Matthew 7:15-20 - The tree and it's fruits.

[TheListener]

Matthew 7:15-20 (KJV)
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

What are some of the fruits we can look at?

Jesus:
sexual immorailty? - Never, in fact he said don't even look at another women with lust.
Lies & deceit? - Never, God's Word does not lie. None that anyone has been able to prove anyway and trust me many have tried.
murdering innocent unarmed people? - Never, there is no record of Jesus even carrying a sword as opposed to muhammed who's swords are in museums today.
Greed & lust for power & conquest by blood? - Never, in fact he gave His life for us out of love.
Demonic links? - Never, demons feared Him & fled at His name.

muhammed:
sexual immorailty? - check. He had anywhere between 11 and 27 wives, numorous concubines, married a 6 year old once, took his own adopted sons only wife because he lusted after her & made up a koran verse to justify this act and make his son think he was serving allah by giving up his only wife... etc etc etc list goes on...
Lies & deceit? - check. The koran has been changed by muhammed himself depending on whatever he needed at the time. The above example is good. The rest of the koran denied people to get to know the real Holy God who hates sexual immorality which muhammed encourages.
murdering innocent unarmed people? - check. A short look at islamic history will show you this. "Convert or be humilliated & taxed beyond your income or die" is the islamic gospel of peace.
Greed & lust for power & conquest by blood? - check. Fits human carnal instincts well. See above example.
Demonic links? - check. He wrote a book which claimed demons can be friendly did he not? And what is allah if he is not God? An idol, a demon? What is it the muslims face towards 5 times a day & kneel before? Is it God? God doesn't need us to face Him, he is omnipresent & we worship in spirit. What is behind the black drapes at kabe the muslims face?

Why don't we discuss these? Anybody want to refute these claims?
Does it look normal to you?
Which of the 2 mentioned men above seem more like a Holy man?

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Just like my tale of the king thread which got hijacked and closed for no reason.

 

[I_are_sceptical]

Why don't we discuss these? Anybody want to refute these claims?
Does it look normal to you?
Which of the 2 mentioned men above seem more like a Holy man?

First of all, the description of Muhammad should be made by a devout Muslim. That will place the discussion of Him on an equal level with the description of Jesus as given by a Bible-believing Christian such as yourself.

If Jesus' claims, and the accuracy of the Gospels, should be accepted in this discussion as truth, then Islam should be approached the same way. How would we view Muhammad's character if we accept at least the possibility that He is God's chosen Apostle and the Qur'an is the Holy Word of God, instead of first making statements about His character and then trying to determine from those statements if He is or is not what Muslims claim Him to be?

He had anywhere between 11 and 27 wives, numorous concubines, married a 6 year old once, took his own adopted sons only wife because he lusted after her & made up a koran verse to justify this act and make his son think he was serving allah by giving up his only wife... etc etc etc list goes on...

What is your source of information about this? Did you get all this from Christians or Muslims? Would you be willing to allow non-Christians, openly hostile to Jesus' claims, to define Jesus? Do you think we should accept or reject Jesus based on that definition or should we use the New Testament instead? Would you, in the interests of fairness, be willing to define Muhammad according to the doctrines of Islam, not the interpretations of Islam made by non-Muslims?

Apparently there are many recorded statements by people who knew Muhammad personally (the collections of these statements are called the Hadith) yet you are saying that no-one knew for certain how many wives He had? Either the number of His wives is known or it is not. If the history of Islam cannot answer such questions then that history cannot reliably assert He had any concubines at all, or state the age of any of His wives, etc.

Murdering innocent unarmed people

Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, surely not EVERYONE was carrying on a lifestyle of uninterrupted sin. And then there was the time when Elijah was being harassed on the street by a group of children and God sent bears to rip the children apart. What weapons did those children have to put them on an equal level of combat ability with the bears?

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

surely not EVERYONE was carrying on a lifestyle of uninterrupted sin

Says who? Your assumption?

