Mary as mediatrix?

[PetersKeys]

Jesus Himself gives us all gifts. why does He need anyone to help Him? wow...

There are some posts that are making incorrect statements. Christ himself gives us all the gifts, this is correct and Church teaching. But these gifts are related to Mary because of her Magnificat and her being his human mother and her blood/flesh connection to Jesus. But it only through Christ that these gifts are possible

 

[isshinwhat]

Jesus Himself gives us all gifts. why does He need anyone to help Him? wow...

Are you married?

 

[CathNancy]

"Look at it this way hon...if you had a child who was being crucified - it would tear you up inside in words you cannot imagine. Especially knowing there is not one thing you can do either physically or spiritually to stop it. Knowing her Son was God pulled her very heart out and sliced it. Knowing the love she felt for her Son - His precious blood, His beautiful sacrifice, His Passion she had to watch...to not stop it so the world - the very world crushing Him - was to be saved."

all this is true but she did not experience the pain He was experiencing. She didn't have spikes in her hands and feet, a crown of thorns on her head and countless whip lashes all over her body. My goodness, you almost put her up there on the cross with Christ. Of course she would have wanted to die instead of her son like any other good mother would have wanted to. But the sacrifice and the pain were christ's alone, not Mary's.

I honor Mary. I believe she is a perpetual virgin but in no way do I believe people come to Jesus through Mary and that I need Mary in order to receive His grace. Jesus does ask that we respect her but I think mary herself would refuse some of the credit you give her. Yes I have had heard talk like this from other Catholic's. The term co-redemptrix has always deeply offended me. things such as this discussion is like putting a wet blanket on any decision I had to revert.

Kisstheson, of course Mary did not feel the pain that Jesus felt, but she did feel her own pain. And as I said in my previous post, it was the death and resurection of Jesus that gives us salvation and only this. But Mary did support Jesus in His ministry. This is not to say that we are saved through Mary or anyone else but God for that matter. To Jesus goes the glory only He. God does allow all of us to participate in His redemptive work by letting us join our sorrow to His on the cross. That does not mean that my suffering or Mary's is what brings about salvation, only that God can join our suffering to His and allow us to participate in a SMALL manner.

Some people do come to Jesus through Mary. I have known of some people who first came to love Mary and through her to know and love Jesus. But this does not mean that Mary is in any way equal to Jesus, she is the greatest of all the saints and with all the saints she points us to Jesus.

Amy I would also recommend that before you discard the Catholic Church talk to a priest. We are only lay people and are not experts in Catholic theology. There is a reason why God is drawing you back to the Catholic Church, continue to search for the truth, but do so with someone who can answer your questions and help you to understand.

God Bless,
Nancy

 

[isshinwhat]

There are some posts that are making incorrect statements. Christ himself gives us all the gifts, this is correct and Church teaching. But these gifts are related to Mary because of her Magnificat and her being his human mother. But it only through Christ that these gifts are possible...

Dear God in Heaven, no one is saying anything different... If we share a friend in common and I buy a gift for him solely with my own money but I choose to allow you to give it to him from me because I know you care about him, too, that does not take away from the fact that I alone bought the gift and paid the price, nor that the gift is from me alone, though I choose to allow someone else to share in the joy and love of giving the gift.

 

[CathNancy]

Also Jesus is the one mediator between God and man, but Mary can and does mediate for us with her Son. We do not have to go to Mary, we can go directly to Jesus, but Mary is an ally that we can call upon for help. Mary does not help Jesus, Mary helps us, as do all the saints.

God Bless,
Nancy

 

[kisstheson]

That dosen't say anywhere where prayer to Mary is a required belief. Im not talking about dogma about the Immaculate conception or the Assumption.

Yes there was a post somewhere that said Jesus ALWAYS goes through Mary. That is heresy. Claiming there is another mediator is heresy. Every priest I have met said the Rosary is optional as well as prayer to the saints. It is through the Magnificat that Mary becomes connected to the graces of Christ and through Jesus's Flesh being part of her bodily flesh from birth.

Yes Little Flower said it. Frankly it makes me angry. How can people justify that? I don't care what church says this okay. If the RCC came out and said Jesus' resurrection is symbolic do I have to believe it just because the Church said so?

 

[kisstheson]

Also Jesus is the one mediator between God and man, but Mary can and does mediate for us with her Son. We do not have to go to Mary, we can go directly to Jesus, but Mary is an ally that we can call upon for help. Mary does not help Jesus, Mary helps us, as do all the saints.

God Bless,
Nancy

Yes...I do believe this Cath. But when I hear she's the Tree of Life in Jerusalem, that all graces comes through her, we have to come to Jesus through Mary I am outraged. I can't take it when people pratically put another person almost on equal level with the Son of God. JESUS is the Tree of Life. His cross is the Tree of Life. HE is the living Vine. HIS leafs are for the healing of the nations. Grace and truth come trough Jesus Christ. From HIM we all have received grace upon grace. Its all right there in the gospel of John.

