Modernism vs Traditionalism in Orthodoxy

[Nick Moser]

On the 4th of October, 2023, a high-ranking member of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, affiliated with the Patriarchate of Constantinople, participated in the "Interfaith Harmony Day" at a grand Hindu temple in Robbinsville, New Jersey. This meeting, part of the festivities leading to the consecration of the temple on October 8, brought together a plethora of erroneous theologies, including heretical forms of Christianity and the prelest religions that are Mormonism, Judaism, Hinduism, Islam, and Buddhism. The venue, managed by the BAPS Swaminarayan Sanstha organization, emphasizes the empty and soulless doctrine of universalism, echoing the dystopian and schizophrenic dialectic of liberalism (capitalist democracies), communism/socialism, and Origen's heretical teachings, which believed that the revealed truth calls all mankind to conversion and break down barriers real or imaginary.

Archbishop Elpidophoros, the head of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America (GOARCH) who also participated in a march held by the Marxistic and black supremacist hate group known as Black Lives Matter, was represented by His Grace Bishop Athenagoras Nazianzos, Chief Secretary of the Holy Eparchial Synod of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, who attended the event in person. Misquoting the holy Apostle Paul, Archbishop Elpidophoros conveyed, “In the boundless tapestry of creation, we are called to recognize and celebrate the diverse ways in which humanity seeks to connect with the divine. As Orthodox Christians, we are continually reminded of the Apostle Paul’s words, for from Him and through Him and for Him are all things.” This sentiment echoes the stance of Archbishop Evgenios of Crete, another hierarch of the Constantinople Patriarchate, who perpetuated the lie that sexual perversion of gender dysphoria is not a sin.


It seems that the Orthodox Church is going the same way as the Catholics who have clown masses and bless homosexual relationships. Perhaps the Old Believers and Old Calendarist are correct(see First-Second Council of Cannons)

*Affirm the soul has a journey after its departure from the body, and is related to the particular judgment. In its most general form, it refers to the idea that after death, the demons attempt to find a basis for taking the soul to Hades, while the angels defend the soul, taking the reason in the righteousness of the reposed person. Whether the soul is finally seized by the demons, or taken to heaven depends on the state of the soul at death and the intercession (prayers) of the living.
*Rejection off the adoption of the Gregorian calendar by some Orthodox Churches as it is a deviation from tradition, associating it with Freemasonry, heresy, and the "pan-heresy" of Ecumenism.
*The liturgical gestures of the Sign of the Cross, bows, and prostrations are meticulously performed in unison by the congregation according to established tradition, with the Sign of the Cross symbolizing Christology through a two-fingered gesture accompanied by the recitation of the Jesus Prayer.
*The Communion bread, known as prosphora, is meticulously crafted from seven pieces of leavened bread and paired with pure grape wine, both consecrated during the Holy Eucharist service.
*Affirm the seamless unity of Christ's divine and human natures, intricately intertwined without division or confusion.
*Both monasteries and parishes adhere rigorously to the St. Savas Typicon, ensuring the faithful observance of a full cycle of services, with liturgical homilies precisely delivered during Matins.
*In the appointed psalmody, the complete text of psalms is read, with the chanters responding with selected psalm verses.
*Utilize specific kinds of readers , especially the Canonarch and the Psalmist and always have readers receive a blessing before reading, and ask forgiveness of the priest and congregation when finishing their duties.
*Traditional liturgical singing consists of unison (monophonic) chant without
compositions – only ancient traditional chant melodies.
*Emphasis on silent prayer to touch the divine light within and illuminating the depths of God's unknowable presence.
*Separation from the world with plain dress, no electricity, and limited technology, promoting simplicity and community
*Affirm in the Creed that the Holy Ghost is the True Lord, the Giver of Life
*Immersed in communal prayer's "Mystery of Unity," find wholeness in Christ's Body, upholding decorum, reminding that order cradles grace, as children learn at their side

 

[ArmyMatt]

they are only correct if you ignore the 2000-ish years of Christianity that come before us. it’s amazing that people see the errors that folks do in the Church and think this is anything new.

 

[rusmeister]

I wish…

 

[The Liturgist]

Also @Nick Moser I would note your complaints are all specific to the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and most are specific to GoArch, which is the only Orthodox church in the Americas with a sharply declining membership. Fortunately GoArch has the monasteries of Elder Ephraim, memory eternal, promoting traditional Orthodoxy. The Ecumenical Patriarchate could become increasingly canonically isolated furthermore due to certain controversies elsewhere, and it would be likely be a disaster if Archbishop Elpidophoros were to succeed Patriarch Bartholomew. But again, there is Mount Athos and we have to pray the Athonite Monks are able to maintain Orthodoxy despite liberal bishops.

But I am confident any such crisis would be contained to the EP and a few churches in close proximity to it. The EP has managed to alienate the Antiochians, Serbians, Russians, half of the Ukrainians, the Belarussians, the Bulgarians, the Czechs and Slovaks, the Georgians, and more recently the Romanians and Moldovans due to the mistreatment of an ethnically Romanian bishop in the UOC, and has even irritated the Patriarchate of Jerusalem, and also they continue to deny the autocephaly of the OCA.

Recently the Archbishop lost some face when all the other members of the Canonical Orthodox Bishops of North America threatened to quit over his proposed ordination of an ex-ROCOR priest who was defrocked for unethical behavior. And when he was Metropolitan of Burma, he failed to keep the last Orthodox parish in the diocese open, and also wrote the extremely controversial paper arguing that the Ecumenical Patriarch is primus sine paribus rather than primus inter pares, and has the sole power to grant, and also to revoke, autocephaly, which is a position contrary to canons 6 and 7 of Nicaea. I am surprised he was tapped to become Archbishop of GoArch after that. And he managed to greatly upset a Church of Greece bishop with the whole gay baptism incident.