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

And then there was the time when Elijah was being harassed on the street by a group of children and God sent bears to rip the children apart. What weapons did those children have to put them on an equal level of combat ability with the bears?

What children? Do you even know the exegesis of those verses in 2 Kings?

The words nearim ketannim not only signify little children but young men; for katon signifies not only little, but young, in opposition to old; and naar signifies not only a child, but a young man grown to years of maturity. Thus Isaac is called naar when twenty-eight years old, Joseph when thirty-nine, and Rehoboam when forty. These idolatrous young men, having heard of the ascension of Elijah, without believing it, blasphemously bade Elisha to follow him. The venerable prophet, from a Divine impulse, pronounced a curse “in the name of the Lord,” which was immediately followed by the most terrible judgment; thus evincing the Source from which it flowed.

They yelled out "Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head" - עלה קרח עלה קרח aleh kereach, aleh kereach. Does not this imply the grossest insult? Ascend, thou empty skull, to heaven, as it is pretended thy master did! This was blasphemy against God; and their punishment (for they were Beth-elite idolaters) was only proportioned to their guilt. Elisha cursed them, i.e., pronounced a curse upon them, in the name of the Lord, בשם יהוה beshem Yehovah, by the name or authority of Jehovah. The spirit of their offense lies in their ridiculing a miracle of the Lord: the offense was against Him, and He punished it. It was no petulant humor of the prophet that caused him to pronounce this curse; it was God alone: had it proceeded from a wrong disposition of the prophet, no miracle would have been wrought in order to gratify it.

“But was it not a cruel thing to destroy forty-two little children, who, in mere childishness, had simply called the prophet bare skull, or bald head?” as people keep repeating...

Elisha did not destroy them; he had no power by which he could bring two she-bears out of the wood to destroy them. It was evidently either accidental, or a Divine judgment; and if a judgment, God must be the sole author of it. Elisha’s curse must be only declaratory of what God was about to do. If it was a judgment of God, it could neither be cruel nor unjust; and I contend, that the prophet had no power by which he could bring these she-bears to fall upon them. But were they little children? for here the strength of the objection lies. Now I suppose the objection means children from four to seven or eight years old; for so we use the word: but the original, נערים קטנים nearim ketannim, may mean young men, for קטן katon signifies to be young, in opposition to old, and is so translated in various places in our Bible; and נער naar signifies, not only a child, but a young man, a servant, or even a soldier, or one fit to go out to battle; and is so translated in a multitude of places in our common English version. I shall mention but a few, because they are sufficiently decisive: Isaac was called נער naar when twenty-eight years old, and Joseph was so called when he was thirty-nine, Add to these 1Kings 20:14 : “And Ahab said, By whom [shall the Assyrians be delivered into my hand?] And he said, Thus saith the Lord, by the Young Men, בנערי benaarey, of the princes of the provinces.” That these were soldiers, probably militia, or a selection from the militia, which served as a bodyguard to Ahab, the event sufficiently declares; and the persons that mocked Elisha were perfectly accountable for their conduct.

 

[Montalban]

First of all, the description of Muhammad should be made by a devout Muslim. That will place the discussion of Him on an equal level with the description of Jesus as given by a Bible-believing Christian such as yourself.

I don't agree with your 'rule', but I'm quite happy to oblige, for now...
What's Aisha got to say about her 'husband'?
From Bukhari vol. 7, #65:
"Narrated Aisha that the prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: "I have been informed that Aisha remained with the prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).""
Bukhari vol. 7, #88:
"Narrated Urwa: "The prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).""
Bukhari vol. 5, #234 says:
"Narrated Aisha: The prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six. We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Harith Kharzraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's messenger came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age."
FROM THE HADITH OF SAHIH MUSLIM VOLUME 2, #3309
Aisha reported: Allah's Messenger married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine".
FROM THE HADITH OF THE SUNAN OF ABU DAWUD
(Abu Dawud's Hadith is the third most respected Hadith in Islam.)
From Abu Dawud, Vol. 2, #2116:
"Aisha said, "The Apostle of Allah married me when I was seven years old." (The narrator Sulaiman said: "Or six years."). "He had intercourse with me when I was 9 years old."

