Lying for the Gospel's sake?

[enoch son]

I have known many missionaries that in order to enter a country could not write down they were missionaries. If they were to write that down they would not be allowed into that country. So were they lying?

 

[grasping the after wind]

I have known many missionaries that in order to enter a country could not write down they were missionaries. If they were to write that down they would not be allowed into that country. So were they lying?

If they deliberately misled then they were lying. How does one expect the Gospel to be believed by the non Christian when it is espoused by one who has been untruthful in other matters?

 

[disciple-ofjesus]

exactly. a lie is a lie. The Word of God says He hates a lying tongue. NO conditions put on that.

 

[hislegacy]

I'm actually going to be a speaker at a Christian leadership conference,

In retrospect, if the above quote is the purpose of your trip, and you reply anything else, then it is a lie. Prepare for the possibility of being detained and questioned.

Believe God for favor and act in integrity.

 

[GodDreamer]

And if they ask "what type of leadership conference?"

I'm not sure I see any difference between that and just saying I'm a tourist. I will, after all, be doing some tourism activities while I'm there.

They usually don't ask anything further....and in most cases it was just our leader who was asked why we were in Ecuador. However I don't really see it as lying by saying you're tourist....you will no doubt be doing tourist like things....you will also be sleeping there...you don't need to tell them you're doing that too. HOWEVER, this is just my opinion, and if you are feeling convicted otherwise, then please, go with your conviction.

 

[lismore]

Apparently, if we say we're there for missions work or church work we'll be detained and questioned.

Hello

It's easy for me to give advice to you, because I'm not going into the same situation. However here it goes.

I posted the phrase 'Christian tourism' on the other thread, because I get the impression modern missions are that. A scoot in, some bless me sessions and back out again.

If you decide to tell the truth and are detained and questioned, it's a minor inconvenience. I have been detained and questioned in a foreign country twice before. They cant punish you if you're not doing anything illegal. Answer their questions calmly and get through it. Who knows you might get the chance to witness to one of the guards. That might be the divine appointment. Did Paul and Silas not win a jailor for God?

There was a Christian missionary in my city several hundred years ago who was burned at the stake for preaching the gospel. Compared to that, it's not a big deal.

But again, I don't have to walk in your shoes, so it's cheap advice.

God Bless!

 

[lismore]

But I do find this an interesting seeming inconsistency with the organization. They want me to promise not to drink or smoke or chew tobacco but they want me to promise to lie to the officials.

From their side it might make sense.

They want everyone quickly through immigration to get the show on the road.

They don't want anyone to drink or smoke because they're reaching out primarily to attract conservative types.

 

[enoch son]

So much then for 700 churchs they help build and the thousands of souls that hear and came to know God.

 

[jeolmstead]

Consider this:

1Sa 16:1 The LORD said to Samuel, "How long will you go on grieving over Saul? I have rejected him as king of Israel. But now get some olive oil and go to Bethlehem, to a man named Jesse, because I have chosen one of his sons to be king."
1Sa 16:2 "How can I do that?" Samuel asked. "If Saul hears about it, he will kill me!" The LORD answered, "Take a calf with you and say that you are there to offer a sacrifice to the LORD.
1Sa 16:3 Invite Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will tell you what to do. You will anoint as king the man I tell you to."
1Sa 16:4 Samuel did what the LORD told him to do and went to Bethlehem, where the city leaders came trembling to meet him and asked, "Is this a peaceful visit, seer?"
1Sa 16:5 "Yes," he answered. "I have come to offer a sacrifice to the LORD. Purify yourselves and come with me." He also told Jesse and his sons to purify themselves, and he invited them to the sacrifice


(Apparently God told Samual to lie to Saul)

John O.

 

[jeolmstead]

By the way, if you run into my old job while you are there tell it I miss it and I hope it comes back home some day

John O.

 

[disciple-ofjesus]

WHAT???????????????????? GOD told someone to lie? UH, no. God HATES a lying tongue. HE is NOT going to tell someone to do it. There is no lie in what you quoted. I am GOBSMACKED.

 

[enoch son]

Consider this:

1Sa 16:1 The LORD said to Samuel, "How long will you go on grieving over Saul? I have rejected him as king of Israel. But now get some olive oil and go to Bethlehem, to a man named Jesse, because I have chosen one of his sons to be king."
1Sa 16:2 "How can I do that?" Samuel asked. "If Saul hears about it, he will kill me!" The LORD answered, "Take a calf with you and say that you are there to offer a sacrifice to the LORD.
1Sa 16:3 Invite Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will tell you what to do. You will anoint as king the man I tell you to."
1Sa 16:4 Samuel did what the LORD told him to do and went to Bethlehem, where the city leaders came trembling to meet him and asked, "Is this a peaceful visit, seer?"
1Sa 16:5 "Yes," he answered. "I have come to offer a sacrifice to the LORD. Purify yourselves and come with me." He also told Jesse and his sons to purify themselves, and he invited them to the sacrifice


(Apparently God told Samual to lie to Saul)

John O.

