Marital customs dont make the marraige.

[Gridlock]

......

 

[Whitestone]

A church is not an entity according to the goverment without that little piece of paper.

Guess all us home churchers are fooling ourselves.
We must not belong to Gods church if it has to be recognized by state law.

I wonder what God thinks about that ?

I think God would want to you to do what you feel compeled to, to preach the gospel. If being able to preach at a hospitol or home requires registering for a license thats what you should do. Paul suffered being beaten, imprisoned, and other tribulations to spread the gospel. Going to get a piece of paper from the goverment doesn't seem that difficult.

Whitestone

 

[Gridlock]

I think God would want to you to do what you feel compeled to, to preach the gospel. If being able to preach at a hospitol or home requires registering for a license thats what you should do. Paul suffered being beaten, imprisoned, and other tribulations to spread the gospel.

Going to get a piece of paper from the goverment doesn't seem that difficult.

Whitestone

What will the govt require next ?

Paul suffered, he did not turn over the church or christian marriages to the secular government.

and thats not the point.
They have no right to permit us to marry or to be a ''church''
None at all.

 

[Gridlock]

In the U.S., it is also law for a church to be recognized by the state that a charter be secured.
Basically a license to be a church.

Without the states permission, you arent a church and have no LEGAL right to call yourself as much.

(sounds like "without the states permission, you arent married and have no legal right to call yourself as much)

A church is not an entity according to the goverment without that little piece of paper.

Guess all us home churchers are fooling ourselves.
We must not belong to Gods church if it has to be recognized by state law.

I wonder what God thinks about that ?

How many here would say ''you need to go get a license to be a 'church'' if I had a church group in my home?
Not one Id bet.

If I wanted my church to be recognized by the state, then having the license is the only way.
But I am part of the church of Jesus Christ becuase of my repenting and following HIm.
Not because I went downtown and applied for a church charter.

Its the same exact thing.
The church belongs to Jesus Christ, it is His bride
No one has the authority to ''permit'' us to be a church, yet we coddle right up to those who require it.

The marriage covenant was given to man by God Himself as a holy symbol of our relationship to Him and no one has the right to ''permit'' man to marry.

"For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."

This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and to the church.
(Eph 5:31-32 EMTV)

The point is that without the charter we are not a church by law.
Without a paper we are not married by law.

In Both cases these are the jurisdiction of God and His law as far as the christian covenant of marriage or being saved and part of His church goes.

If we want the goverment to recognise our marriage or our church then we file the appropriate forms.
If we dont, then we file nothing.

 

[Flynmonkie]

Before too long, one of us will be nailing our own sort of Theses to someones door hopefully.[/color]

Gotta Love this , No but Gridlock tell us how you really feel! (looking for my hammer and nails for you!)

Seriously though there is something to the idea of showing ourselves "honest before men."

Romans 12:17
Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

2 Corinthians 8:21
Providing for honest things, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men.

Hebrews 13:18
Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly.

Philippians 4:8
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

Unfortunately this is the "line of thinking" or requirement of some churches to prove honesty. Is this right, in all cases I do not believe it so. However, I am not ready to discount the idea that there are positive aspects to the thought.

Because of Paul’s struggle and abuse it gives me hope in life. Without that example, I would have been lost. Sometimes it seems like a double edge sword. On one hand we should as Christians to fight to keep our rights intact, on the other hand I wish the government would get out of Gods business! We will never see moral reform through politics. It is that simple.

Today’s misspent enthusiasm for political solutions to the moral problems of our culture arises from a distorted view of both politics and Christianity – too low a view of the power of a sovereign God and too high a view of the ability of man. The idea that human systems, reformed by Christian influence, pave the road to the Kingdom – or at least, to revival – has the same utopian ring that one finds in Marxist literature. It also ignores the consistent lesson of history that shows that laws are most often reformed as a result of powerful spiritual movements (not vice versa). I know of no case where a spiritual movement was achieved by passing laws ("The Power Illusion." Power Religion, ed. Michael S. Horton [Chicago: Moody Press, 1992] p.32).

