work, but the difference is they do it out of service to God not to earn salvation.
This is not to knock what Mormons do in charity, it's very commendable but it's also "works salvation". Very much like Free Masonry teaches works salvation.
Now...I get your point about "Christians" who say they are but serve themselves. What you do with that is leave it alone.
It's like James says in James 2:18-20
18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
There's the perfect balance!
So you're right...to many of Christians say they have faith but no works. showing they have faith.
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God's Fighter
Bent
I could never leave it alone, I live up to my name. I'm much like James, throwing down the gauntlet, demanding proof of faith and ready to prove my own. When something people find heretical surpasses you in your duties something is wrong. The utter deadness that I witness in my region troubles me and I ponder if it is better or worse in other parts of the united states. I wonder what it will take to wake people up to the world that is around them and in their sphere of influence.
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I wonder if you could please explain this apparent contradiction:
On the one hand you say that you believe that works are not unnecessary (meaning that they are necessary). On the other hand you say that works are not necessary for salvation.
How is it possible to have it both ways?
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Albion
Facilitator
They're necessary. That is to say, Christians are expected to produce and will produce good works. But they are not necessary TO SALVATION. It is not on account of our works that we are saved.
I didn't see any contradition there, but this point so often is misunderstood that I can appreciate the question you asked.
I didn't see any contradition there, but this point so often is misunderstood that I can appreciate the question you asked.
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While I won't just push your concerns aside...isn't it Jesus that said "by their fruits you will know them?".
That doesn't give one the right to "ultimately judge" but it give YOU a basis to judge by the fruit. Therefore if one is professing yet there's no fruit to that profession...move on!
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God's Fighter
Bent
There is still hope that some will turn away from their coldness, I've seen it. But it comes with great difficulty and patience to wake them up.
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I thank you for this explanation. I wonder if we could narrow this down a bit more, though:
Of course we all agree (I think) that it is not on account of our works that we are saved.
We are expected to produce good works. So, what happens if we fail to produce good works? Are we saved? or are we not?
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L
Lovely Lane
Guest
Define 'good works'. I'm told it is charitable acts and those other acts done through piety, Good deeds.
The actions of the pious must demonstrate good works for Christ is in their hearts, those who do not do good works Christ must not be in their heart as they had thought.
Then again, many atheist/pagan's perform good works too. So if one sees a person do good deeds/good works their fruits may not be from the labor in God's love. But yet, they too produce good fruits.
The actions of the pious must demonstrate good works for Christ is in their hearts, those who do not do good works Christ must not be in their heart as they had thought.
Then again, many atheist/pagan's perform good works too. So if one sees a person do good deeds/good works their fruits may not be from the labor in God's love. But yet, they too produce good fruits.
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How do you know that Mormons do charitable work not to serve God, but only to earn salvation?
Perhaps some Mormons do charitable works for that purpose, but I don't think that you know the hearts and motivations of most Mormons (I am not disputing that they teach that we are saved by faith and works).
Dallin Oaks, and LDS apostle, said the following in a conference address, titled "Why Do We Serve?"
People serve one another for different reasons, and some reasons are better than others. Perhaps none of us serves in every capacity all the time for only a single reason. Since we are imperfect beings, most of us probably serve for a combination of reasons, and the combinations may be different from time to time as we grow spiritually. But we should all strive to serve for the reasons that are highest and best.
What are some of the reasons for service? By way of illustration, and without pretending to be exhaustive, I will suggest six reasons. I will discuss these in ascending order from the lesser to the greater reasons for service.
Some may serve for hope of earthly reward. Such a man or woman might serve in Church positions or in private acts of mercy in an effort to achieve prominence or cultivate contacts that would increase income or aid in acquiring wealth. Others might serve in order to obtain worldly honors, prominence, or power.
The scriptures have a word for gospel service “for the sake of riches and honor”; it is “priestcraft.” (Alma 1:16.) Nephi said, “Priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion.” (2 Ne. 26:29.). In these latter days, we are commanded to “seek to bring forth and establish the cause of Zion.” (D&C 6:6.) Unfortunately, not all who accomplish works under that heading are really intending to build up Zion or strengthen the faith of the people of God. Other motives can be at work.
Service that is ostensibly unselfish but is really for the sake of riches or honor surely comes within the Savior’s condemnation of those who “outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within … are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.” (Matt. 23:28.) Such service earns no gospel reward.