Great point!!!!!!!!! All so in ezekiel 14 God sent a lying spirit into the prophets. Opps. when ones goes into Mexico one is asked where are you going. Do not say this town or that town for if you are stopped not in that town you will or can be taken to jail. But say to Mexico which means Mexcio city to them but the whole country to you.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Some of you may know that in a couple of weeks, I'm headed to India on a 'mission' trip. I'm actually going to be a speaker at a Christian leadership conference, but we'll also probably do some witnessing in the slums of Mumbai.

I just received a packet of information about some things to expect, what to pack, etc, etc. In it are instructions about what to tell the officials about the reason for my trip, when asked.

In big bold red letters we are informed not to say that we are going to India for missionary work, or to visit a church or to do any church related activities. We are to tell them that we're tourists.

Apparently, if we say we're there for missions work or church work we'll be detained and questioned.

What do you all think of this? Is it okay to lie in this situation?

When I went to Russia we had the same issue. We were taking food and medicine and school supplies to the schools, orphanages, and hospitals. While delivering these items we also shared the gospel. We were told to tell them we were there for humanitarian purposes and not mention religion. That was not a lie. We were there for humanitarian purposes.

Now if they were to directly ask me if I was also preaching Jesus....I would hope I would say yes, and let the chips fall where they may.

Will you be doing some touring? Will you be taking back souveniers for friends, take pictures and such? If so, you "are" tourists.

 

[jeolmstead]

WHAT???????????????????? GOD told someone to lie? UH, no. God HATES a lying tongue. HE is NOT going to tell someone to do it. There is no lie in what you quoted. I am GOBSMACKED.

Samuel says to God:

If Saul finds out I’m going to anoint one of Jesse’s sons he will kill me

God says to Samuel:

Don’t tell him, tell him you are going there to make a sacrifice.

(It sure sounds like a misrepresentation of facts to me.)




Consider these passages:

2. 1 Kings 22:23
"So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."

4. 2 Chronicles 18:22
"So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."

If you read the whole passage, you see that this was a plan formed in heaven with God Himself running the meeting.

Is this an example of God telling a lie?

Now, maybe we think this doesn’t belong in the scripture. Unfortunately we don’t have the right to prune it out ignore it, or discount it. This is not a ceremonial law we can toss away. This is supposed to be a historical fact recorded in the scripture about an action that God took.


If we have a theology that does not line up with this; we need to reconcile what we believe with what the word says.

We ought to put some thought, time, and study into it.

John O.

 

[LinkH]

I don't see it as lying if you are doing missionary tourism. You are selectively giving them true information, assuming you are touring the country. You aren't arriving on a missionary visa.

I would not say 'I am teaching a leadership conference' either. You may need a business visa for that.

Say as little as you can. Be truthful. Do not lie, but don't divulge any details that will cause trouble.

 

[LinkH]

Samuel says to God:

If Saul finds out I’m going to anoint one of Jesse’s sons he will kill me

God says to Samuel:

Don’t tell him, tell him you are going there to make a sacrifice.

(It sure sounds like a misrepresentation of facts to me.)

Samuel did make a sacrifice. He did not lie. What he said was true. He just did not divulge that he was anointing someone as king.

Consider these passages:

2. 1 Kings 22:23
"So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."

4. 2 Chronicles 18:22
"So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."

If you read the whole passage, you see that this was a plan formed in heaven with God Himself running the meeting.

Is this an example of God telling a lie?

No, God did not lie. He gave permission for a spirit--who did the lying-- to go into the mouths of the 'prophets' of Ahab, prophets that Jehosaphat apparently did not recognize as true prophets of the Lord.

This passage is a bit more difficult, since the man who said these things was a real prophet apparently.

I Kings 20
35 By the word of the LORD one of the sons of the prophets said to his companion, "Strike me with your weapon," but the man refused. 36 So the prophet said, "Because you have not obeyed the LORD, as soon as you leave me a lion will kill you." And after the man went away, a lion found him and killed him.
37 The prophet found another man and said, "Strike me, please." So the man struck him and wounded him. 38 Then the prophet went and stood by the road waiting for the king. He disguised himself with his headband down over his eyes. 39 As the king passed by, the prophet called out to him, "Your servant went into the thick of the battle, and someone came to me with a captive and said, 'Guard this man. If he is missing, it will be your life for his life, or you must pay a talent of silver.' 40 While your servant was busy here and there, the man disappeared."
"That is your sentence," the king of Israel said. "You have pronounced it yourself."
41 Then the prophet quickly removed the headband from his eyes, and the king of Israel recognized him as one of the prophets. 42 He said to the king, "This is what the LORD says: 'You have set free a man I had determined should die. Therefore it is your life for his life, your people for his people.' " 43 Sullen and angry, the king of Israel went to his palace in Samaria.

