LXX Investigation

David Ben Yosef

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The following article was written by a King James Only advocate, but I found some of it very intriguing. Especially the portion addressing "The Letter of Aristeas." What do you guys think?

Article origin: What is the Septuagint?

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What is the "Septuagint"?

by David Daniels

If you look in the preface of a modern Bible, you will probably find a reference to the Septuagint, or LXX for short. The translators of all modern Bibles, including the New King James, use the Septuagint along with other texts in translating the Bible. They claim that the Septuagint contains true readings not found in the preserved Hebrew text. Thus they give it great importance. But what is the Septuagint? Here's how the legend goes:


The Septuagint is claimed to have been translated between 285-246 BC during the reign of Ptolemy II Philadelphus of Alexandria, Egypt. His librarian, supposedly Demetrius of Phalerum, persuaded Philadelphus to get a copy of the Hebrew Scriptures. Then the Scriptures (at least Genesis to Deuteronomy) were translated into the Greek language for the Alexandrian Jews. This part of the story comes from early church historian Eusebius (260-339 AD). Scholars then claim that Jesus and His apostles used this Greek Bible instead of the preserved Hebrew text.

The Letter of Aristeas
The whole argument that the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek before the time of Christ rests upon a single document. All other historical evidence supporting the argument either quotes or references this single letter.

In this so-called Letter of Aristeas, the writer presents himself as a close confidant of king Philadelphus. He claims that he persuaded Eleazar, the high priest, to send with him 72 scholars from Jerusalem to Alexandria, Egypt. There they would translate the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek, forming what we now call the Septuagint.

Jewish historian Josephus, Jewish mystic Philo (both first century AD) and others add to the story. Some say the 72 were shut in separate cells and "miraculously" wrote each of their versions word-for-word the same. They say that this proves "divine inspiration" of the entire Septuagint.

Thus, the Septuagint is claimed to exist at the time of Jesus and the apostles, and that they quoted from it instead of the preserved Hebrew text. This story has been passed around for centuries. But is it the truth? Was this Septuagint really written before the earthly ministry of the Lord Jesus and His apostles? Did they quote it? Was it really inspired by God? And if the story is a fake, why make up the story? Is there another reason to get people to use (or believe in) the Septuagint?



The verifiable facts:



The writer of this letter, Aristeas, claims to have been a Greek court official during the time of Philadelphus' reign. He claims to have been sent by Demetrius to request the best scholars of Israel to bring a copy of the Hebrew scriptures to Alexandria to start the Septuagint translation project. He even goes so far as to give names of Septuagint scholars, yet many of the names he gives are from the Maccabean era, some 75 years too late. Many of them are Greek names, definitely not the names of Hebrew scholars. There are many other evidences that this letter is from a different time period, and is thus a fake. The writer is lying about his identity.

The supposed "librarian," Demetrius of Phalerum (ca. 345-283) served in the court of Ptolemy Soter. Demetrius was never the librarian under Philadelphus.

The letter quotes the king telling Demetrius and the translators, when they arrived, how wonderful it was that they came on the anniversary of his "naval victory over Antigonus" (Aristeas 7:14). But the only such recorded Egyptian naval victory occurred many years after Demetrius death, so the letter is a fraud!

The Letter of Aristeas is a hoax that doesn't even fit the time period in which it claims to have been written. And since the other ancient writers merely add to this story, it is clear that the story itself of a pre-Christian Septuagint is a fraud. Even critical textual scholars admit that the letter is a hoax. Yet they persist in quoting the Letter of Aristeas as proof of the existence of the Septuagint before Christ.



New Testament Evidence
Many scholars claim that Christ and his apostles used the Septuagint, preferring it above the preserved Hebrew text found in the temple and synagogues. But if the Greek Septuagint was the Bible Jesus used, he would not have said,


"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." (Matthew 5:18)

Why would Jesus not have said this? Because the jot is a Hebrew letter, and the tittle is a small mark to distinguish between Hebrew letters. If Jesus used the Greek Septuagint, His scriptures would not have contained the jot and tittle. He obviously used the Hebrew scriptures!

