MaterialWealth + Christianity=?

[PirateChris]

This is an exert from a christian magazine Ignite your faith

"But when I think about it, I realize that I am already rich. I think about the victims of Katrina. I think about the Africans suffering with AIDS while living in poverty. Millions and millions of people all across the planet dont have what I have: 10 pairs of shoes, a couple of dozen shirts, and pants. A tv. an ipod, a car need I go on? The fact is im rich your family is probably just as rich or close. And according to Jesus, this can be a big problem. He put it this way. It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God....

We have to realize that we are in a delicate soul situation. Weve got to to give money away- the usual guideline is at least 10 percent (Malachi 3:8). Weve got to use our wealth and influence to help the needy."


Alright before I say anything else I have always been an advocate of helping those not as fortunate as myself. There was a website a while back that let you lend money to people in poor countries to help them get back on their feet that I was looking into. However, this article makes it seems like its required to give wealth away to make it into heaven not much like buying your salvation from the corrupt churches that made you buy it back. I am looking into further ways to help the needy, but what is your take on this do you feel that someone who does not invest in the needy is eternally damned even if a strong follower of Christ?

My take on this is that those who are greatly blessed, which me as a large part as americans are, with all these material items presented before us it makes it hard to humble yourself before the Lord, to even get the the point where you would even have to Rely much less have a relationship with God in the first place

 

[dbot]

I think when Jesus said that, he was talking to a rich man who asked what he had to do to follow Christ (or something to that effect), to which Jesus said that he had to give away all his possessions. So when Jesus said it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter heaven, he was talking about an attatchment to material wealth.

Theres nothing wrong with having material wealth and being a Christian, however, it would be the christian (and human) thing to do to use your wealth to help those less fortunate. Gods not going to damn you for keeping your money to yourself, but I imagine he would definately call you on it.

If you have the means to help, whether your rich in money, experience or whatever, then you definately should.

 

[YahsAncientRestoration]

Heres the way Father has been retraining my mind to think.

If im in ratty clothes who wants to worship my God. If im in nice clothes its much more likely. That works for everything material it should all be used to make a statement of how Father has blessed us.

The other thing to remember is Father never looks at AMOUNTS...he looks at PORTIONS or PERCENTAGES. Most people look down on wealthy christians cause they have nice things. But the cost of those nice things compared to what they give away is VERY little. Infact some preachers actually live off 10% and invest and tithe and offer the other 90%!

 

[plum]

where'd you find this article? I'm wondering who wrote it and if I know them.

do you feel that someone who does not invest in the needy is eternally damned even if a strong follower of Christ?

well one would certainly hope not. however, can one be a "strong follower of Christ" without living generously, sacrificially, and with the interests of the poor and oppressed deeply in mind?
just curious, since my understanding of following Jesus directly impacts how I spend my money..or it should. I'm quite convicted in this area at the moment.

wealth + jesus = like trying to get on very tight jeans right out of the dryer. it's a rough fit, but not impossible

 

[PirateChris]

Well like ive said im all for doing my part. I have no problem investing some of what God has blessed me with and giving it unto the hands of those that are needy. Particulary Africa and the conflict diamonds, and the AIDS crisis there it has always been a soft spot for me. But that is another story...

Regardless like I said this article makes it sound like this is a requirement of ones salvation buying/earning your way into heaven. For example what about those wealthy christians hypothetically mentioned in the post above me. Lets say the couple has been very well Blessed by God and both become Doctors. If they donate zero-to very little of thier income to the needy, where does thier salvation stand here. Shouldnt it be just as guranteed as the rest of us? But according to this article if 10% or larger wasnt given away too bad.

 

[plum]

I truly don't see where in this article (since you only posted so much and didn't link the rest) it says salvation is at all at risk if you don't give 10% of your money away. honestly, i don't read that at all.

 

[PirateChris]

I truly don't see where in this article (since you only posted so much and didn't link the rest) it says salvation is at all at risk if you don't give 10% of your money away. honestly, i don't read that at all.

I do not have the link to it, and I thought I would spare the readers of the breadth of the article. It doesnt direclty say you lose your salvation if X% of money is not donated. But it does show the importance of this issue. And still raises the question, What about those greatly blessed spiritually and with material wealth. If Malachi 3:8 proclaims this, what happens to that hypothetical rich christian couple that never donated a dime?