If Jesus' claims, and the accuracy of the Gospels, should be accepted in this discussion as truth, then Islam should be approached the same way. How would we view Muhammad's character if we accept at least the possibility that He is God's chosen Apostle and the Qur'an is the Holy Word of God, instead of first making statements about His character and then trying to determine from those statements if He is or is not what Muslims claim Him to be?

That's assuming that's what people generally do (you're looking at this thread out without reference to other threads on this forum). So, I have re-stated some of the evidence from Islamic sources. You're quite welcome to weigh this up against the words/doings of Jesus.
So, here we have to go all over again
Terrorist/muderer: THEN
"And He has caused to descend from their strongholds the Jews that assisted them. And he struck terror into their hearts. Some you slaughtered and some you took prisoner"

Sura 33.25

Terrorist/muder: Now

Professor Yusuf al-Qaradawi has different ideas.

See "Islamic cleric defends suicide bombing stance"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1256261,00.html

U.S. Indicts Radical Muslim Cleric

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,121044,00.html

A Saudi Arabian cleric who prayed to God to "terminate" the Jews

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=36482




discrimination

Against Women: THEN


"The prophet said: 'When a man calls his wife to bed and she does not come, the husband spends the night being angry with her, and the angels curse her until morning. The one who is in heaven is displeased with her until the husband is pleased with her.'"(Sahih hadith, chapter 558)

and she can be 'used' by the man

"The prophet of Allah said: When a man calls his wife to satisfy his desire, let her come to him though she is occupied at the oven."

Mishkat al-Masabih, English translation, Book I, Section 'Duties of husband and wife', Hadith No. 61


Against Women: Now


"Testimony or bearing witness. The Qur’aan states that the testimony of one man is equivalent to the testimony of two women."

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=1105&dgn=4



Also, a man can now divorce his wife by e-mail... (a woman can not)

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=36761&dgn=4


"...the testimony of a non-Muslim was not allowed in a Muslim shari'ah court, so if a Jew or Christian had a case against a Muslim, he would have to get Muslim witnesses..."

http://www.secularislam.net/archives/000017.html



Discrimination against Jews: THEN


2:96 says that they are the greediest people...

And verily, you will find them (the Jews) the greediest of mankind for life and (even greedier) than those who - ascribe partners to Allah (and do not believe in Resurrection - Magians, pagans, and idolaters, etc.). Everyone of them wishes that he could be given a life of a thousand years. But the grant of such life will not save him even a little from (due) punishment. And Allah is All-Seer of what they do.



2:61 says that al-lah stamped wrtechedness upon them.

4:61 Says that they (and Christians) believe in idols

5:52 they are cursed.




General discrimination: THEN


5:51

O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliya' (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but Auliya' to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliya', then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allah guides not those people who are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrongdoers and unjust).



General discrimination: NOW

It is not permissible for a Muslim man or woman to take a male or female friend who is not a Muslim, because Allaah has forbidden us to love the kuffaar or take them as close friends and companions

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=69876&dgn=4

 

[Galilee]

Lies & deceit? - Never, God's Word does not lie. None that anyone has been able to prove anyway and trust me many have tried.

allow me to add to this point.
a muslim is a llowed to lie in 3 cases: 1) a husband lying to his wife. 2)lying in order to end a conflict .
3) lying to the enemy. and this is what is called "At-Taqeyyah". that a muslim can lie to anyone when he feels that islam is under attack in any way. he could pretedn that he's a friend of a non-muslim, while deep inside his heart his cursing him.

 

[coyoteBR]

Yes, Listener, "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit."

We are the fruits.
Muslims, Christians, Hindus, ... we all made some pretty discusting things in name of religion. And we keep doing'em.

So, let's first try and clean our tree, before badmouthing our neighbours yard, shall we?

