Mary as mediatrix?

[BAFRIEND]

I used the conditional "if".




I haven't seen what you are referring to - or I don't remember it. Would you like to post the post number so I can respond to it in more detail?

As far as being a Catholic priest and I'm not, that really has little bearing if the said Catholic priest is not teaching the doctrines of the Church. What matters is what the Church teaches, not what one priest teaches.

Now, again, I used the conditional "IF".

To recap then, Jesus is the sole mediator between God and man. No other person in heaven or earth can take His place. The role of Mary or any other saint is to lead the believer to Christ. The subordinate form of mediation derives its meaning and efficacy from the Lord Himself and is not something the saints posses on their own...

As pointed out above, the teaching of the Church is clear: Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between man and God. No other person in heaven or on earth can take His place.

Father Peter MJ Stravinskas, Phd. Catholic Answer Book Volume One.

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[thereselittleflower]

HE is the living Vine. HIS leafs are for the healing of the nations.

Not in this passage from Revelations. In this passage Jesus is The Lamb. A Lamb does not have leaves.

The Tree of Life is someone else.

I can't believe this...this is so wrong...how can anyone say that Jesus is not the Tree of Life?

He is the Tree of Life - just not in this context and passage. In this passage He is the LAMB seen with the Throne of God from which this River proceeds . . .

Further away from the Throne where the Lamb is (Jesus)see we find the Tree of Life on the street on either side of the River which proceeds from the Father and the Son.

So the Tree of Life cannot be Jesus in this passage.

You already demonstrated that the Tree of Life can be something other than Jesus.

You already demonstrated the Tree of Life can also be the cross He died on.

So the title Tree of Life is not exclusive to Jesus.


This passage demonstrates the Tree of Life can also be Mary and here signifies her mediatory, redemptory role, secondary to that of Jesus, fully dependent on that of Jesus from whom, along with the Father, the River proceeds. Mary is simply the channel it flows through to us. Nothing originates with Mary. All originiates with the Godhead.

Now I know for sure I can never go back to catholicism. I am not going to Mary for life and using her "leaves" for healing. Incredible. How can His cross not be the Tree of Life? Do I even need to answer that question?

Your sensibilities are being offended. That is normal and to be expected when one is trying to convert from Protestantism. We have all expereinced this and I experienced just what you are now. If this wasn't true, you would already be Catholic.

We can tell you that this will change if you perserver in prusing the truth of the Catholic faith with an open heart.

So you must ask yourself, which is more important? Offended sensiblities or God's truth? Are you willing to risk rejection of truth to assauge offended sensiblities? Or are you willing to set aside offfended senibilities to allow God to reveal to the truth of what we have been saying and that which the Church teaches?

Now, let me ask you:

Who or what is the Tree of Life?

Is it Jesus?

Or is it His Cross?

Where do you get the idea that Jesus is the Tree of Life?

Where do you get the idea that the Cross is the Tree of Life?


The Cross is not Jesus and Jesus is not the Cross, so which is it?

 

[thereselittleflower]

To recap then, Jesus is the sole mediator between God and man. No other person in heaven or earth can take His place. The role of Mary or any other saint is to lead the believer to Christ. The subordinate form of mediation derives its meaning and efficacy from the Lord Himself and is not something the saints posses on their own...

THAT IS EXACTLY what we have been saying all along BA. Have you simply been taking our words out of context in arguing against them?

This is the teachng of the Church.

This is why Mary is called Mediatrix.

As pointed out above, the teaching of the Church is clear: Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between man and God. No other person in heaven or on earth can take His place.

Jesus is the origination of Mediation between God and man. All mediaton by Mary and the saints and even ourselves is subordinate to, dependent on, and derived from Christ's Mediation. Mary and the Saints share in His mediation. They do not mediate on their own.

eter MJ Stravinskas, Phd. Catholic Answer Book Volume One..

So what in the world have you been arguing against all this time? Or have you changed your stance on this subject?

 

[isshinwhat]

Now I know for sure I can never go back to catholicism.

kisstheson, symbols mean different things in different contexts... Take the symbolism of the Morning Star in Scripture. In this case, it is used of Jesus.

Rev 22:16 (NIV) "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

Yet in this one, it is used of Satan, and in fact is where we get his name Lucifer:

Isa 14:12-15 (NIV) How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit.

So as you can see, symbols have different meanings depending upon the context. When Mary is referred to as the Tree of Life, it is only because the fruit of that tree, the part we eat and actually take into us as food, is Jesus, the food of eternal life, the Manna from Heaven. You are speaking of another symbol with a different meaning when you speak of Christ.

Another similar example is me telling my wife today that she "is the love of my life." She did not step back in horror and exclaim, "But God should be the only love of your life!" precisely because she understood the context. Ultimately the Holy Trinity is the one and only true love of my life and everything else flows from that, but she understood that the meaning of my words was limited.