In addition, Jesus only mentioned the scripture text in two ways, (1) "The Law and the Prophets" and (2) "The Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms":


"And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me." Luke 24:44

The Hebrews divide their Bible into three parts: the Law, the Prophets and the Writings. Jesus clearly referred to this. The Septuagint had no such division. In fact, it contains Apocryphal books interspersed throughout the Old Testament. The sequence is so hopelessly mixed up that Jesus could not possibly have been referring to it!



Who is pushing the Septuagint?
So why do we still hear the story? Why do people give it a second thought? Are there other reasons why they still try to use the Septuagint to find "original readings" that were supposedly "lost from the Hebrew"?.


Roman Catholics Need It
According to the Roman Catholic Douay Bible:

"…the Septuagint, the Greek translation from the original Hebrew, and which contained all the writings now found in the Douay version, as it is called, was the version used by the Saviour and his Apostles and by the Church from her infancy, and translated into Latin, known under the title of Latin Vulgate, and ever recognized as the true version of the written word of God" —Preface,1914 edition.

So Roman Catholics desperately want the Septuagint to be genuine —even inspired! You see, the so-called Septuagint is where they got the Apocrypha (books that are not inspired and have no place in our Bibles). If the Septuagint goes, then the Apocrypha goes with it!

Ecumenical Textual Critics Need It
The supposed text of the Septuagint is found today only in certain manuscripts. The main ones are: Codex Sinaiticus (Aleph); Codex Vaticanus (B); and Codex Alexandrinus (A). That's right. The Alexandrian manuscripts are the very texts we call the Septuagint!

In his Introduction to The Septuagint with Apocrypha: Greek and English (1851) Sir Lancelot Brenton describes how some critical scholars have attempted to call the Septuagint by its real name, the Alexandrian Text, but the name never stuck. Thus he admits that they are one and the same.

So we have textual critics who believe desperately in the 45 Alexandrian manuscripts (against more than 5,000 copies favoring the Textus Receptus). They use these to translate all modern New Testaments. But these Alexandrian manuscripts also include the Septuagint Old Testament (with the Apocrypha). They have fallen for a trap.

Catholics now argue the following: If you accept the Alexandrian text (which modern scholars use as the basis for all new translations) for your New Testament, then you also have to accept the rest of the Alexandrian text (Septuagint) , which includes the Apocrypha. What we are seeing is the development of an ecumenical Bible, including the Apocrypha. Some versions have already gone this way. For many Protestants, all roads are truly leading to Rome.


We Don't Need It
But do we Christians need the Alexandrian manuscripts? Not at all! For the Old Testament we have the Preserved Words of God in the Hebrew Masoretic text. For the New Testament we have the 5,000-plus manuscripts in Greek, plus the many early translations spread abroad, to witness to the actual words of Christ and His apostles.

So the Septuagint story is a hoax. It was not written before Christ; so it was not used by Jesus or His apostles. It is the only set of manuscripts to include the Apocrypha mixed in with the books of the Bible, so as to justify the Roman Catholic inclusion of them in their Bibles. And it is just those same, perverted Alexandrian codices —the same ones that mess up the New Testament —dressed up in pretty packaging.

Let's stick to our preserved Bible, the King James Bible in English, and leave the Alexandrian perversions alone.