 

[plum]

I am of the mind that Malachi 3:8 has been long taken out of its Scriptural and religious context by many a teacher/pastor. Though I completely agree that money and the poor are paramount issues in the life of a believer... I think Malachi 3 has been used to manipulate Christians into giving money to their local building funds et cetera.
Malachi 3:8 is in a larger context (I mean, just read Malachi 2-3 to get a better picture of who God is personally speaking to and why). even the very concept of a tithe is different now than it was in the time of the Prophets.

Still, though, and above all, we can know that love is the trust issue at hand. How do we love God and those around us? If we are given much wealth, does it not follow that we should use it to love in these ways?

 

[Trashionista]

I think its great to donate money, but I don't think its just about donating money. Anyone can give money to an organization, but I think theres something to be said for volunteering and actually getting your hands [this is a general your, btw] dirty at said organization. I mean, we can blame the rich for not giving to the poor, but I think not donating one's time to organizations is as much of an issue.

So, I don't think its about tithing or signing a checque. Actions speak much louder than words, and well, in this case, money.

 

[rocklife]

This is an exert from a christian magazine Ignite your faith

"But when I think about it, I realize that I am already rich. I think about the victims of Katrina. I think about the Africans suffering with AIDS while living in poverty. Millions and millions of people all across the planet dont have what I have: 10 pairs of shoes, a couple of dozen shirts, and pants. A tv. an ipod, a car need I go on? The fact is im rich your family is probably just as rich or close. And according to Jesus, this can be a big problem. He put it this way. It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God....

We have to realize that we are in a delicate soul situation. Weve got to to give money away- the usual guideline is at least 10 percent (Malachi 3:8). Weve got to use our wealth and influence to help the needy."


Alright before I say anything else I have always been an advocate of helping those not as fortunate as myself. There was a website a while back that let you lend money to people in poor countries to help them get back on their feet that I was looking into. However, this article makes it seems like its required to give wealth away to make it into heaven not much like buying your salvation from the corrupt churches that made you buy it back. I am looking into further ways to help the needy, but what is your take on this do you feel that someone who does not invest in the needy is eternally damned even if a strong follower of Christ?

My take on this is that those who are greatly blessed, which me as a large part as americans are, with all these material items presented before us it makes it hard to humble yourself before the Lord, to even get the the point where you would even have to Rely much less have a relationship with God in the first place

this article kind of disturbs me. I don't think of myself like that and I don't compare myself to others like that. I am also a single parent who doesn't have that kind of luxury they seem to be boasting they have.

a major point is we shouldn't even worry about 10%. we need to let God have control of it all, 100%. Jesus says you cannot serve both God and money. we need to be good stewards of God's resources, in Jesus' way. there is a parable Jesus says about someone hoarding everything, and his life was taken, and everybody got his goods he should have been sharing anyway. I'm sure Jesus shares that for a reason, anyway, we need to watch out who is our master, Jesus says we can't serve both God and money

 

[smile]

The bible states that the love of money is sin, not the money it self. Having money isn't a sin. The bible also states that God looks at the heart. Why are you giving away money? To look good or because people need it? Why are you tithing? Because you want to one-up that one guy a few seats back in church or because God commands it?

It takes money to live in this world and giving all your money away for the poor, which in fact makes you poor, I really don't think that's wise. To each his own I suppose.

With all that said, I don't agree with the article.

 

[JulySheMustFly]

There is an interesting book on this whole kind of concept if your interested. Irresistable Revolution by Shane Claiborne. You can also look up the Simple Way which is an example of this kind of living.

I can't answer this for myself right now. I'm sort of in a cross roads. What I do know for certain is that when you/if you give a way all your possessions in order to follow Christ you most certainly are not purchasing your salvation from the corporate church. Who is to say the corporate church is even where you are going to find Christ?

 

[YahsAncientRestoration]

Scripture teaches us to be faithful with the little. Tithing is a matter of the heart. He promised a blessing for tithing. If you dont want that blessing then i suppose thats your choice. I want all the blessings Father has promised me. AS far as your salvation goes, your never more righteous than the day you were washed in the blood. You may act better, but your still pure and holy in the spirit like you were on that day no matter what you do. (Im not granting a license to sin either i believe fathers grace does have limits)

 

[PirateChris]

Well lets just say it does matter

Is the person who gives 10% a month to charity any better than the person who decides to give away 10% or more of their life savings in their will? Or is the person giving the money away after they die, hoarding their money while living?