Do you understand? You have to see that no one is saying that Mary is anywhere near divine. Even calling her the Tree of Life is focused on Jesus and not her. Adam and Eve ate the fruit, not the tree. In a similar manner, our focus when we say she is the Tree of Life, our eyes are on Jesus, the fruit of that tree.

 

[kisstheson]

Jesus is the one and only Tree of Life. "I am the Vine." John 15
"I am the Way, the Truth and the Life." John 14:6
His cross is the Tree of Life.

Jesus Christ The Apple Tree

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we11bcbyaKk&feature=related

 

[WarriorAngel]

If you really want to know what the Church has taught through out history, i find reading the ecf's to be quite enlightening. St John Chrysostom is one of my favorites. He wrote alot. And he is very concise. He is also considered one of the doctors of the Church.

Church Fathers Catholic Encyclopedia

You can use the search bar and type in whatever phrase - such as 'tree of life fathers.' [be sure you use fathers - that way their writings will show up in the search]

 

[thereselittleflower]

Jesus is the one and only Tree of Life. "I am the Vine." John 15

OK, let's look at this . . a vine, this is referring to a grape vine, is not a tree at all. It is a vine.

So we don't see "Tree of Life" here in scripture.

So, where does it actually say Jesus is the Tree of Life?

"I am the Way, the Truth and the Life." John 14:6
His cross is the Tree of Life.

Where does it say His cross is the Tree of Life?

I am not asking these questions to be argumentative, but to help you see that what you are saying is not explicitly stated in scripture either and to encourage you to look more closely at why you believe what you believe.

The scriptures do not call either Jesus or the cross the tree of life. This is something you have been indoctrinated into understanding by others, even if not overtly.

So it is not contrary to scripture to call Mary the Tree of Life, for scripture doesn't explicitly say anyone is specifically the Tree of Life.

Did you view the icon I posted a link to representing Mary as the Tree of Life?

 

[BAFRIEND]

Not in this passage from Revelations. In this passage Jesus is The Lamb. A Lamb does not have leaves.

The Tree of Life is someone else.- TLF

The irony here is that Revelations is the only book in the Bible not canonized by the RCC. By your comment you are stating that there is a coredeemer and diminsihing the effacy of Jesus. If I was an inquiring preconvert, I would pronbably also not want to be a Catholic if I felt you were representative of the what Catholics believe.

 

[JoabAnias]

The irony here is that Revelations is the only book in the Bible not canonized by the RCC.

Huh?

The revelation of John was in the original canon bro.

 

[BAFRIEND]

So it is not contrary to scripture to call Mary the Tree of Life, for scripture doesn't explicitly say anyone is specifically the Tree of Life.

It is contrary by its absence and by the fact that Jesus stated in regards to his mother that it is better to hear the Word and keep it.

John 11: 25-26- Jesus said to her, "I am the the Resurection and the Life, the one believing in me will live even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die."

 

[BAFRIEND]

Huh?

The revelation of John was in the original canon bro.

You are right, my bad.

 

[JoabAnias]

It is contrary by its absence and by the fact that Jesus stated in regards to his mother that it is better to hear the Word and keep it.

John 11: 25-26- Jesus said to her, "I am the the Resurection and the Life, the one believing in me will live even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die."

How about calling her the Root of Jesse or the Gate of morn.

Litany of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mediatrix of All Graces
Litany of the Blessed Virgin Mary
Litany of Loreto
A Marianist Litany to Mary
Litany of the Life of Mary
Litany of Mary of Nazareth,
Litany of Mary, Queen, Litany of Our Lady of Hope
Litany of Our Lady of Good Counsel
Litany of Our Lady of Hope,
Litany of Our Lady of Lourdes
Litany of Our Lady of Seven Sorrows by Pope Pius VII
Litany of Our Lady of Sorrows
http://www.catholiclinks.org/letanias.htm

 

[PetersKeys]

This passage demonstrates the Tree of Life can also be Mary and here signifies her mediatory, redemptory role, secondary to that of Jesus, fully dependent on that of Jesus from whom, along with the Father, the River proceeds. Mary is simply the channel it flows through to us. Nothing originates with Mary. All originiates with the Godhead.

Nowhere does it say Mary is the Tree of Life in Scripture or the Church. Christ is the vine. Everything else is secondary after that.

 

[JoabAnias]

Nowhere does it say Mary is the Tree of Life in Scripture or the Church. Christ is the vine. Everything else is secondary after that.

I think you both just said the same thing.

 

[PetersKeys]

kisstheson, no, it is not what we are saying. We are not saying that everytime you pray, you can only pray to Mary.