Indeed in reality the EP might not even have the powers of Canon 28 of Chalcedon, depending on how literally one interprets “Rome.”

However, these problems all seem specific to the EP, and furthermore are specific to parts of it. Not Mount Athos, and not the monasteries of Elder Ephraim.

 

[abacabb3]

There's liberalism everywhere. Even the old calendarists have their own sort of it. We focus on the faith and if it is our own bishop, we speak to him. as for the others, thats not our affair i feel. Vote with your money.

 

[rusmeister]

And in running from liberalism, many in the Russian Church have run to the other extreme, that of a willingness to embrace totalitarianism, and even Stalinism, in order to suppress the excessively liberal elements. I experienced that quite personally in the run-up to my flight from Russia. And now we have new Russian confessor-priests, who refuse to sell out their conscience in order to support the war, and are punished - BY the Russian Church - for doing so.

 

[abacabb3]

And in running from liberalism, many in the Russian Church have run to the other extreme, that of a willingness to embrace totalitarianism, and even Stalinism, in order to suppress the excessively liberal elements. I experienced that quite personally in the run-up to my flight from Russia. And now we have new Russian confessor-priests, who refuse to sell out their conscience in order to support the war, and are punished - BY the Russian Church - for doing so.

Yes, now we see why ROCOR had a schism, as some Russian expats and their children had long memories about how things are done in Russia. And hate to burst anyone's bubble, it probably wasn't very different before the revolution.

This is why I think being obsessed with who is "getting it all right" is a fool's errand. The saints, as a collective, get it all right--not individually, but the consensus of their views. Individual saints can err. And if the individual saints err, what does that mean for your bishop now? I have failed with all my might to get a spiritual father that even understands basic things in my life. I'm just convinced the way forward is, "Love the one you're with." No one is getting it all right.

Focus on getting things right oneself!

 

[JSRG]

they are only correct if you ignore the 2000-ish years of Christianity that come before us. it’s amazing that people see the errors that folks do in the Church and think this is anything new.

Who is the "they" you refer to? The bishops who are being accused of heresy or the people accusing the bishops of heresy? I unfortunately can't tell from your post, could you clarify?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Who is the "they" you refer to? The bishops who are being accused of heresy or the people accusing the bishops of heresy? I unfortunately can't tell from your post, could you clarify?

the Old Calandarists and schismatic Old Believers.

 

[Dewi Sant]

it does concern me how the Greek church (and the Œcumenical Patriarchate) is gaining this reputation of visible deviation from the Orthodox ideal, however I trust (oh how I trust!) that these cases quoted above are deep in nuance and circumstance.
Regardless, please be assured that there are a great many faithful under the omophor of Constantinople, the monastics as mentioned earlier, but also the faithful who live in the world.
As rusmeister mentioned, pushing too hard in the counter direction is an undertaking with its own troubles.
This is not Elpidophoros' or Bartholomew's church, but Christ's. Let the works of their careers in office be judged by historians of the future, and ultimately on the final day.
The shifting demographics of the church in the old world, particularly Greece, is in line with the larger social change on that continent. A failure of the church to engage with its faithful? Perhaps. I know at least that there are bad habits among the Greeks, such as arriving for communion after the Gospel; but also the church restricts its liturgy to archaic language (a mixture of Koine and Attic), which while being academically sound and attractive, fails to meet the criteria of being vernacular. I have known Greeks who weep when they attend an Anglophone Greek church and for the first time, can understand the liturgy (albeit not in their mother tongue).

I ramble, and so I stop here

 

[rusmeister]

It’s a side quest, but there is a counterpoint to the issue of ancient languages versus modern vernacular. While it is obvious to all that people need to basically understand what is being said in worship, it is also important that the language be older, higher, and more formal, then the slang and language of the street. The aim should be to use older language that is still recognizable. People need to understand that they are not in fact in the street, and the older language communicates the sense of respect, and the import of what we are doing and what is happening in worship. in English, we are a little more fortunate in that the language of Shakespeare is still close enough to accomplish this. It is a somewhat bigger problem in Russian with old church Slavonic, being a few centuries older than that of our own King James version of the Bible, and I imagine that the problem of ancient Greek is even bigger, though I don’t know enough to know just how big the problem is.

 

[The Liturgist]

It’s a side quest, but there is a counterpoint to the issue of ancient languages versus modern vernacular. While it is obvious to all that people need to basically understand what is being said in worship, it is also important that the language be older, higher, and more formal, then the slang and language of the street. The aim should be to use older language that is still recognizable. People need to understand that they are not in fact in the street, and the older language communicates the sense of respect, and the import of what we are doing and what is happening in worship. in English, we are a little more fortunate in that the language of Shakespeare is still close enough to accomplish this. It is a somewhat bigger problem in Russian with old church Slavonic, being a few centuries older than that of our own King James version of the Bible, and I imagine that the problem of ancient Greek is even bigger, though I don’t know enough to know just how big the problem is.

Two of the Oriental Orthodox churches have tackled this issue with particular success, in particular the Coptic Orthodox Church is doing a remarkable job teaching Coptic to its youth, and the Syriac Orthodox church likewise is moving in that direction. One hears less and less Arabic in the Coptic and Syriac liturgies in the diaspora (but an increase in both the ancient liturgical language and the local vernacular).