Is Yeshua your Lord and Savior?


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1John2:4

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You mentioned a problem with celebrating other holidays and then cite this in defense of that position. It is true that in Jesus' day a number of Rabbis kept traditions that they claimed came directly from God and are invoked as such (like Yadayim, which has established purity doctrine behind it which has no basis in the text of the Hebrew Bible).

However, how are celebrating additional holidays "doctrine" in this sense? Christmas, Easter, and the like are not claimed to be handed down by God, they aren't held to be commandments, nor do they seek to establish doctrine of any kind. I fear that there has been an equivocation or other confusion of principles.

Steve- thanks for your reply- If we are celebrating worldly holidays to worship God then yes I would consider that doctrine, why would you not? They are forsaking Passover which is commanded not only by God but by Yeshua He said to do in remembrance of me, and trading it in for the spring fertility festival. Taking the Shabbat which was written by Gods own finger to keep holy and replacing it with a day called the Lords day that is not even biblical. What happened to Nadab and Abihu the sons of Aaron when they brought strange fire before the Lord to worship Him? Was he pleased? What happened to the house of Israel when they followed Jeroboam's lead and worshiped contrary to Gods word. Setting up golden calves at Bethel so they would not have to do what was commanded and go to Jerusalem, changing the Passover to another date, allowing all types of people to become Kohanim that were not from Levi. They were deceived and lead into bondage, so are we if we worship God the way we think we should worship Him and not the way He wants to be worshiped. He has outlined in Leviticus 23 what days we are to keep, Christmas & Easter, they are not even in the Bible. So yes- I would consider this doctrine.

Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, For this is man’s all.
 
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SteveCaruso

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I would consider this doctrine.

Where you may "consider" it doctrine, the general understanding of what a doctrine *is* requires a bit more articulation.

In my example that I gave with Yadayim, the invocation of washing one's hands is "Blessed are you Lord God King of the Universe who gave us the Commandment to wash the hands." That establishes a strong doctrine, a belief that God has commanded this practice in certain contexts and that it must be adhered to in those contexts. Where do we see this sort of thing pertaining to Christmas, for example? Christmas is not a doctrine.

(And I am not interested in re-hashing the established doctrine of Acts 15, I simply want a better understanding why you would invoke Matthew 15 where Jesus was making a specific point about theological doctrines where your definition of "doctrine" does not include things that generally fall under that banner. :) )
 
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ToBeLoved

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Steve- thanks for your reply- If we are celebrating worldly holidays to worship God then yes I would consider that doctrine, why would you not? They are forsaking Passover which is commanded not only by God but by Yeshua He said to do in remembrance of me, and trading it in for the spring fertility festival. Taking the Shabbat which was written by Gods own finger to keep holy and replacing it with a day called the Lords day that is not even biblical. What happened to Nadab and Abihu the sons of Aaron when they brought strange fire before the Lord to worship Him? Was he pleased? What happened to the house of Israel when they followed Jeroboam's lead and worshiped contrary to Gods word. Setting up golden calves at Bethel so they would not have to do what was commanded and go to Jerusalem, changing the Passover to another date, allowing all types of people to become Kohanim that were not from Levi. They were deceived and lead into bondage, so are we if we worship God the way we think we should worship Him and not the way He wants to be worshiped. He has outlined in Leviticus 23 what days we are to keep, Christmas & Easter, they are not even in the Bible. So yes- I would consider this doctrine.

Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, For this is man’s all.
You are confusing covenants friend.

What was the last passover celebration? The Last Supper.

What did Jesus establish at the Last Supper? He is the Lamb of God. Not a lamb as in the animal, but THE LAMB OF GOD.

What you do not understand is that Jesus brought in an entirely New Covenant. A new High Priest, a New Covenant, a new law. The Old Covenant has passed away. Jesus is the reason for the entire Old COvenant. Jesus is the fulfillment of the Old Covenant. It has been fulfilled, now we move on under our High Priest. Jesus Christ.

That is the New Covenant. Jesus Christ.
 
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1John2:4

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Where you may "consider" it doctrine, the general understanding of what a doctrine *is* requires a bit more articulation.