© 2001 by David W. Daniels
 

daq

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It would be unwise to attempt to divorce the bias in the argument from the fact that the arguer is of the "King James only" persuasion. The value of the Septuagint is not in the question of whether it is "inspired" or not but rather in the fact that it is indeed a translation of the Hebrew Scriptures into another language, albeit Greek, as opposed to the more modern English translations. The value is in that by reading and studying the Septuagint one may find critical ways of thinking in how those who translated it into Greek thought about the Hebrew passages they were rendering into Greek. It is more so the thinking which is of the most importance in my opinion. I have read many and more of the same arguments as the above in other places; one of which was a pdf file which it seems I cannot now access, (I probably need to update my own Adobe software) but the bias is clear even among those with PhD's behind their names; and it seems in the end it turns out to be mainly all in support of a greater cause which generally turns out to be the KJV only perspective when speaking of Christian authors and/or shcolars, (it seems Judaism has different reasons for the broader rejection of the Septuagint). Being of the particular mindset of which you are, (and I understand some of where you stand from some discussion with you and reading your various statements) it seems to me it would be a great experience for you to do your own deeper investigation into the Septuagint because you will surely find, upon a deeper inspection, that in many places the Septuagint rather lends support to your view of the Hebrew Scriptures the way I see it, (again from what small amount I do understand concerning your perspective). Here is just one such instance and I suspect also that the following provides some very good reasoning as to why certain modern mainstream Christian scholarship would want to discredit the Septuagint:

Esaias 9:5-6 LXX-Septuagint
9:5 οτι παιδιον εγεννηθη ημιν υιος και εδοθη ημιν ου η αρχη εγενηθη επι του ωμου αυτου και καλειται το ονομα αυτου μεγαλης βουλης αγγελος εγω γαρ αξω ειρηνην επι τους αρχοντας ειρηνην και υγιειαν αυτω
9:6 μεγαλη η αρχη αυτου και της ειρηνης αυτου ουκ εστιν οριον επι τον θρονον δαυιδ και την βασιλειαν αυτου κατορθωσαι αυτην και αντιλαβεσθαι αυτης εν δικαιοσυνη και εν κριματι απο του νυν και εις τον αιωνα χρονον ο ζηλος κυριου σαβαωθ ποιησει ταυτα

Online Greek OT (Septuagint/LXX) UTF8 Bible. Isaiah Chapter 9:1-20.

Isaiah 9:6-7 [Esaias 9:5-6] Brenton Septuagint Translation
6. For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.
7. His government shall be great, and of his peace there is no end: it shall be upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to support it with judgment and with righteousness, from henceforth and forever. The seal [zeal] of the Lord of hosts shall perform this.

Isaiah 9 Brenton Septuagint Translation

Remember also that the "KJV only" crowd believes the King James Version itself to be "inspired". :)
 
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David Ben Yosef

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It would be unwise to attempt to divorce the bias in the argument from the fact that the arguer is of the "King James only" persuasion.
Not really, I find it very easy to dismiss that KJV only garbage.

Remember also that the "KJV only" crowd believes the King James Version itself to be "inspired". :)
I'm aware of that, and they are pretty nuts. The only thing I'm interested in is the dating. The LXX is nowhere near as old as it was reported to be. That is pure fiction (as in fraudulent). Paul's letters are older than the earliest LXX texts. Before anyone refutes that, I suggest they do some more reading up on modern LXX scholarship, and how they arrived at the dating. The New Testament does NOT quote the Septuagint, the Septuagint quotes the New Testament!
 
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daq

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Not really, I find it very easy to dismiss that KJV only garbage.

I'm aware of that, and they are pretty nuts. The only thing I'm interested in is the dating. The LXX is nowhere near as old as it was reported to be. That is pure fiction (as in fraudulent). Paul's letters are older than the earliest LXX texts. Before anyone refutes that, I suggest they do some more reading up on modern LXX scholarship, and how they arrived at the dating. The New Testament does NOT quote the Septuagint, the Septuagint quotes the New Testament!

Actually most seem to be willing to agree that at least the Torah was translated around-about the time period suggested, (somewhere about circa 285-230 BCE) while many of the same will refute the idea that the remainder, (Prophets and Writings) was ever included in the work. So while it is certainly questionable as to whether "the Septuagint" ever even included anything more than the Law of Moses still yet the majority do agree that Torah was indeed translated into Greek. If this be true then what of the following instance which is only found in the Septuagint and nowhere else? Are you suggesting that this was added to the context after it was quoted in Hebrews? I think not because it much more than clarifies the context in which it is written rather than seeming out of place:

Hebrews 1:6
6. And when he brings the prototokos-firstborn, (Yisrael) again into the land, he says, "And let all the angels of God do obeisance unto him."

