Mary and the early Church

[Carl Emerson]

She was present at Pentecost, the Birth of His Church, arguably the most important event in Church History.

Refresh my memory here - where is this mentioned ?

 

[concretecamper]

Refresh my memory here - where is this mentioned ?

Immediately preceding the decent of the Holy Spirit, we see:

Acts 1:14 All these were persevering with one mind in prayer with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
1:15 In those days Peter rising up in the midst of the brethren, said (now the number of persons together was about an hundred and twenty):
1:16 Men, brethren, the scripture must needs be fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who was the leader of them that apprehended Jesus:

I don't think you could come to any other conclusion other than Mary was there.

Fun fact: how the dedication of the Temple in the OT pre figures the Birth of the Church in the NT

1. Both had fire come down from Heaven.
2. OT had 120 priests, Pentecost had 120 disciples.
3. The Ark of the OT was present at the dedication of the Temple, The Ark of the NT was present at the start of the Church.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Immediately preceding the decent of the Holy Spirit, we see:

Acts 1:14 All these were persevering with one mind in prayer with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
1:15 In those days Peter rising up in the midst of the brethren, said (now the number of persons together was about an hundred and twenty):
1:16 Men, brethren, the scripture must needs be fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who was the leader of them that apprehended Jesus:

I don't think you could come to any other conclusion other than Mary was there.

Fun fact: how the dedication of the Temple in the OT pre figures the Birth of the Church in the NT

1. Both had fire come down from Heaven.
2. OT had 120 priests, Pentecost had 120 disciples.
3. The Ark of the OT was present at the dedication of the Temple, The Ark of the NT was present at the start of the Church.

Yes - good reason to believe she was there.

Yes - strong links between the Temple foreshadow and Pentecost the fulfillment.

 

[Betho]

I make the following observation: most Catholics naturally accept many “sexist” biblical translations of Matthew 1:19. The verb there is literally “leave”, in the sense of freeing, even “preserving”. Joseph has two titles in this chapter: Righteous and son of David. Joseph thought that the “embryo” generated in Mary was the son of an angel, a male being, therefore, he did not want to commit adultery against celestial dignities. When Elizabeth said: “Blessed is she who believed, for there will be a fulfillment of those things which were told her from the Lord.” in Luke 1:45, this also applies to Joseph. Everyone there knew of the divine promises made by the angel. So, when Joseph found out that the “embryo” generated was not from the angel, but from the Holy Spirit, a gender-neutral entity in Greek and feminine in Hebrew, adultery could not occur, he accepted to take Mary as his wife.

 

[RileyG]

I suspect that a big part of why Mary isn't mentioned much in Acts and beyond is that the subjects of those books were other things: the acts of the Apostles, or pastoral epistles addressing doctrinal issues and local events, or eschatology.

I agree with this. She is mentioned once as being filled with the Holy Spirit and was in prayer. That’s all.

 

[Lukaris]

Here are mentions the Virgin Mary among ancient Christians. As far as St. Paul, I personally believe that his association with St. Luke is a source for some of the Gospel of Luke.

Early Church Writings On Mary — Behold The Truth

www.beholdthetruth.com

 

[BNR32FAN]

Friends I am interested in why Mary the Mother of Jesus hardly gets a mention by Paul and didn't seem to have a significant role in the early church.

These are the three verses with the name Mary - some of which may be referring to others.

Acts 1:14
All these were continually devoting themselves with one mind to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

Acts 12:12
And when he realized this, he went to the house of Mary, the mother of John, who was also called Mark, where many were gathered together and were praying.

Romans 16:6
Greet Mary, who has worked hard for you.

Do we have any other credible evidence that Mary had a role in the church ?

I think because of the culture at that time women in general didn’t have much influence in the church. I think they were more silent supporters back then. I see a similar pattern in the OT as well. Women are mentioned in the OT stories but to my knowledge not mentioned prophesying or preaching.

 

[Betho]

I think because of the culture at that time women in general didn’t have much influence in the church. I think they were more silent supporters back then. I see a similar pattern in the OT as well. Women are mentioned in the OT stories but to my knowledge not mentioned prophesying or preaching.

For instance, consider the genealogy presented in Matthew 1. It includes four Jewish matriarchs with questionable sexual reputations. If a Jew doubted the virgin birth of Mary, he would be obliged, by conscience, to respect her. After all, he would have already read about the four matriarchs in a genealogy that was traditionally passed down only through the male lineage.