“I would that ye should do alms unto the poor,” the Savior declared, “but take heed that ye do not your alms before men to be seen of them; otherwise ye have no reward of your Father who is in heaven.” (3 Ne. 13:1; see also Matt. 6:1–2.) The Savior continued:
“Therefore, when ye shall do your alms do not sound a trumpet before you, as will hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, they have their reward.” (3 Ne. 13:2; see also Matt. 6:2.)
In contrast, those who serve quietly, even “in secret,” qualify for the Savior’s promise that “thy Father, who seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.” (3 Ne. 13:18; see also Matt. 6:4.)
Another reason for service—probably more worthy than the first, but still in the category of service in search of earthly reward—is that motivated by a personal desire to obtain good companionship. We surely have good associations in our Church service, but is that why we serve?
I once knew a person who was active in Church service until a socially prominent friend and fellow worker moved away. When the friend moved from the ward, this person ceased to serve. In this case, a Church worker was willing to serve only when the fellow workers were acceptable.
Persons who serve only to obtain good companionship are more selective in choosing their friends than the Master was in choosing his servants or associates. Jesus called most of his servants from those in humble circumstances. And he associated with sinners. He answered critics of such association by saying, “They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” (Luke 5:31–32.)
The first section of the Doctrine and Covenants, which speaks of people in the last days, gives a description that seems to include those who serve for hope of earthly reward of one sort or another: “They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol.” (D&C 1:16.)
These first two reasons for service are selfish and self-centered and unworthy of Saints. As the Apostle Paul said, we that are strong enough to bear the infirmities of the weak should not do so “to please ourselves.” (Rom. 15:1.) Reasons aimed at earthly rewards are distinctly lesser in character and reward than the other reasons I will discuss.
Some may serve out of fear of punishment. The scriptures abound with descriptions of the miserable state of those who fail to follow the commandments of God. Thus, King Benjamin taught his people that the soul of the unrepentant transgressor would be filled with “a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.” (Mosiah 2:38.) Such descriptions surely offer sufficient incentive for keeping the commandment of service. But service out of fear of punishment is a lesser motive at best.
Other persons may serve out of a sense of duty or out of loyalty to friends or family or traditions. These are those I would call the good soldiers, who instinctively do what they are asked without question and sometimes without giving much thought to the reasons for their service. Such persons fill the ranks of voluntary organizations everywhere, and they do much good. We have all benefited by the good works of such persons. Those who serve out of a sense of duty or loyalty to various wholesome causes are the good and honorable men and women of the earth.
Service of the character I have just described is worthy of praise and will surely qualify for blessings, especially if it is done willingly and joyfully. As the Apostle Paul wrote in his second letter to the Corinthians:
“But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
“Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.” (2 Cor. 9:6–7.)
“It is obeying God willingly that is accepted,” an anonymous writer has said. “The Lord hates that which is forced—it is rather a tax than an offering.”
Although those who serve out of fear of punishment or out of a sense of duty undoubtedly qualify for the blessings of heaven, there are still higher reasons for service.
One such higher reason for service is the hope of an eternal reward. This hope—the expectation of enjoying the fruits of our labors—is one of the most powerful sources of motivation. As a reason for service, it necessarily involves faith in God and in the fulfillment of his prophecies. The scriptures are rich in promises of eternal rewards. For example, in a revelation given through the Prophet Joseph Smith in June 1829, the Lord said: “If you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God.” (D&C 14:7.)
The last motive I will discuss is, in my opinion, the highest reason of all. In its relationship to service, it is what the scriptures call “a more excellent way.” (1 Cor. 12:31.)
“Charity is the pure love of Christ.” (Moro. 7:47.) The Book of Mormon teaches us that this virtue is “the greatest of all.” (Moro. 7:46.) The Apostle Paul affirmed and illustrated that truth in his great teaching about the reasons for service:
“Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. …
“And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, … and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.” (1 Cor. 13:1–3.)
We know from these inspired words that even the most extreme acts of service—such as giving all of our goods to feed the poor—profit us nothing unless our service is motivated by the pure love of Christ.
If our service is to be most efficacious, it must be accomplished for the love of God and the love of his children. The Savior applied that principle in the Sermon on the Mount, in which he commanded us to love our enemies, bless them that curse us, do good to them that hate us, and pray for them that despitefully use us and persecute us. (See Matt. 5:44.) He explained the purpose of that commandment as follows:
“For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
“And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?” (Matt. 5:46–47.)