Deuteronomy 32:40-43 Septuagint
40. For I will lift up my hand to heaven, and swear by my right hand, and I will say, I live for ever.
41. For I will sharpen my sword like lightning, and my hand shall take hold of judgment; and I will render judgment to my enemies, and will recompense them that hate me.
42. I will make my weapons drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh, it shall glut itself with the blood of the wounded, and from the captivity of the heads of their enemies that rule over them.
43. Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God do obeisance unto him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge [atone] the land of his people.


This is immediately before the protokos-firstborn, Yisrael, is brought again-anew back into the Land after the forty years of the wilderness sojourn and the entire sojourn in Egypt. To whom has the arm of the Most High been revealed? This was done at Golgotha when Yeshua was lifted up; for he is the right arm of the Father, who swore in that day that He, (the Father) Lives forever. And to show it He raised up His own prototokos-firstborn, (from the dead) Yeshua the Messiah. But I can see that your mind is already made up concerning the Septuagint so enjoy your thread. :)
 
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pat34lee

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Not really, I find it very easy to dismiss that KJV only garbage.

I'm aware of that, and they are pretty nuts. The only thing I'm interested in is the dating. The LXX is nowhere near as old as it was reported to be. That is pure fiction (as in fraudulent). Paul's letters are older than the earliest LXX texts. Before anyone refutes that, I suggest they do some more reading up on modern LXX scholarship, and how they arrived at the dating. The New Testament does NOT quote the Septuagint, the Septuagint quotes the New Testament!

That argument is just wrong. It is not even debatable. Some of the myths about the LXX may be just that, myths, but we have whole or fragments of every book of the Tanakh in Greek, all written between 50 & 250 BC.
 
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pshun2404

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Well I totally dismiss the KJV only garbage, but also the speculations of Daniels...(David Daniels is a scholar for Jack Chick...ever read his trash?)

The LXX was indeed "a translation" into Greek by pre-Christian HEBREW scholars (Rabbis if you will) and it was first only the Torah, then other Hebrew literature was added...right off the bat you can tell Daniels is biased because he lies...as late as Carthage (397 CE) the RCC (which I do not favor for many other reasons) DID NOT INCLUDE apocryphal books as canonical (therefore at this time they did not consider them inspired which Daniels tries to infer). Also we know from the early writers that Matthew (who wrote the first of the gospels) wrote his gospel in Hebrew (a copy of which in the Hebrew/Aramaic was still extant in the Library of Ceasarea in the early 4th century)...which in his attempt to discredit RCC (which was his "paid for" intent) he jumps forward 500 years...sadly a lot of Jewish people fall for his trash article (because they want to believe stuff like this)

I would think the fact that Josephus and Philo validate such a translation was made should suffice but if one is going to reject the only history that exists then why wouldn't they want to cast a negative shadow on these men as well...

And Paul's letters are in no wise older than the LXX...thats absurd and contrived...

In many studies being done we find in the pre-Christian JEWISH Dead Sea Scrolls that in some places they agree with the LXX and in others indications of an earlier Hebrew Textual tradition that differs from the Masoretic, which was not even completed until the 9th century CE...we have NO evidence to indicate the Masoretic is the truest earliest Hebrew rendition (though perhaps the closest in our possession)...

So though I prefer the pre-JPS Masoretic I do not think any honest objective person (certainly no real scholars) should dismiss the witness of the 1000 year earlier Qumran scrolls OR the LXX (which indeed was a translation from the preserved text at that time)...
 
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Dave-W

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In my basic Judaism class with a Conservative Rabbi (actually it was the first class for his conversion group) he talked about the LXX and that properly ONLY applies to the Torah - the 5 books of Moses - and was contracted by Alexander shortly before his death. He wanted to read it for himself in greek but he died before the 70 scholars he had do the translation were finished. Ptolomy took it on to finish the Tenach and other writings were later added to it.