One thing I know for sure is that I am teaching my children the correct view of Marriage. Just exactly whom they are making that vow both privately and public statement to. I am also teaching them about serving fellow Christians, Fellowship and sharing not condemnation and conviction. Plain and simple the difference between right and wrong.

 

[Gridlock]

On one hand we should as Christians to fight to keep our rights intact, on the other hand I wish the government would get out of Gods business!

One thing I know for sure is that I am teaching my children the correct view of Marriage. Just exactly whom they are making that vow both privately and public statement to

Whats sad is this.

If we make even a public proclaimation, a covenant in front of 10,000 of our brethren, 95% of those would say ''its not enough, youre not married'' if we didnt have a license.

95% of them would outright reject a covenant made to God without seeing a paper from the state ''permitting'' us to do something that God has already permitted us to do.

Sorry, but the idea of that churns my stomach.
As does the willful turning of our churches over to a secular state to govern.

Honestly, the only reasons we are getting a license in July is for legal purposes and for her family who are christian who wouldnt understand.

Her and I have agreed together that our union is before God alone and those are the only reason we are getting a license.

Gotta Love this , No but Gridlock tell us how you really feel! (looking for my hammer and nails for you!)

I imagine if the antichrist comes into power in my lifetime that Ill be one of the first executed.
Me and my big mouth that I just cannot seem to keep shut.

Seriously though there is something to the idea of showing ourselves "honest before men."

I agree.
But not having a marriage or church license doesnt show them that Im not honest. It shows them Im not selling to the state that which belongs to God.
If I had a church, Id pay my income taxes just to keep from turning my church over to secular governemt.

 

[Flynmonkie]

Whats sad is this.

If we make even a public proclaimation, a covenant in front of 10,000 of our brethren, 95% of those would say ''its not enough, youre not married'' if we didnt have a license.

95% of them would outright reject a covenant made to God without seeing a paper from the state ''permitting'' us to do something that God has already permitted us to do.

Sorry, but the idea of that churns my stomach.

Your preachin to the choir here.

I imagine if the antichrist comes into power in my lifetime that Ill be one of the first executed.
Me and my big mouth that I just cannot seem to keep shut.

Look at me - I'm the one giving you the hammer and nails.....now where does that put me?

 

[E-beth]

It's called being obedient.

No, the piece of paper doesn't make you married in God's eyes. When you make a vow to someone under the blessing of the Lord, THAT makes a marriage.

However, legally you need the piece of paper. Nobody WANTS to give Caesar what is his. I detest paying income taxes. But doing a job and being paid in cash is not the way to deal with my distaste for paying my taxes. Some things in life you do because you have to. Finding loopholes to jump through only makes you dishonest and rebellious and not obedient to what Jesus said: Give Caesar what is his, and give God what is His. Each are separate and necesary to be good citizens and good Christians.

 

[Gridlock]

It's called being obedient.

No, the piece of paper doesn't make you married in God's eyes. When you make a vow to someone under the blessing of the Lord, THAT makes a marriage.

However, legally you need the piece of paper. Nobody WANTS to give Caesar what is his. I detest paying income taxes. But doing a job and being paid in cash is not the way to deal with my distaste for paying my taxes. Some things in life you do because you have to. Finding loopholes to jump through only makes you dishonest and rebellious and not obedient to what Jesus said: Give Caesar what is his, and give God what is His. Each are separate and necesary to be good citizens and good Christians.

I guess we will see it differently then sis

As I presented before, 95% of the brethren today would tell me a vow before God is not sufficient.

I have to ask tho, at what point will the church start standing up ?
How far will it go?
When its too late and govt has a chokehold on us, then will we stand and pretend its ok at that point to not accept everything the state forces on us as His children?