 

[Galilee]

Greed & lust for power & conquest by blood? - Never, in fact he gave His life for us out of love.

and i'll just add this hadith fomr sahih muslim:
Book 004, Number 1062:

Abu Huraira reported that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon hlmg) said: I have been given superiority over the other prophets in six respects: I have been given words which are concise but comprehensive in meaning; I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies): spoils have been made lawful to me: the earth has been made for me clean and a place of worship; I have been sent to all mankind and the line of prophets is closed with me.

​

 

[e=mv^2]

3) lying to the enemy

If this is true then muslims have 0 credibility. None.
Can someone prove this one way or another?

 

[ChristianDude777]

Matthew 7:15-20 (KJV)
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

What are some of the fruits we can look at?

Wow. What a post. Well done..!

Tim L.

 

[Galilee]

If this is true then muslims have 0 credibility. None.
Can someone prove this one way or another?

sure.
from the quranic verse:
3:28 Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them, taking (as it were) security. Allah biddeth you beware (only) of Himself. Unto Allah is the journeying.

in the commentary of Ibn Kathir to this verse we find (explaining the red part):




[إِلاَ أَن تَتَّقُواْ مِنْهُمْ تُقَـةً]



(unless you indeed fear a danger from them) meaning, except those believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers. In this case, such believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly. For instance, Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Ad-Darda' said, "We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them.'' Al-Bukhari said that Al-Hasan said, "The Tuqyah is allowed until the Day of Resurrection.''

http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=3&tid=8052

this can also be found in the commentary of Al-Jalaleen (for those who read Arabic:
مَصْدَر تَقَيْته أَيْ تَخَافُوا مَخَافَة فَلَكُمْ مُوَالَاتهمْ بِاللِّسَانِ دُون الْقَلْب وَهَذَا قَبْل عِزَّة الْإِسْلَام وَيَجْرِي فِيمَنْ هُوَ فِي بَلَد لَيْسَ قَوِيًّا فِيهَا

http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?l=arb&taf=GALALEEN&nType=1&nSora=3&nAya=28

and the commentary of At-Tabari:
سَمِعْت أَبَا مُعَاذ قَالَ : أَخْبَرَنَا عُبَيْد , قَالَ : سَمِعْت الضَّحَّاك يَقُول فِي قَوْله : { إِلَّا أَنْ تَتَّقُوا مِنْهُمْ تُقَاة } قَالَ : التَّقِيَّة بِاللِّسَانِ مَنْ حُمِلَ عَلَى أَمْر يَتَكَلَّم بِهِ وَهُوَ لِلَّهِ مَعْصِيَة , فَتَكَلَّمَ مَخَافَة عَلَى نَفْسه , وَقَلْبه مُطَمْئِن بِالْإِيمَانِ , فَلَا إِثْم عَلَيْهِ , إِنَّمَا التَّقِيَّة بِاللِّسَانِ
http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?l=arb&taf=TABARY&nType=1&nSora=3&nAya=28

and in the commentary of Al-Qurtubi:
قَالَ مُعَاذ بْن جَبَل وَمُجَاهِد : كَانَتْ التَّقِيَّة فِي جِدَّة الْإِسْلَام قَبْل قُوَّة الْمُسْلِمِينَ ; فَأَمَّا الْيَوْم فَقَدْ أَعَزَّ اللَّه الْإِسْلَام أَنْ يَتَّقُوا مِنْ عَدُوّهُمْ . قَالَ اِبْن عَبَّاس : هُوَ أَنْ يَتَكَلَّم بِلِسَانِهِ وَقَلْبه مُطْمَئِنّ بِالْإِيمَانِ , وَلَا يُقْتَل وَلَا يَأْتِي مَأْثَمًا . وَقَالَ الْحَسَن : التَّقِيَّة جَائِزَة لِلْإِنْسَانِ إِلَى يَوْم الْقِيَامَة , وَلَا تَقِيَّة فِي الْقَتْل . وَقَرَأَ جَابِر بْن زَيْد وَمُجَاهِد وَالضَّحَّاك : " إِلَّا أَنْ تَتَّقُوا مِنْهُمْ تَقِيَّة " وَقِيلَ : إِنَّ الْمُؤْمِن إِذَا كَانَ قَائِمًا بَيْنَ الْكُفَّار فَلَهُ أَنْ يُدَارِيهِمْ بِاللِّسَانِ إِذَا كَانَ خَائِفًا عَلَى نَفْسه وَقَلْبه مُطْمَئِنّ بِالْإِيمَانِ وَالتَّقِيَّة لَا تَحِلّ إِلَّا مَعَ خَوْف الْقَتْل أَوْ الْقَطْع أَوْ الْإِيذَاء الْعَظِيم