So that is the Jewish understanding of the LXX. I have even heard some chassidic rabbis discuss that the "stammering lips" of Isaiah 28:11 was talking about the LXX. The rabbis as a whole have been divided on whether it is legit or not.

Messianic Rabbi (and former prez of the UMJC) Russ Resnek taught a class that touched on it during the 1995 UMJC conference. He talked about the Masoretic text and the rabbinic changes in the light of nacent christianity and the various competing Hebrew manuscripts.

Apparently the proto-Septuagint was one of the "most messianic" while the proto-Masoretic was one of the least; and they then made it even less messianic. When they were done they rounded up and destroyed all the other manuscripts.
 
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CherubRam

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The Septuagint is good for making a comparison with the Masoretic. What we do know as a matter of fact, is that the Hellenistic Jews were engaged in corrupting the Hebrew scriptures. This is evident when comparing some Hebrew scriptures side by side. And by the way, it was the Hellenistic Jews who help develop Jewish mysticism which led to Kabbalah.
 
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yonah_mishael

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"Hellenistic Jews," "Hellenistic Jews," "Hellenistic Jews." Conspiracy, puffy words, more conspiracy. "Hellenistic Jews." Yahwah. And yet, Hellenistic Jews. Really. You should know. Hellenistic Jews.

We know. Angels don't exist. You're the archangel Michael. Conspiracy. Magic. Hellenistic Jews.

:doh:
 
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CherubRam

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"Hellenistic Jews," "Hellenistic Jews," "Hellenistic Jews." Conspiracy, puffy words, more conspiracy. "Hellenistic Jews." Yahwah. And yet, Hellenistic Jews. Really. You should know. Hellenistic Jews.

We know. Angels don't exist. You're the archangel Michael. Conspiracy. Magic. Hellenistic Jews.

:doh:
Do not let your emotions run away with you!
 
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The Septuagint is good for making a comparison with the Masoretic. What we do know as a matter of fact, is that the Hellenistic Jews were engaged in corrupting the Hebrew scriptures. This is evident when comparing some Hebrew scriptures side by side. And by the way, it was the Hellenistic Jews who help develop Jewish mysticism which led to Kabbalah.

"Hellenistic Jews," "Hellenistic Jews," "Hellenistic Jews." Conspiracy, puffy words, more conspiracy. "Hellenistic Jews." Yahwah. And yet, Hellenistic Jews. Really. You should know. Hellenistic Jews.

We know. Angels don't exist. You're the archangel Michael. Conspiracy. Magic. Hellenistic Jews.

:doh:

While you are here Yonah I have a question which I think pertains to this "Hellenism" string of thought which CherubRam has so kindly brought up. :D

It concerns my intial post in this this thread and specifically the passage which I had quoted but rather this time from the Hebrew:

It would be unwise to attempt to divorce the bias in the argument from the fact that the arguer is of the "King James only" persuasion. The value of the Septuagint is not in the question of whether it is "inspired" or not but rather in the fact that it is indeed a translation of the Hebrew Scriptures into another language, albeit Greek, as opposed to the more modern English translations. The value is in that by reading and studying the Septuagint one may find critical ways of thinking in how those who translated it into Greek thought about the Hebrew passages they were rendering into Greek. It is more so the thinking which is of the most importance in my opinion. I have read many and more of the same arguments as the above in other places; one of which was a pdf file which it seems I cannot now access, (I probably need to update my own Adobe software) but the bias is clear even among those with PhD's behind their names; and it seems in the end it turns out to be mainly all in support of a greater cause which generally turns out to be the KJV only perspective when speaking of Christian authors and/or shcolars, (it seems Judaism has different reasons for the broader rejection of the Septuagint). Being of the particular mindset of which you are, (and I understand some of where you stand from some discussion with you and reading your various statements) it seems to me it would be a great experience for you to do your own deeper investigation into the Septuagint because you will surely find, upon a deeper inspection, that in many places the Septuagint rather lends support to your view of the Hebrew Scriptures the way I see it, (again from what small amount I do understand concerning your perspective). Here is just one such instance and I suspect also that the following provides some very good reasoning as to why certain modern mainstream Christian scholarship would want to discredit the Septuagint:

Esaias 9:5-6 LXX-Septuagint
9:5 οτι παιδιον εγεννηθη ημιν υιος και εδοθη ημιν ου η αρχη εγενηθη επι του ωμου αυτου και καλειται το ονομα αυτου μεγαλης βουλης αγγελος εγω γαρ αξω ειρηνην επι τους αρχοντας ειρηνην και υγιειαν αυτω
9:6 μεγαλη η αρχη αυτου και της ειρηνης αυτου ουκ εστιν οριον επι τον θρονον δαυιδ και την βασιλειαν αυτου κατορθωσαι αυτην και αντιλαβεσθαι αυτης εν δικαιοσυνη και εν κριματι απο του νυν και εις τον αιωνα χρονον ο ζηλος κυριου σαβαωθ ποιησει ταυτα

Online Greek OT (Septuagint/LXX) UTF8 Bible. Isaiah Chapter 9:1-20.

Isaiah 9:6-7 [Esaias 9:5-6] Brenton Septuagint Translation
6. For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.
7. His government shall be great, and of his peace there is no end: it shall be upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to support it with judgment and with righteousness, from henceforth and forever. The seal [zeal] of the Lord of hosts shall perform this.

Isaiah 9 Brenton Septuagint Translation

Remember also that the "KJV only" crowd believes the King James Version itself to be "inspired". :)

The question is this when you have the time: does the following text look as if it may possibly have been formed out of a more Greek thinking mind? I mean the way the sentence is formed in Hebrew seems to be put together in an awkward manner as if the person who penned it was first and foremost a Greek language speaker. Also does the word in red (וַיִּקְרָ֨א) imply "he" (calls) as the Young's translations shows? For if this is the case then it seems the structure of the verse is not written in the more traditional fashion, (or am I wrong and way off base here? :)).

Isaiah 9:6 YLT (Young's Literal Bible Translation)
6. For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.


Note also the CJB rendering which seems to be a more correct rendering; although "he" is not rendered it seems that because it is in the Hebrew text it changes the outcome and form of the rendering considerably:

Isaiah 9:5 CJB (Complete Jewish Bible)
5. For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."

Yeshayahu - Chapter 9 - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

See what I mean? The CJB implies "[He] called his name" meaning the Father called the name of this child/son, "Sar Shalom" and thus appears to alter the entire structure of what is written, (and besides, Yeshua never called himself any of these things). This to me seems to be more structured in a Greek way of writing even though it is written in Hebrew:

Westminster Leningrad Codex
כִּי־יֶ֣לֶד יֻלַּד־לָ֗נוּ בֵּ֚ן נִתַּן־לָ֔נוּ וַתְּהִ֥י הַמִּשְׂרָ֖ה עַל־שִׁכְמֹ֑ו וַיִּקְרָ֨א שְׁמֹ֜ו פֶּ֠לֶא יֹועֵץ֙ אֵ֣ל גִּבֹּ֔ור אֲבִיעַ֖ד שַׂר־שָׁלֹֽום׃
Isaiah 9:6 Hebrew Text Analysis

Your thoughts please? :)
 
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yonah_mishael

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The Hebrew expression “to call someone’s name” (לקרוא שמו) means “to give someone the name.” I think the (so-called) Septuagint may be on to something. The text of the (so-called) LXX reads thus in Rahlfs:

καὶ καλεῖται τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Μεγάλης βουλῆς ἄγγελος…​

It’s essentially saying that his name will be called A Messenger of Great Counsel. That’s not a terrible way of looking at the text. The Hebrew structure simply says “and he calls/called his name…,” probably meaning that his father will give him the name. In modern Hebrew, we just say “they call him” or “they will call him” (which would be translated into the Bible’s verbal structure as וקראו לו). It’s interesting that the Hebrew is in the past tense (vav-consecutive) in Isaiah 9, which adds to the claim that this is a child that had already been born at the time of the writing of this passage.