Its not being ok to obey the state when they are permitting you to do something that God has already permitted.
Thats to me is just being gullible (an opinion of mine, no need for offense)

What is amazing is Ill bet most here are fine with the idea that the church isnt the church at all without ''permission''

As I said, it churns my stomach when I think about it.
All under the guise of being ''obedient"

Thank our Lord above some men like Tydale, Luther, Wycliffe and Calvin werent ''obedient''.

 

[Gridlock]

I keep seeing posts where the only argument presented is this ''laws of the land'' stuff.

I have to ask, where would the prostestant church today be if the reformers had all obeyed and conformed to what they were told?

What if Jesus had obeyed everything He was told?
Paul?
Peter?
John the Baptist?

Is there a single cause today that you would stand up for as His church and do as those men of the past did and some lost their lives over?

anything worth disobeying the ''laws of the land" over in your opinion?

 

[I'ddie4him]

I keep seeing posts where the only argument presented is this ''laws of the land'' stuff.

I have to ask, where would the prostestant church today be if the reformers had all obeyed and conformed to what they were told?

What if Jesus had obeyed everything He was told?
Paul?
Peter?
John the Baptist?

Is there a single cause today that you would stand up for as His church and do as those men of the past did and some lost their lives over?

anything worth disobeying the ''laws of the land" over in your opinion?

I would rather follow the laws of the land AND Gods law and be doubly covered. Is following BOTH so wrong ??

 

[jd032700]

I would rather follow the laws of the land AND Gods law and be doubly covered. Is following BOTH so wrong ??

AMEN!!!!!!!! The Bible tells us to follow the laws of the land. I believe that this applies up until the laws of the land tell me to do something different that what the Word of God tells me to do. I see nothing in getting a marriage license that contradicts any of the Bible's comands.

 

[Flynmonkie]

I would rather follow the laws of the land AND Gods law and be doubly covered. Is following BOTH so wrong ??

I believe the point is not to loose sight of what is truly important.

Matthew 15:9And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.

 

[I'ddie4him]

AMEN!!!!!!!! The Bible tells us to follow the laws of the land. I believe that this applies up until the laws of the land tell me to do something different that what the Word of God tells me to do. I see nothing in getting a marriage license that contradicts any of the Bible's comands.

Exactly.

 

[I'ddie4him]

I believe the point is not to loose sight of what is truly important.

Matthew 15:9And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.

I haven't lost sight of anything. My eyes and ears are wide open.

 

[Be Happy]

AMEN!!!!!!!! The Bible tells us to follow the laws of the land. I believe that this applies up until the laws of the land tell me to do something different that what the Word of God tells me to do. I see nothing in getting a marriage license that contradicts any of the Bible's comands.

I suggest you havent realized that marriage belongs to God alone then.

God created it as a symbol of our relationship to Him, not our relationship to the state of Ohio, who, btw, says you are marrying THEM as well as your spouse.

yeah, I have a multitude of issues with that one alone, not to mention that a license serves very little purpose but to make money for the lawyers when 50%+ of married couples file divorce.

 

[E-beth]

I have a valid Ohio marriage license. I am not married to the state, as I am still married legally and live in another state. It simply means that I am legally changing my status from single to married. I even changed the name on my social security card to reflect that.

It seems kinda defeatist to refuse to get a marriage license because it will cost you money when you get divorced.

If we made marriages in which we were obedient to the laws God put forth we wouldn't need to worry about divorce.

If getting a marriage license somehow violated God's laws, I would not get one. If by getting one it meant that I would raise my children to be atheists, I would not get one. If a marriage license meant that I would be agreeing to not worship the Lord, I would not get one.

But because I am already looking forward to paying divorce lawyer fees? Nu-uh!

 

[jd032700]

I suggest you havent realized that marriage belongs to God alone then.

God created it as a symbol of our relationship to Him, not our relationship to the state of Ohio, who, btw, says you are marrying THEM as well as your spouse.

yeah, I have a multitude of issues with that one alone, not to mention that a license serves very little purpose but to make money for the lawyers when 50%+ of married couples file divorce.