 

[WarriorAngel]

"Look at it this way hon...if you had a child who was being crucified - it would tear you up inside in words you cannot imagine. Especially knowing there is not one thing you can do either physically or spiritually to stop it. Knowing her Son was God pulled her very heart out and sliced it. Knowing the love she felt for her Son - His precious blood, His beautiful sacrifice, His Passion she had to watch...to not stop it so the world - the very world crushing Him - was to be saved."

all this is true but she did not experience the pain He was experiencing. She didn't have spikes in her hands and feet, a crown of thorns on her head and countless whip lashes all over her body. My goodness, you almost put her up there on the cross with Christ. Of course she would have wanted to die instead of her son like any other good mother would have wanted to. But the sacrifice and the pain were christ's alone, not Mary's.

I honor Mary. I believe she is a perpetual virgin but in no way do I believe people come to Jesus through Mary and that I need Mary in order to receive His grace. Jesus does ask that we respect her but I think mary herself would refuse some of the credit you give her. Yes I have had heard talk like this from other Catholic's. The term co-redemptrix has always deeply offended me. things such as this discussion is like putting a wet blanket on any decision I had to revert.

True she didnt feel the pain He felt.
She held the pain of every mother's broken heart who ever lost a child.
I lost 2 nephews...and i can tell you, my SIL who lost her son needed drugs just to cope.
And Jesus - who she knew would die, didnt make it any easier for her. Imagine your love for Christ one thousand fold if you were His Mother...watching helplessly as He was whipped, as He was pierced, spit on, mocked, degraded, humilitated, struggling with a heavy cross, and crushed under thorns...and all the while wanting nothing more to hold Him and crying out inside because it had to continue.
And remaining silent thru it all because you know it must go on.

The pains are different, but are profound to acknowledge the pain that any Mother feels over such a loss. Especially when she is was incapable of screaming or releasing such suffering that we do - she had to cope - alone.

I am not comparing the pain - but i am telling you that she was not on the sidelines in His Passion.

Obviously you do not need Mary to come to Jesus - but as my former example - she still does bring ppl to Jesus.
Such as Muslims.

I think it no coincidence that Muhammad kept her virgin birth intact. This was one of the many but a single grace ordained by God in the beginning of this apostasy so as to lead the good intentioned to Christ at some point in time.

And i said in my last statements...
WE are all helpers in 'saving' others by pointing the lost to Christ.
He does the sending the of graces thru our efforts.
DO you see that?

Mary is no different. He sends out His graces by the fact she is His forever servant and loves Him more than anything we can comprehend.
She looks to Christ - and points us to Him.

I think you really are confusing things...which so many do.
So many think we put her above or in line with God. Thats not what this is.

WE put as His Helper and she is who we look to who did His Will so perfectly, and we do as God did and does.

Mary said in Luke 2- He exalted the lowly...and sent away the rich.

She was speaking of herself, she was speaking of being exalted by God.
So yes, Mary does know she had and has a role from the Lord. Scriptures show us this is true.

Jesus Himself gives us all gifts. why does He need anyone to help Him? wow...

This is certainly true that God can - but it is also true He still uses humanity to help bring others closer to Him.

Does the scriptures tell us to pray for one another?
DO not the Apostles tell us frequently that we must pray for others?

Why would they say this if God doesn't want helpers?

 

[PetersKeys]

Yes Little Flower said it. Frankly it makes me angry. How can people justify that? I don't care what church says this okay. If the RCC came out and said Jesus' resurrection is symbolic do I have to believe it just because the Church said so?

The Church would never do that. But I don't like how people are using Pious's statements to justify something that he is not saying. Whenever the church talks about graces from Mary it is meaning her connection to Christ as being her human mother and the spiritual agony she went through when CHrist was suffering. And personally protestants are gonna see this thread and use it as ammo against the church. Don't let some of the posts her make you leave the Church. Christ is the only mediator between man and God, the Church has always taught that, Catholics have a high reverance for Mary, which is good, but it dosen't go to the point of idolatry.

This is certainly true that God can - but it is also true He still uses humanity to help bring others closer to Him.

Does the scriptures tell us to pray for one another?
DO not the Apostles tell us frequently that we must pray for others?

Why would they say this if God doesn't want helpers?

I don't think kisstheson was meaning that. She's worried that people are saying that we are required to always have to go through Mary specifically to get to Christ.

 

[CathNancy]

No not everyone comes to Jesus through Mary, but those who do come to Jesus because that is where she points them.

I do not believe that the Catholic Church would ever state that the resurection is symbolic, but if it should, the faithful of the Church are also infallible and it would not stand. I trust in Jesus when He said that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all truth. The Holy Spirit would not allow such an error to be taught.

God Bless,
Nancy

 

[kisstheson]

Kisstheson, of course Mary did not feel the pain that Jesus felt, but she did feel her own pain. And as I said in my previous post, it was the death and resurection of Jesus that gives us salvation and only this. But Mary did support Jesus in His ministry. This is not to say that we are saved through Mary or anyone else but God for that matter. To Jesus goes the glory only He. God does allow all of us to participate in His redemptive work by letting us join our sorrow to His on the cross. That does not mean that my suffering or Mary's is what brings about salvation, only that God can join our suffering to His and allow us to participate in a SMALL manner.