I would like to see some moderators respond to this topic, I feel it is an important issue that doesnt get touched on

 

[Sketcher]

Well lets just say it does matter

Is the person who gives 10% a month to charity any better than the person who decides to give away 10% or more of their life savings in their will? Or is the person giving the money away after they die, hoarding their money while living?

It would seem like hoarding to me if you do not give while you are living. One of the reasons we are on this earth is to do good in the first place. It's fine to give 10% total after you die, but we really ought to be giving the firstfruits of our labor to God as we live - that was really the difference between Cain and Abel's sacrifices. Abel gave the firstfruits, while Cain waited for his grain to accumulate before sacrificing.

Look at money this way: If you're a Christian, it's not your money anymore. When we become Christians, we legally give God our lives, and that includes everything we earn or acquire. It's God's money, and we are stewards over it. We should be in touch with Him over what to do with it. Now, He is a generous master, and wants us to enjoy what He has blessed us with, but He also does not want us to hoard wealth. We are to manage and invest this money wisely, using it for the benefit of His kingdom. Some of us, like Job, will be materially rich while doing so, others not so much. The important thing is to love each other despite how much or how little money we all have, and to wisely help others who are in need.

 

[SeekingtoserveYHWH]

This is an exert from a christian magazine Ignite your faith

"But when I think about it, I realize that I am already rich. I think about the victims of Katrina. I think about the Africans suffering with AIDS while living in poverty. Millions and millions of people all across the planet dont have what I have: 10 pairs of shoes, a couple of dozen shirts, and pants. A tv. an ipod, a car need I go on? The fact is im rich your family is probably just as rich or close. And according to Jesus, this can be a big problem. He put it this way. It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God....

We have to realize that we are in a delicate soul situation. Weve got to to give money away- the usual guideline is at least 10 percent (Malachi 3:8). Weve got to use our wealth and influence to help the needy."


Alright before I say anything else I have always been an advocate of helping those not as fortunate as myself. There was a website a while back that let you lend money to people in poor countries to help them get back on their feet that I was looking into. However, this article makes it seems like its required to give wealth away to make it into heaven not much like buying your salvation from the corrupt churches that made you buy it back. I am looking into further ways to help the needy, but what is your take on this do you feel that someone who does not invest in the needy is eternally damned even if a strong follower of Christ?

My take on this is that those who are greatly blessed, which me as a large part as americans are, with all these material items presented before us it makes it hard to humble yourself before the Lord, to even get the the point where you would even have to Rely much less have a relationship with God in the first place

First off I must say, that if the pic you have is you, you do not look like a pirate, and that is disappointing, because your name is piratechris.

Now to answer your post. I do not believe you'll be sent to hell for not helping the needy, though we are given numerous examples in scripture to help the needy, so I think it be best for everyone for us to do so. But what is a needy person? Someone who is lacking food shelter drink and clothing. Not your friend who 'needs' a new cell phone and their parents don't have the money to get them one.

If you are an american you are rich, period. I've been to a third world country, to the poorest part of it, and to underdeveloped parts of 2 other countries, and most people here have no idea how good they have it. We are rich! We have vehicles, we have toilets in our houses, we have a variety of foods, we have clothing of different styles and colors, we have (for the most part) uncorrupt policemen! You could be the poorest person in america, but you are still very rich comparitively.

Material wealth can be a huge stumbling block, and it is definitely not something we are to seek after.
Mat 6:31 "Therefore, do not be anxious, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or, 'What shall we drink?' or, 'What shall we wear?'
Mat 6:32 "For all these [things] the Gentiles seek, for your* heavenly Father knows that you* have need of all these [things].
Mat 6:33 "But be seeking first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these [things] will be added to you.*

If you seek after the kingdom things, in return you will be greatly blessed (depending on your level of seeking and doing kingdom work!) Look at some of the ministers today, td jakes, the bishops, benny hinn, ect. How much material wealth do they have? How much do they give from that material wealth! I guarantee they give God the glory and give Him His portion back, or they wouldn't keep increasing. I also guarantee they didn't seek ministry as a way to get rich!