In my example that I gave with Yadayim, the invocation of washing one's hands is "Blessed are you Lord God King of the Universe who gave us the Commandment to wash the hands." That establishes a strong doctrine, a belief that God has commanded this practice in certain contexts and that it must be adhered to in those contexts. Where do we see this sort of thing pertaining to Christmas, for example? Christmas is not a doctrine.

(And I am not interested in re-hashing the established doctrine of Acts 15, I simply want a better understanding why you would invoke Matthew 15 where Jesus was making a specific point about theological doctrines where your definition of "doctrine" does not include things that generally fall under that banner. :) )

Doctrine (from Latin: doctrina) is a codification of beliefs or a body of teachings or instructions, taught principles or positions, as the essence of teachings in a given branch of knowledge or belief system. The Greek analogue is the etymology of catechism.[1]

Often doctrine specifically suggests a body of religious principles as it is promulgated by a church, but not necessarily; doctrine is also used to refer to a principle of law, in the common law traditions, established through a history of past decisions, such as the doctrine of self-defense, or the principle of fair use, or the more narrowly applicable first-sale doctrine. In some organizations, doctrine is simply defined as "that which is taught", in other words the basis for institutional teaching of its personnel internal ways of doing business.
Full Definition of doctrine
  1. 1 archaic : teaching, instruction

  2. 2 a : something that is taughtb : a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief : dogmac : a principle of law established through past decisionsd : a statement of fundamental government policy especially in international relationse : a military principle or set of strategies
The point He is trying to make has nothing to do with unwashed hands. See for yourself :)

15 Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, 2 “Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”

3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death. 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: (Breaking commandment 5, by keeping Sunday instead of Shabbat you are breaking #4)

8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.

10 When He had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear and understand: 11 Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.”

12 Then His disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”

13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. 14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”

15 Then Peter answered and said to Him, “Explain this parable to us.”

16 So Jesus said, “Are you also still without understanding? 17 Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? 18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. 20 These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.”

I am not sure what Acts 15 has to do with this discussion.
 
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SteveCaruso

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This is a very nice dictionary definition, and that portion of Matthew is precisely what I am referring to.

Let's then apply this to Christmas. Christmas and other modern Christian holidays are not doctrines.

Acts 15 has to do with the so-called Council of Jerusalem where the issue and doctrines of Gentile observance were settled.
 
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1John2:4

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This is a very nice dictionary definition, and that portion of Matthew is precisely what I am referring to.

Let's then apply this to Christmas. Christmas and other modern Christian holidays are not doctrines.

Acts 15 has to do with the so-called Council of Jerusalem where the issue and doctrines of Gentile observance were settled.

Thanks for the compliment, got to love the internet for these types of things. What is your definition of doctrine? Keeping worldly holidays, going to church on Christmas and sunrise service on Easter are those not doctrines according to the dictionary definition. Are they not a belief system, a tradition are they not taught in the churches, are folks not instructed to attend and worship?

Christmas = Doctrine (from Latin: doctrina) is a codification of beliefs or a body of teachings or instructions, taught principles or positions, as the essence of teachings in a given branch of knowledge or belief system. The Greek analogue is the etymology of catechism.[1] looks like a duck

Easter actually has its own decree, it defiantly looks like a duck and quacks like a duck
First Council of Nicaea in 325

Main article: First Council of Nicaea § Separation of Easter computation from Jewish calendar
The First Council of Nicaea (A.D. 325) declared that Easter was always to be held on a Sunday, and was not to coincide with a particular phase of the moon, which might occur on any day of the week. However, a new dispute arose as to the determination of the Sunday itself, since Sundays can occur on any date of the month. Shortly before the Nicean Council, in 314, the Provincial Council of Arles in Gaul had maintained that the Lord's Pasch should be observed on the same day throughout the world and that each year the Bishop of Rome should send out letters setting the date of Easter.[2]

The Council of Nicaea ruled that all churches should follow a single rule for Easter, which should be computed independently of the Jewish calendar, as at Alexandria. However, it did not make any explicit ruling about the details of the computation, and it was several decades before the Alexandrine computations stabilized into their final form, and several centuries beyond that before they became normative throughout Christendom.