Some people do come to Jesus through Mary. I have known of some people who first came to love Mary and through her to know and love Jesus. But this does not mean that Mary is in any way equal to Jesus, she is the greatest of all the saints and with all the saints she points us to Jesus.

Amy I would also recommend that before you discard the Catholic Church talk to a priest. We are only lay people and are not experts in Catholic theology. There is a reason why God is drawing you back to the Catholic Church, continue to search for the truth, but do so with someone who can answer your questions and help you to understand.

God Bless,
Nancy

I agree with all you said here as well.

 

[PetersKeys]

No not everyone comes to Jesus through Mary, but those who do come to Jesus because that is where she points them.

I do not believe that the Catholic Church would ever state that the resurection is symbolic, but if it should, the faithful of the Church are also infallible and it would not stand. I trust in Jesus when He said that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all truth. The Holy Spirit would not allow such an error to be taught.

God Bless,
Nancy

If the RCC denied the ressurection as symbolic(which would never happen), then the eastern orthodox would have a flood of new converts coming in.

 

[WarriorAngel]

The Church would never do that. But I don't like how people are using Pious's statements to justify something that he is not saying. Whenever the church talks about graces from Mary it is meaning her connection to Christ as being her human mother and the spiritual agony she went through when CHrist was suffering. And personally protestants are gonna see this thread and use it as ammo against the church. Don't let some of the posts her make you leave the Church. Christ is the only mediator between man and God, the Church has always taught that, Catholics have a high reverance for Mary, which is good, but it dosen't go to the point of idolatry.




I don't think kisstheson was meaning that. She's worried that people are saying that we are required to always have to go through Mary specifically to get to Christ.

Its not a requirement, or something, it does happen however.

That is the distinct difference i think in this discussion.

Its not required that Mary is ...
But that it is that these things have happened.
Thus the titles.

 

[kisstheson]

If the RCC denied the ressurection as symbolic(which would never happen), then the eastern orthodox would have a flood of new converts coming in.

LOL!

 

[kisstheson]

The Church would never do that. But I don't like how people are using Pious's statements to justify something that he is not saying. Whenever the church talks about graces from Mary it is meaning her connection to Christ as being her human mother and the spiritual agony she went through when CHrist was suffering. And personally protestants are gonna see this thread and use it as ammo against the church. Don't let some of the posts her make you leave the Church. Christ is the only mediator between man and God, the Church has always taught that, Catholics have a high reverance for Mary, which is good, but it dosen't go to the point of idolatry.




I don't think kisstheson was meaning that. She's worried that people are saying that we are required to always have to go through Mary specifically to get to Christ.

Right!

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

One of the things not touched on in this thread which I think is important is that Mary is the eschatological icon of the Church. ANd also her relationship in general to the CHurch- you know, that she is the mother of ALL of Jesus- the Head- and the Body.

Jesus does in some sense- perpetually go through Mary--because of savalvation being outside of time....the Church (which is Jesus) is perpetualy being birthed. Mary is perpetually the channel of God bestowing salvific grace to the world.

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

Kisstheson, of course Mary did not feel the pain that Jesus felt, but she did feel her own pain. And as I said in my previous post, it was the death and resurrection of Jesus that gives us salvation and only this. But Mary did support Jesus in His ministry. This is not to say that we are saved through Mary or anyone else but God for that matter. To Jesus goes the glory only He. God does allow all of us to participate in His redemptive work by letting us join our sorrow to His on the cross. That does not mean that my suffering or Mary's is what brings about salvation, only that God can join our suffering to His and allow us to participate in a SMALL manner.

Some people do come to Jesus through Mary. I have known of some people who first came to love Mary and through her to know and love Jesus. But this does not mean that Mary is in any way equal to Jesus, she is the greatest of all the saints and with all the saints she points us to Jesus.
There is a reason why God is drawing you back to the Catholic Church, continue to search for the truth, but do so with someone who can answer your questions and help you to understand.

I pray that soon The Church will get rid of those confusing and misleading terms that the OP referenced. They only serve to confuse and mislead. They are a serious obstacle to many who are sincerely seeking to follow Christ and seeking to find His Church.

May the grace of Our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you always.

Yours in Christ.

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

I pray that Catholics will actually get off their butts and be catechised so as to understand the terminology which the Church uses.

 

[isshinwhat]

Yes...I do believe this Cath.

Then I believe we agree, and I apologize for any shortcomings in my explination which might have caused you strife.

 

[isshinwhat]

I pray that Catholics will actually get off their butts and be catechised so as to understand the terminology which the Church uses.

Exactly! New Christians are tripped up by the Trinity, the Eucharist, and many other difficult articles of the Catholic Faith. I applaud kisstheson for taking the time to continue discussing what is obviously a difficult subject for her, spiritually and emotionally. There is a time and a place to learn about everything, and just because a thing is difficult to understand does not mean it it not worthwhile to learn about. Everything that is said of Mary can be said of the Church as a whole, and thus to some extent of ourselves and our relationship with the Father. May the Holy Spirit enlighten our minds, and lift our hearts!