This principle—that our service should be for the love of God and the love of fellowmen rather than for personal advantage or any other lesser motive—is admittedly a high standard. The Savior must have seen it so, since he joined his commandment for selfless and complete love directly with the ideal of perfection. The very next verse of the Sermon on the Mount contains this great commandment: “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matt. 5:48.)
What are some of the reasons for service? By way of illustration, and without pretending to be exhaustive, I will suggest six reasons. I will discuss these in ascending order from the lesser to the greater reasons for service.
Some may serve for hope of earthly reward. Such a man or woman might serve in Church positions or in private acts of mercy in an effort to achieve prominence or cultivate contacts that would increase income or aid in acquiring wealth. Others might serve in order to obtain worldly honors, prominence, or power.
The scriptures have a word for gospel service “for the sake of riches and honor”; it is “priestcraft.” (Alma 1:16.) Nephi said, “Priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion.” (2 Ne. 26:29.). In these latter days, we are commanded to “seek to bring forth and establish the cause of Zion.” (D&C 6:6.) Unfortunately, not all who accomplish works under that heading are really intending to build up Zion or strengthen the faith of the people of God. Other motives can be at work.
Service that is ostensibly unselfish but is really for the sake of riches or honor surely comes within the Savior’s condemnation of those who “outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within … are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.” (Matt. 23:28.) Such service earns no gospel reward.
“I would that ye should do alms unto the poor,” the Savior declared, “but take heed that ye do not your alms before men to be seen of them; otherwise ye have no reward of your Father who is in heaven.” (3 Ne. 13:1; see also Matt. 6:1–2.) The Savior continued:
“Therefore, when ye shall do your alms do not sound a trumpet before you, as will hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, they have their reward.” (3 Ne. 13:2; see also Matt. 6:2.)
In contrast, those who serve quietly, even “in secret,” qualify for the Savior’s promise that “thy Father, who seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.” (3 Ne. 13:18; see also Matt. 6:4.)
Another reason for service—probably more worthy than the first, but still in the category of service in search of earthly reward—is that motivated by a personal desire to obtain good companionship. We surely have good associations in our Church service, but is that why we serve?
I once knew a person who was active in Church service until a socially prominent friend and fellow worker moved away. When the friend moved from the ward, this person ceased to serve. In this case, a Church worker was willing to serve only when the fellow workers were acceptable.
Persons who serve only to obtain good companionship are more selective in choosing their friends than the Master was in choosing his servants or associates. Jesus called most of his servants from those in humble circumstances. And he associated with sinners. He answered critics of such association by saying, “They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” (Luke 5:31–32.)
The first section of the Doctrine and Covenants, which speaks of people in the last days, gives a description that seems to include those who serve for hope of earthly reward of one sort or another: “They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol.” (D&C 1:16.)
These first two reasons for service are selfish and self-centered and unworthy of Saints. As the Apostle Paul said, we that are strong enough to bear the infirmities of the weak should not do so “to please ourselves.” (Rom. 15:1.) Reasons aimed at earthly rewards are distinctly lesser in character and reward than the other reasons I will discuss.
Some may serve out of fear of punishment. The scriptures abound with descriptions of the miserable state of those who fail to follow the commandments of God. Thus, King Benjamin taught his people that the soul of the unrepentant transgressor would be filled with “a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.” (Mosiah 2:38.) Such descriptions surely offer sufficient incentive for keeping the commandment of service. But service out of fear of punishment is a lesser motive at best.
Other persons may serve out of a sense of duty or out of loyalty to friends or family or traditions. These are those I would call the good soldiers, who instinctively do what they are asked without question and sometimes without giving much thought to the reasons for their service. Such persons fill the ranks of voluntary organizations everywhere, and they do much good. We have all benefited by the good works of such persons. Those who serve out of a sense of duty or loyalty to various wholesome causes are the good and honorable men and women of the earth.
Service of the character I have just described is worthy of praise and will surely qualify for blessings, especially if it is done willingly and joyfully. As the Apostle Paul wrote in his second letter to the Corinthians:
“But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
“Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.” (2 Cor. 9:6–7.)
“It is obeying God willingly that is accepted,” an anonymous writer has said. “The Lord hates that which is forced—it is rather a tax than an offering.”
Although those who serve out of fear of punishment or out of a sense of duty undoubtedly qualify for the blessings of heaven, there are still higher reasons for service.