(NIV) emphasis mine

Then, in Revelation, it is an outright sin to lie.

Revelation 21:8
8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.(NIV)

 

[LinkH]

My post did not go through on this thread before.

I'd say do whatever you do in faith, with a clean conscience. If you have to do something that violates your conscience or disobey the word to join, then don't do it. Like if they want you to swear oaths or lie.

But I wouldn't consider saying I was going there for tourism to be lying. I John calls believers friends, so if you said you were visiting friends, then that isn't a lie either. It is one thing to selectively give important information. It is another to lie.

I would not say I was going to give a leadership seminar, especially if it is not for profit. That sounds like a business visit and some countries require special visas for that.

 

[disciple-ofjesus]

Samuel did make a sacrifice. He did not lie. What he said was true. He just did not divulge that he was anointing someone as king.



No, God did not lie. He gave permission for a spirit--who did the lying-- to go into the mouths of the 'prophets' of Ahab, prophets that Jehosaphat apparently did not recognize as true prophets of the Lord.

This passage is a bit more difficult, since the man who said these things was a real prophet apparently.

I Kings 20
35 By the word of the LORD one of the sons of the prophets said to his companion, "Strike me with your weapon," but the man refused. 36 So the prophet said, "Because you have not obeyed the LORD, as soon as you leave me a lion will kill you." And after the man went away, a lion found him and killed him.
37 The prophet found another man and said, "Strike me, please." So the man struck him and wounded him. 38 Then the prophet went and stood by the road waiting for the king. He disguised himself with his headband down over his eyes. 39 As the king passed by, the prophet called out to him, "Your servant went into the thick of the battle, and someone came to me with a captive and said, 'Guard this man. If he is missing, it will be your life for his life, or you must pay a talent of silver.' 40 While your servant was busy here and there, the man disappeared."
"That is your sentence," the king of Israel said. "You have pronounced it yourself."
41 Then the prophet quickly removed the headband from his eyes, and the king of Israel recognized him as one of the prophets. 42 He said to the king, "This is what the LORD says: 'You have set free a man I had determined should die. Therefore it is your life for his life, your people for his people.' " 43 Sullen and angry, the king of Israel went to his palace in Samaria.

(NIV) emphasis mine

Then, in Revelation, it is an outright sin to lie.

Revelation 21:8
8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.(NIV)

exactly. God does not go against HIS Word. He says He hates a lying tongue. He isn't going to say..OH, go ahead and lie. NO, He gave Samuel what to say. NOT a lie!

 

[LinkH]

disciple,
Did the prophet in the passage I quoted really guard a soldier and lose him?

 

[enoch son]

Samuel did make a sacrifice. He did not lie. What he said was true. He just did not divulge that he was anointing someone as king.



No, God did not lie. He gave permission for a spirit--who did the lying-- to go into the mouths of the 'prophets' of Ahab, prophets that Jehosaphat apparently did not recognize as true prophets of the Lord.

This passage is a bit more difficult, since the man who said these things was a real prophet apparently.

I Kings 20
35 By the word of the LORD one of the sons of the prophets said to his companion, "Strike me with your weapon," but the man refused. 36 So the prophet said, "Because you have not obeyed the LORD, as soon as you leave me a lion will kill you." And after the man went away, a lion found him and killed him.
37 The prophet found another man and said, "Strike me, please." So the man struck him and wounded him. 38 Then the prophet went and stood by the road waiting for the king. He disguised himself with his headband down over his eyes. 39 As the king passed by, the prophet called out to him, "Your servant went into the thick of the battle, and someone came to me with a captive and said, 'Guard this man. If he is missing, it will be your life for his life, or you must pay a talent of silver.' 40 While your servant was busy here and there, the man disappeared."
"That is your sentence," the king of Israel said. "You have pronounced it yourself."
41 Then the prophet quickly removed the headband from his eyes, and the king of Israel recognized him as one of the prophets. 42 He said to the king, "This is what the LORD says: 'You have set free a man I had determined should die. Therefore it is your life for his life, your people for his people.' " 43 Sullen and angry, the king of Israel went to his palace in Samaria.

(NIV) emphasis mine

Then, in Revelation, it is an outright sin to lie.

Revelation 21:8
8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.(NIV)

So what you are saying is the one that send someone to lie is not part of the act of the lie. I think there a missunderstanding on what a lie is. Can a death thing cover in blood lie and God see it?