The continuation of the Greek text in the (so-called) Septuagint is not part of the name, while in Hebrew it is. I would say that Hebrew gives the child in question a huge name, but there is good reason not to take this passage as a reference to the Messiah.
 
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daq

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The Hebrew expression “to call someone’s name” (לקרוא שמו) means “to give someone the name.” I think the (so-called) Septuagint may be on to something. The text of the (so-called) LXX reads thus in Rahlfs:
καὶ καλεῖται τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Μεγάλης βουλῆς ἄγγελος…​
It’s essentially saying that his name will be called A Messenger of Great Counsel. That’s not a terrible way of looking at the text. The Hebrew structure simply says “and he calls/called his name…,” probably meaning that his father will give him the name. In modern Hebrew, we just say “they call him” or “they will call him” (which would be translated into the Bible’s verbal structure as וקראו לו). It’s interesting that the Hebrew is in the past tense (vav-consecutive) in Isaiah 9, which adds to the claim that this is a child that had already been born at the time of the writing of this passage.

The continuation of the Greek text in the (so-called) Septuagint is not part of the name, while in Hebrew it is. I would say that Hebrew gives the child in question a huge name, but there is good reason not to take this passage as a reference to the Messiah.

Muchas gracias amigo! :)
 
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yonah_mishael

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Look up "THe Hebrew Word Shem" and let me know what some of you think about this article? Here is the link...

The Hebrew Word SHEM

Paul

When you ask what I think about the article, are you expecting a full critique?

If you’re talking about the form of the article, I would say: (1) the font is atrocious; (2) the failure to include actual Hebrew letters is odd; (3) the claim that &#1513;&#1501; shem should sound “exactly like our English word ‘shame’” is false; and, (4) it would have been sensible to write in some way other than in an ordered list (<ol>). It is very unattractive and looks unprofessional

If you’re talking a critique of the article’s content, that would take a bit longer. It’s clearly written for people who don’t know Hebrew, and for that reason there is a sense of “talking down” to the reader and oversimplification. Because of the way that the author put the page together, it is sloppy and unclear when he is quoting a verse (he gives nearly no verse references, even when he’s making a quotation). I don’t think the charge of laziness can be laid at the feet of those who translated the KJV. They were hardly lazy men, so it seems absurd that he has stated that the use of “name” as a standard translational equivalent of shem is simply lazy. In fact, the word “name” is more flexible than this author is letting on. Look at the following sentence:

He’s developed quite a name for himself.

In this sentence, it’s clear that “name” means “reputation.” That’s just like number two in his ordered list; thus, using “name” to translate this concept is not outside of the word’s use in English. That is, unless you would not grant that the sentence just given was grammatical, standard and clear. If you would protest to the sentence above, then you would have a leg on which to stand when protesting against the word shem being translated as “name” in such situations in the Bible.

It seems strange that he would say that there is a play on the Hebrew word shem in the Revelation, which is written in Greek and uses the word &#8004;&#957;&#959;&#956;&#945; ónoma. How can there be a play on a Hebrew word in this Greek text?

I also think it’s clear that I would not agree with him that the Messiah was given the name “wonderful counselor, mighty God, everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” I think that much should be clear enough.

I don’t understand his point in number five, but it seems odd to say that the concept of God knowing someone “by name” is a bad translation. To say that the king knows someone by name is to say that he has taken notice of him, that he recognizes him and will not confuse him with others. To say that God knows someone by name should come as a huge compliment, as even the NT states: “Now that you know God, or rather are known by God…” (Gal. 4.9). It is significant to say that someone is known by God – that God, who is transcendent and above all creation, should take notice of us individually, to know our names, to know about us. That’s flattering – and I don’t get what the author’s point is in saying that it’s nearly blasphemous to translate it this way.