http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?l=arb&taf=KORTOBY&nType=1&nSora=3&nAya=28

and i'm already saying for those who will come and try to claim that At-Taqeyyah is only for Sheia muslims...
it's not only for Sheia muslims. and as you can see, here i brought ift from 4 well known Sunni commentaries.

 

[I_are_sceptical]

Bushmaster, Montalban,and Galilee, please quote extensively from the Qur'an and the Hadiths to present the case FOR belief in Muhammad and Islam, the way devout Muslims understand the situation.



Then we will see the fruits of the tree of Islam.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

extensively from the Qur'an and the Hadiths to present the case FOR belief in Muhammad and Islam

Why, it is not our scripture! Just look at history for these fruits.

 

[I_are_sceptical]

Why, it is not our scripture! Just look at history for these fruits.

1. Do you think the fruits of Christianity are found by ignoring the New Testament?

2. Earlier in this thread you gave a detailed explanation of Hebrew words in defense of Christian viewpoints. What if someone gave a detailed explanation of the Qur'an from a believer's standpoint? Would that open the possibility that Islam is one of God's messages to mankind?

 

[Maxwell511]

Matthew 7:15-20 (KJV)
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

What are some of the fruits we can look at?

Did you just compare your deity to what everybody claims to be a mortal man?

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Do you think the fruits of Christianity are found by ignoring the New Testament?

Is there Christian faith when the NT ignored?

What if someone gave a detailed explanation of the Qur'an from a believer's standpoint? Would that open the possibility that Islam is one of God's messages to mankind?

No, they are not the same. I pointed out the difference of the situation why "children" were punished who weren't children at all. Arabic study of the Quran will not change the smiting of necks, cutting of hands.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

the way devout Muslims understand the situation.

You said this above, though do you think they "understand" their situation? About 80 percent of their population can not speak the language Quran was written in.

 

[I_are_sceptical]

Apparently I'm not getting my point across.

Bushmaster, do you think that the correct view of Jesus should be given to the world by Christians or non-Christians? If you choose "Christians" as the best answer to my question, then do you think the fruits of Islam would be best explained by Muslims who accept the concept that Muhammad is the Apostle of God?

If you think that Christians, who reject Muhammad's claims, are best equipped to show the fruits of Islam, then would it be logical to also assume that the fruits of Christianity are best explained by people who are hostile to Jesus and what He taught?

 

[Galilee]

Apparently I'm not getting my point across.

Bushmaster, do you think that the correct view of Jesus should be given to the world by Christians or non-Christians? If you choose "Christians" as the best answer to my question, then do you think the fruits of Islam would be best explained by Muslims who accept the concept that Muhammad is the Apostle of God?

If you think that Christians, who reject Muhammad's claims, are best equipped to show the fruits of Islam, then would it be logical to also assume that the fruits of Christianity are best explained by people who are hostile to Jesus and what He taught?

you are missing a point there.
when we bring it ALL from islamic sources, then it different.
take a look at "At-Taqeyyah" in my previous post.
it was all explained from the islamic sources including the quran and the hadith.
can you trust a muslim to tell you the truth after reading it ?

plus, those things that you would hear from me, are well known in the middle east as exmaple.
what our muslim friends don't agree to and don't accept, is on islamic TV over here day and night !!!