One such higher reason for service is the hope of an eternal reward. This hope—the expectation of enjoying the fruits of our labors—is one of the most powerful sources of motivation. As a reason for service, it necessarily involves faith in God and in the fulfillment of his prophecies. The scriptures are rich in promises of eternal rewards. For example, in a revelation given through the Prophet Joseph Smith in June 1829, the Lord said: “If you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God.” (D&C 14:7.)
The last motive I will discuss is, in my opinion, the highest reason of all. In its relationship to service, it is what the scriptures call “a more excellent way.” (1 Cor. 12:31.)
“Charity is the pure love of Christ.” (Moro. 7:47.) The Book of Mormon teaches us that this virtue is “the greatest of all.” (Moro. 7:46.) The Apostle Paul affirmed and illustrated that truth in his great teaching about the reasons for service:
“Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. …
“And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, … and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.” (1 Cor. 13:1–3.)
We know from these inspired words that even the most extreme acts of service—such as giving all of our goods to feed the poor—profit us nothing unless our service is motivated by the pure love of Christ.
If our service is to be most efficacious, it must be accomplished for the love of God and the love of his children. The Savior applied that principle in the Sermon on the Mount, in which he commanded us to love our enemies, bless them that curse us, do good to them that hate us, and pray for them that despitefully use us and persecute us. (See Matt. 5:44.) He explained the purpose of that commandment as follows:
“For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
“And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?” (Matt. 5:46–47.)
This principle—that our service should be for the love of God and the love of fellowmen rather than for personal advantage or any other lesser motive—is admittedly a high standard. The Savior must have seen it so, since he joined his commandment for selfless and complete love directly with the ideal of perfection. The very next verse of the Sermon on the Mount contains this great commandment: “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matt. 5:48.)
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Well sir, I reject that straight out.
I know Mormons work to inherit salvation from your own churches writings. I know the LDS doctrines as far as the levels of heaven one may enter and each is based on works.
Your own writings instruct such. It's been a while since I've studied on it but let me share this scripture form your own writings:
"For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do," (2 Nephi 25:23)
You also know of the hidden things that others cannot know except they be in the Priesthood.
You wrote quite a bit quoting scriptures from the bible when you and I know that is not the authority for Mormons.
I won't pretend I know everything of the LDS Church...however I will call you on the fact that you and I both know your Church authority is the "Book of Mormon" and not the bible.
As a Christian I reject that totally, the bible alone is the Christians authority. Salvation for the Christian not based on works in any form whatsover. Works are "the result" of salvation for the Christian and salvation is a free gift!
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L
Lovely Lane
Guest
I believe you said you can tell from the fruit of ones works, didn't you?
So, if the Mormons are doing good works then there fruits must be good and they are Christian. Or, using the fruits to discern one being Christian or not is not a good policy to follow, for atheist and pagans do good deeds/good works and they are not Christian.
Works alone have nothing to do with salvation. Nor is one saved until final judgement, there are no guarantees until then and any one can do good deeds, good works, even the evil one.
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I did say that, because that is what Jesus said, but within the context of that saying there's more.This is spoken by Christ in Matthew 7.
The idea one doesn't know their saved until final judgement is foreign to the bible. The bible speaks clearly that we can KNOW we are saved.
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I agree that the LDS teach that there are different levels of heaven, and that they are based on faith and works. However, that does not mean that an individual Mormon's motivation to do good works is based on what reward they hope to receive. Just because their theology teaches a faith and works based salvation does not mean that one cannot desire to do good works to serve God.
Most of my post that you quoted does not consist of my words, but those of an LDS leader, who is an apostle in their church. I just want to be clear on what is my own writing, and when I have quoted someone elses words. I quoted them in order to show what is taught in the LDS Church concerning why they do good works.
After reading my post again, I noticed that I attributed the source of the quote after the quote, instead of before as I thought that I had (as evidenced by my own words "the following quote"). I will edit my post to correct this.
I am aware of this LDS scripture. It doesn't indicate that LDS only do good works for their own merit, and not because they seek to serve God.
That is interesting since I have never been LDS, and since I am not a male it is not possible that I was ever in the LDS priesthood.
Thye scriptures that were in my post were there because it was part of the quotation.
You are incorrect with your facts. I have never been a Mormon. My church does not use the Book of Mormon. However, that does not mean that I should not stand up for those who are LDS if they are being mischaracterized.
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