Finally, I don’t think that calling on God’s name is an idiom. It simply means crying out to him by name. Why would that be an idiom and not the basic meaning of the words in a normal string?

To be succinct, I don’t like the article either in its form or in terms of its content.

Regards,
YM
 
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David Ben Yosef

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That argument is just wrong. It is not even debatable. Some of the myths about the LXX may be just that, myths, but we have whole or fragments of every book of the Tanakh in Greek, all written between 50 & 250 BC.
That is simply not true.

Every LXX manuscript cited in the Septuagint Concordance was written 200 years after the completion of the New Testament. They are as follows:"

A- "Alexandrinus:" written more than 300 years after the completion of the New Testament. It omits Genesis 14:14-17; 15:1-6, 16-19, 16:6-10, Leviticus 6:19-23, 1 Samuel 12:17-14:9, 1 Kings 3-6 and Psalms 69:19-79:10.

Aleph-"Sinaiticus:" written more than 200 years after the completion of the New Testament. It omits Genesis 23:19-24:46, Numbers 5:27-7:20, 1 Chronicles 9:27-19:17, all of Exodus, Joshua, 1 and 2 Samuel, 1 and 2 Kings, Hosea, Amos, Micah, Ezekiel, Daniel and Judges. It contains New Testament Apocrypha.

C- "Codes Ephraemi:" written more than 300 years after the completion of the New Testament. It omits Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, 1 and 2 Samuel, 1 and 2 Kings and all of the major and minor prophets!

B -"Vaticanus:" It omits all off Genesis 1:1 - 46:28, all of Psalms 105:26-137:6, and parts of 1 Samuel, I Kings and Nehemiah. It contains the Apocrpha books of the Old Testament.


"Those interested in further damaging evidence will observe that every papyrus manuscript found with any part of the Old Testament in it was written after the resurrection, with the exception of one scrap containing less than six chapters of Deuteronomy on it.


The "Septuagint" papyri (we have listed all 23 of them with all that they contain and the dates they were written in The Christian's Handbook of Manuscript Evidence pp.48-51, published in 1970) were all written within 60 to 500 years after John finished writing the Book of Revelation."

"The mythological LXX or Septuagint is the most persistent spook to haunt orthodox Christianity since the myth that Christ was born in a cave. The theory is based on abstract speculation of the wildest sort without one piece of reliable documented evidence of ANY kind that there was ever on this earth one single copy of an OLD Testament in GREEK before the heading up of the school at Alexandria by Origen, one hundred years after the entire New Testament was complete, yet to this day there exists on every campus of every fundamental school in the United States the nebulous ghost of this non-existent spook."
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The above was taken from: The Septuagint
 
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David Ben Yosef

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I have read many and more of the same arguments as the above in other places; one of which was a pdf file which it seems I cannot now access...
I have a copy of that. Try this link: The Septuagint: A Critical Analysis.

I'm going back through that book now. I'll be making up some bookmarks for it to make navigation much easier. ;)
 
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pat34lee

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The oldest manuscripts of the Septuagint include 2nd century BC fragments of Leviticus and Deuteronomy (Rahlfs nos. 801, 819, and 957), and 1st century BC fragments of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, and the Minor Prophets (Rahlfs nos. 802, 803, 805, 848, 942, and 943).
Septuagint manuscripts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Papyrus Rylands 458 is a copy of the Pentateuch in a Greek version of the Hebrew Bible known as the Septuagint. It is a papyrus manuscript in roll form. The manuscript has been assigned palaeographically to the 2nd century BC and it is the oldest known manuscript of the Greek Bible. The manuscript has survived in very fragmentary condition.

Papyrus Fouad 266 is a copy of the Pentateuch in the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible known as the Septuagint. It is a papyrus manuscript in scroll form. The manuscript has been assigned palaeographically to the 1st century BC. The manuscript has survived in a fragmentary condition.
 
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