How about doing away with God's holy Shabbat and keeping Sunday, is that doctrine?

You are probably right, we should not go down this road, not on this thread anyway, I am positively certain we will not agree on Acts 15 :). I am labeled Messianic not Christian so according to the rules I don't think I can set up a thread on general theology. I would love to discuss Acts 15 with you if you would like to set up a thread and send me a link. I am pretty slow at work right now and would love a good discussion about the Word with a fellow believer.
Thanks again for all of your replies, and bearing with my terrible grammar :)
 
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1John2:4

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You are confusing covenants friend.

What was the last passover celebration? The Last Supper.

What did Jesus establish at the Last Supper? He is the Lamb of God. Not a lamb as in the animal, but THE LAMB OF GOD.

What you do not understand is that Jesus brought in an entirely New Covenant. A new High Priest, a New Covenant, a new law. The Old Covenant has passed away. Jesus is the reason for the entire Old COvenant. Jesus is the fulfillment of the Old Covenant. It has been fulfilled, now we move on under our High Priest. Jesus Christ.

That is the New Covenant. Jesus Christ.
I absolutely agree with you, with everything you posted. He is the lamb Passover lamb and He said do this in remembrance of me, so why do most Christians keep Easter? You are right, a new covenant where His law is written on our hearts. Not just parts of his law, right?
 
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ToBeLoved

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I absolutely agree with you, with everything you posted. He is the lamb Passover lamb and He said do this in remembrance of me, so why do most Christians keep Easter? You are right, a new covenant where His law is written on our hearts. Not just parts of his law, right?
You do not understand passover then or what Jesus was doing and did do in the Last Supper.

Passover is the former. Lamb's blood on the door post's in Exodus so that the Angel of death would pass over the doors of the Israelite's when that angel came to kill the first born of Egypt in the final plague that Moses gave Pharoah.

So you think that celebrating that event is more important than celebrating the LAMB OF GOD? Jesus Christ?

Jesus said "It is MY BODY and MY BLOOD, do this in rememberence of ME".

Ownership changed my friend. The Passover was UNTIL CHRIST. Christ came, new Covenant, New Body, New Blood, Savior.

Passover isn't even celebrated by a New Covenant people. Why would we celebrate a lamb being slain, a real lamb? You have God Himself who died for your sins and you want to celebrate a former temporary animal slain?

Who died for your sins? That lamb and it's blood in Exodus or Jesus Christ the King of King and Lord of Lords?

You are a New Covenant person. The Old Covenant has passed away. The entire Old Testament looked forward to the Messiah that you chuck in the corner to celebrate a plague for Pharoah?
 
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1John2:4

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You do not understand passover then or what Jesus was doing and did do in the Last Supper.

Passover is the former. Lamb's blood on the door post's in Exodus so that the Angel of death would pass over the doors of the Israelite's when that angel came to kill the first born of Egypt in the final plague that Moses gave Pharoah.

So you think that celebrating that event is more important than celebrating the LAMB OF GOD? Jesus Christ?

Jesus said "It is MY BODY and MY BLOOD, do this in rememberence of ME".

Ownership changed my friend. The Passover was UNTIL CHRIST. Christ came, new Covenant, New Body, New Blood, Savior.

Passover isn't even celebrated by a New Covenant people. Why would we celebrate a lamb being slain, a real lamb? You have God Himself who died for your sins and you want to celebrate a former temporary animal slain?

Who died for your sins? That lamb and it's blood in Exodus or Jesus Christ the King of King and Lord of Lords?

You are a New Covenant person. The Old Covenant has passed away. The entire Old Testament looked forward to the Messiah that you chuck in the corner to celebrate a plague for Pharoah?

I guess I don't get it. Are you saying because He came we no longer keep the Passover even if it honors Him?

Luke 22:19 And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” this is what is done at a Passover but now He is the reality but I believe we still keep the feast to honor Him. That is not chucking Him in the corner. Do you keep Easter? Why?

Did Paul not also instruct us to keep the feast?

1 Corrinthians 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

What about the feasts that will not be fulfilled until His second coming?
 
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