Someone else posted exactly what I believe, God will provide, and will not let His ministers be a reproach unto Him and His name. Ratty clothes, crappy transportation, ect, is not exactly appealing today, especially to Americans. But I serve a God that can provide and does just that, as His word has promised. Not only has he and does he provide enough, but more than enough! Shaken down and running over! He has provided everything I've ever needed exactly when I needed it, and I know He will continue to do exceedingly abundently more and above all else as my faith and trust in Him grows more and more and comes to full fruitition!

This isn't to say that He provides me with all I think I need, but what I actually need. And a lot of dying to self had to take place for that to happen. I had to sell a lot of my possessions and throw away most of what was left of them during a... well basically wilderness journey 2 years ago. I got rid of most of what I owned as was criticized heavily for it from my family, but God used it for the good and man o man did I grow spiritually as a result of that time period!

Material possesions can be bad, but can also be used for the good, and as a testimony unto others about the God you serve!

 

[die2live]

No one has the right to say who is saved and who isn't, unless that person admits themselves that they do not claim to follow Jesus. I cannot say that someone is not saved if they say that they believe Jesus Christ died for their sins and they have repented and asked him to forgive them. When they have made that profession, then it is not for me to say whether or not they are saved.

However, Galatians 6:1 says that we are to "restore" other believers who are in sin. So if someone who claims to follow Christ is not following Christ's commandments (one of which is to care for the poor) then I can and I should correct them and point out that this is not Christlike behavior.

We all would like to explain away the incident with the rich man by saying that it is simply a matter of the heart, but this is not completely true. Obviously, the heart matters and God will surely judge the heart as well as the actions. But we can't completely explain away the actions either.

First of all, the passage of the rich man is not the only one in which Christ tells us to sell what we have and give to the poor. Take a look at my signature for exact references, but in at least two other passages, Christ gives the exact same command in his sermons. In one passages he even says NONE of us can be his disciples if we do not sell ALL that we have. Other passages, such as in James says that faith without works is dead. The Bible also says that when we are saved that God abides in us and in another passage (1 John, in my signature) it says that the love of God cannot abide in someone who overlooks the needs of the poor when he has the capability to help them. And think about that passage in Matthew (I think) where Jesus says that not everyone who says "Lord Lord" will make it into heaven. He doesn't follow that up with "you guys never really loved me" or "your hearts weren't right." No, he says "you never fed the hungry or clothed the naked or visited the prisoner."

Does this mean that anyone who does not sell all that they have and give to the poor is not saved? Honestly, I don't know for sure. I certainly hope not, as I have not met anyone who is actively trying to do so and I hate to think that none of my family or friends is going to heaven. And, luckily for me, I don't have to know. I don't have to decide who is saved and who isn't. But I would be irresponsible in my faith if I did not point out the gross misinterpretation of Scripture in this case. I would be defying God's command in Galatians 6:1 if I did not try to restore my Christian family in this area where so many have erred.

Not a popular view I know, but it may be worth considering.

 

[Sketcher]

We all would like to explain away the incident with the rich man by saying that it is simply a matter of the heart, but this is not completely true. Obviously, the heart matters and God will surely judge the heart as well as the actions. But we can't completely explain away the actions either.

First of all, the passage of the rich man is not the only one in which Christ tells us to sell what we have and give to the poor. Take a look at my signature for exact references, but in at least two other passages, Christ gives the exact same command in his sermons. In one passages he even says NONE of us can be his disciples if we do not sell ALL that we have.

Luke 12:33 calls for selling our possessions in order to give to the poor as necessary. The emphasis is to take care of the poor, and if we have to sell a few things in order to do that, it shouldn't stop us. I find it hard to believe that God would want us to make ourselves poor, since Paul gave us instruction to serve, rather than to be a burden (2 Thessalonians 3:6-10, 1 Timothy 5:8). We are also commanded to practice hospitality (Romans 12:13). How are we supposed to do that if we don't have homes?

Luke 14:33 does not call for selling of all ones possessions, it merely says to give God your entire life. This may involve selling one's possessions, but the important thing is fully giving every possession and every other aspect of your life to God. He may let you manage it for a while, but it is His.