 

[Lukaris]

A pivotal and brutally tragic event in the Maccabean revolt is the martyrdom of a mother ( her name is not mentioned), her 7 sons, & Eleazar ( which I believe “Lazarus” is the Greek version of Eleazar) the priest. This led to the eventual cleansing of the temple from the pagan abominations performed in it.

This is where Chanukah originated and the Lord proclaimed that He was the good shepherd during Chanukah ( John 10:1-30 in particular John 10:22. Interestingly, the resurrection of Lazarus is in John 11:1-44. I can’t help but see some relationship to the fact that a faithful woman contributed to the cleansing of the Temple & that the Lord born of the blessed Virgin Mother fulfilled Chanukah in His birth.

The Maccabean accounts I mentioned are from 2 Maccabees chapters 7 through 10.

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Maccabees 7 - Good News Translation

A Mother and Her Sons Die for Their Faith - On another occasion a Jewish mother and her seven sons were arrested. The king was having them beaten to force them to eat pork. Then one of the young men said, What do you hope to gain by doing this? We would rather die than abandon the traditions of...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Carl Emerson]

Everyone there knew of the divine promises made by the angel. So, when Joseph found out that the “embryo” generated was not from the angel, but from the Holy Spirit, a gender-neutral entity in Greek and feminine in Hebrew, adultery could not occur, he accepted to take Mary as his wife.

There are other possibilities - Joseph may have in himself, questioned her faithfulness.

Matthew 1:20
But when he had thought this over, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I think because of the culture at that time women in general didn’t have much influence in the church. I think they were more silent supporters back then. I see a similar pattern in the OT as well. Women are mentioned in the OT stories but to my knowledge not mentioned prophesying or preaching.

It seems women were recognised as Prophets both in Judaism at the time of Jesus, and the Church after Pentecost.

 

[Betho]

There are other possibilities - Joseph may have in himself, questioned her faithfulness.

Matthew 1:20
But when he had thought this over, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

If you consider the behavior you explained about Joseph towards Mary as fair, there will be no problems.

 

[Carl Emerson]

If you consider the behavior you explained about Joseph towards Mary as fair, there will be no problems.

Sorry, I am struggling to understand your point...

 

[Betho]

Sorry, I am struggling to understand your point...

The Bible states that Joseph was righteous. Therefore, any interpretation of Joseph’s actions must highlight his righteousness.

 

[Bob Crowley]

Mary is not mentioned often but on those occasions when she is referred to, it is always important.

The first is the opening address by the archangel Gabriel “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

There is the episode in the temple, after which "his mother (Mary) kept all these things in her heart". If anybody hardly gets a mention it's Joseph.

There is the wedding at Cana, when Christ performs his first public miracle at her request, and starts His real ministry. She points to Him "Do whatever He tells you."

She is mentioned here and there, but at the cross Christ takes pains (literally) to hand her over to John, and John to her. In doing so Christ was telling all his disciples to take Mary as their spiritual mother, and for Mary to "live" in the home of all His followers. John was standing in proxy for the rest of us.

After that she fades from view, but I've always understood she was in the room with the other disciples when Christ materialised amongst them.

She would have been seen as important in the early church, but for the apostles who knew Christ directly, their emphasis would have been on Him.

And they lived in a patriarchical society.

She's more important than a lot of us think. I remember my old PRESBYTERIAN pastor saying to me once "There's been a lot of them!" (Marian apparitions) and he added "I think they're a judgement on a divided church".

 

[Carl Emerson]

She is mentioned here and there, but at the cross Christ takes pains (literally) to hand her over to John, and John to her. In doing so Christ was telling all his disciples to take Mary as their spiritual mother, and for Mary to "live" in the home of all His followers. John was standing in proxy for the rest of us.

I understand some branches of the church take this view, but it seems to be more a statement of traditional interpretation than a fact clearly established in Scripture.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The Bible states that Joseph was righteous. Therefore, any interpretation of Joseph’s actions must highlight his righteousness.

Are you suggesting that Joseph was perfect ?

 

[chevyontheriver]

Are you suggesting that Joseph was perfect ?

I’d say not perfect, but one righteous dude, so reasonably close.

 

[JoeT]

Are you suggesting that Joseph was perfect ?

I would suggest Joseph was a just man [Cf. Matthew 1:19]

 

[Bob Crowley]

I understand some branches of the church take this view, but it seems to be more a statement of traditional interpretation than a fact clearly established in Scripture.

The Scriptures themselves were oral traditions at some stage, and various interpretations of Scripture are also traditional interpretations eg. Sola Scriptura.