We can pray to the Father, to the Son, to the Holy Spirit directly. We can pray to Mary and the Saints directly.

Saying that Mary is Mediatrix takes nothing away from this. It simply is to desribe Mary's relationship to us and Christ in our salvation. Whether you every pray to Mary or not is not the issue. You don't have to pray to Mary ever outside the prayers that are given in Mass.

Saying that Mary is Mediatrix means that regardless of whether we go to her directly or not, she is always assisting us with her prayers and with the graces God gives us. For many, if not most, this is something that is invisible to them. All who come to God come with Mary's assistance whether they have awareness of this or not.

Does this help?

Yes this is a perfect description of the correct Catholic teaching. I really hope we can keep it at this so kisstheson dosen't leave the Church. Im worried that all this terminology is causing her to doubt the Church. I can just see posters like simonthezealot and Rick Otto coming to this thread and saving phrases for their personal reasons, lol..

 

[PetersKeys]

I think you both just said the same thing.

Well insinuating that Mary can be the tree of life suggests that she is the source of something, which is incorrect.

 

[isshinwhat]

PetersKeys, please read the article below, and then read The Secret of Mary by St. Louis de Monfort

http://campus.udayton.edu/mary//meditations/jessetree.html

The Jesse Tree
Rev. Johann G. Roten, SM
Sometimes called the root of Jesse or radix Jesse in Latin, the Jesse tree is a visual representation of Jesus' genealogy which dates back to the father of David who was Jesse. The biblical references used habitually to establish Christ's descent from David are the following:

• Isaiah 6,14; 11,1; 53,2
• Num 24,17
• Mat 1,1-16
• Lk 3,23-38
• Rev 22,16

In sacred art Mary is also depicted as part of Christ's family tree named after Jesse. The Fathers of the Church and Latin hymns refer to the tree of Jesse not only when speaking about the line of David (radix Jesse) but also when speaking of Mary (virga ex radice = branch or offshoot of the root of Jesse) and Jesus (flos ex virga = flower that blossoms on the branch). Based on these literary sources, the visual rendering of the Jesse tree shows Jesse in reclined and slumbering position, a tree growing out of his body on whose branches a changing and diverse group of ancestors can be observed. The tree which is patterned after the tree of life in paradise and the cross as the definitive tree of life habitually shows a series of kings of the Solomonic line, or prophets and evangelists. The top of the tree is composed of Mary, Jesus and angels, sometimes with reference to the gifts of the Spirit. But variations are frequent. The artistic motif of the Jesse tree is known beginning in the 11th century and seems to have disappeared in the 16th century. During the time of bloom it found many and diversified ways of realization from illuminations to bronze doors (for example, St. Zeno, Verona). The example here presented is taken from a psalter of the 13th century, the so-called Ingeborg Psalter (1210) conserved today in Chantilly, Paris.

Or the St. Louis de Monfort who Pope John Paul II said was a sure guide to devotion to the Blessed Virgin:

78. Chosen soul, provided you thus carefully cultivate the Tree of Life, which has been freshly planted in your soul by the Holy Spirit, I can assure you that in a short time it will grow so tall that the birds of the air will make their home in it. It will become such a good tree that it will yield in due season the sweet and adorable Fruit of honour and grace, which is Jesus, who has always been and will always be the only fruit of Mary. Happy is that soul in which Mary, the Tree of Life, is planted. Happier still is the soul in which she has been able to grow and blossom. Happier again is the soul in which she brings forth her fruit. But happiest of all is the soul which savours the sweetness of Mary's fruit and preserves it up till death and then beyond to all eternity. Amen. "Let him who possesses it, hold fast to it."

Mary as the Tree of Life, from which comes for the Fruit of Life that quenches all hunger, Jesus, is a beautiful example of the typography of the Church and I hope all come to understand how it glorifies Jesus.

 

[kisstheson]

This Mary being the tree of life business has me so upset I can't even read this stuff. JESUS is the root out of dry ground, the root of Jesse in Isaiah 53:1

You want to believe that about Mary...fine. I believe a lot of things about the Mother of God but I would never attribute to her the same titles that belong to Christ alone...tree of life, co -redemptrix, the gate...

Call it protestant thinking...whatever. This does not sit well with my spirit at all. I find no scriptural support for such nonsense. She's the root of Jesse too? Somewhere along the line the Catholic Church went astray with such teaching. "The top of the tree is composed of Mary?"

 

[WarriorAngel]

I want to suggest Mary is not the tree of life, because the tree of life existed in Paradise already.

Mary was in God's thought, but she didnt yet exist.
I believe someone told me that in another discussion...

Anyway, the tree of life is Jesus, imho.
And i will have to research it more in the ecf's.

 

[isshinwhat]

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