Please don't tell me what I have and haven't realized. Yes, I believe that marriage belongs to God. My marriage license does not take away from that.

 

[jd032700]

I have a valid Ohio marriage license. I am not married to the state, as I am still married legally and live in another state. It simply means that I am legally changing my status from single to married. I even changed the name on my social security card to reflect that.

It seems kinda defeatist to refuse to get a marriage license because it will cost you money when you get divorced.

If we made marriages in which we were obedient to the laws God put forth we wouldn't need to worry about divorce.

If getting a marriage license somehow violated God's laws, I would not get one. If by getting one it meant that I would raise my children to be atheists, I would not get one. If a marriage license meant that I would be agreeing to not worship the Lord, I would not get one.

But because I am already looking forward to paying divorce lawyer fees? Nu-uh!

 

[Be Happy]

I have a valid Ohio marriage license. I am not married to the state, as I am still married legally and live in another state. It simply means that I am legally changing my status from single to married. I even changed the name on my social security card to reflect that.

I was married in Ohio twice.
I read the material.
It does state that the state of Ohio is a third party in your marraige.

an exerpt from another site, and I will see if I can track down the official info for you too

"The most blatant declaration of this fact that I have ever found is a brochure entitled "With This Ring I Thee Wed." It is found in county courthouses across Ohio where people go to obtain their marriage licenses. It is published by the Ohio State Bar Association.

The opening paragraph under the subtitle "Marriage Vows" states, "Actually, when you repeat your marriage vows you enter into a legal contract. There are three parties to that contract. 1.You; 2. Your husband or wife, as the case may be; and 3. the State of Ohio."

It seems kinda defeatist to refuse to get a marriage license because it will cost you money when you get divorced.

That is only a symptom of the disease, not the illness itself.

The state says you are not legally married before them without a license.

Talk to a lawyer, the state hasnt the least care in the world if you are married ''before God'' or not.
If you are vowed before Him, but not to them, they simply do not legally recognize the marriage.

The state doesnt care enough about the topic to even make the assertion that a man and woman arent married ''before God'' without a license.
If they did care, theyd be putting people in jail for ''living together"

the lack of a license is nothing more than just not having the state recognize your union before God.
The State never attempts to get involved in the religious aspect of marriage anymore.
It is soley a legalities thing to protect everyone involved.
If a christian couple feels that they dont need this protection, that is up to them.

If we made marriages in which we were obedient to the laws God put forth we wouldn't need to worry about divorce.

Exactly.
Instead we rely upon a cattle prod (a legal contract) to force us to stay in line.
If mens vows meant what they should, no one would ever need a license.

If getting a marriage license somehow violated God's laws, I would not get one.

Let me ask, have you honestly studied things out?
I wasnt appalled by the whole thing until I really got into the study of it all.
But even if you do study it, you may not change your mind.
We're all different and we all can read the same bible and come up with entirely different views.

I cannot, in good conscience, see a license as a marriage but only as protection for my wife from a state who would take everything from her if I die without the license.

If by getting one it meant that I would raise my children to be atheists, I would not get one. If a marriage license meant that I would be agreeing to not worship the Lord, I would not get one.

agreed.

We know the laws have changed over time.
They will continue to change as things grow nearer then end.
In our lifetimes things may be ok, but how do we know that talking our daughters into getting licensed isnt going to be somethign they regret 10 years into marriage?

The state of Ohio already says they are a third party in your marriage.
Not just in the case you divorce, but the day you sign your license.
Moses didnt get involved like that unless a crime had been commited (ex. adultery) or a divorce was in the works.

But because I am already looking forward to paying divorce lawyer fees? Nu-uh!

Thats fine if you dont feel anything against it.

But as I said, I cannot, in good conscience, see a license as anything to do with my union.
It is simply legal protection from a corrupt state who would otherwise leave her out to dry if I pass on.