And think about that passage in Matthew (I think) where Jesus says that not everyone who says "Lord Lord" will make it into heaven. He doesn't follow that up with "you guys never really loved me" or "your hearts weren't right." No, he says "you never fed the hungry or clothed the naked or visited the prisoner."

Let's look the passage up. It's Matthew 7:21-23.

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'"

What is His will?

"Then they asked him, 'What must we do to do the works God requires?'
Jesus answered, 'The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.'" - John 6:28-29

He does want us to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit prisoners, etc. Matthew 25:31-45 insists on it. But these cannot be works unto salvation, because we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9). Rather, works like these are fruits of the faith within us.

But I would be irresponsible in my faith if I did not point out the gross misinterpretation of Scripture in this case. I would be defying God's command in Galatians 6:1 if I did not try to restore my Christian family in this area where so many have erred.

Not a popular view I know, but it may be worth considering.

I don't believe we need to be hardline about this, and I gave Biblical reasons why above. But if you're going to be hardline about it, you'd better sell that computer.

 

[peanutbutter12]

Proverbs 13:22
A good man leaves an inheritance to his children’s children, and the wealth of the wicked is stored up for the righteous.

This verse says it all. We are to leave an inheritance to our grandchildren... quite a feat considering I know how much money I like to spend. I know how much money my wife likes to spend. That's a lot of money to be left to a third generation.

Money isn't evil, and money isn't something Christians shouldn't have, or shouldn't have a lot of. It's pretty safe to say that the people who love money don't have any. But the people who go by the idea that Christians shouldn't have money is pretty ridiculous. By that theory, in order to be a really good Christian, you'd need to be homeless.

 

[die2live]

Luke 12:33 calls for selling our possessions in order to give to the poor as necessary. The emphasis is to take care of the poor, and if we have to sell a few things in order to do that, it shouldn't stop us. I find it hard to believe that God would want us to make ourselves poor, since Paul gave us instruction to serve, rather than to be a burden (2 Thessalonians 3:6-10, 1 Timothy 5:8). We are also commanded to practice hospitality (Romans 12:13). How are we supposed to do that if we don't have homes?

Luke 14:33 does not call for selling of all ones possessions, it merely says to give God your entire life. This may involve selling one's possessions, but the important thing is fully giving every possession and every other aspect of your life to God. He may let you manage it for a while, but it is His.


Let's look the passage up. It's Matthew 7:21-23.

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'"

What is His will?

"Then they asked him, 'What must we do to do the works God requires?'
Jesus answered, 'The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.'" - John 6:28-29

He does want us to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit prisoners, etc. Matthew 25:31-45 insists on it. But these cannot be works unto salvation, because we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9). Rather, works like these are fruits of the faith within us.


I don't believe we need to be hardline about this, and I gave Biblical reasons why above. But if you're going to be hardline about it, you'd better sell that computer.

I didn't mean to say that it was a requirment for salvation. I just wanted to point out that it is a command of Jesus and it goes beyond a heart issue (although it does start with a heart issue).

You say we need only to sell our possessions as necessary. Did you know that 800 million people are going hungry and that 30,000 children (to say nothing of adults) are dying from hunger every day? I do not mean to sound condescending; it's actually an honest question because many people don't know these facts. But knowing this, I would say that if it was ever necessary, it's now.

And I didn't mean to imply that we shouldn't take care of our own needs. You're right; we don't do much good for the poor if we become burdens ourselves. I do think we should have our own homes (or rent our own homes if that is more efficient) and buy enough food and other necessities to provide for ourselves and our family and any friends that we might be blessed to minister to personally. I just think that the average first world citizen, including Christians, have a lot of things that they don't need.

ETA: About the computer. I actually regret buying this computer because I have come to realize that I could have continued using my parents computer for another couple of years, and therefore this computer is somewhat unnecessary. However, I do not consider computers to be one of the unnecessary items because they are used quite a lot in work as well as community and volunteer activities. I use my computer to help better facilitate my service and giving to the poor as well as to the rich (not financially to the rich, but in other ways). A computer is also necessary to getting through college which enables us to be more productive in society and more successful financially, both of which can and should be used to minister to those around us (including but not limited to the poor). Because of these reasons, I would consider computers to be more of an investment for long-term service and ministry than an unnecessary expense that is squandered for no other reason than my personal pleasure.