Lordship Salvation

[daughterofthemosthigh7]

That's what happens as He works in your heart. Some sins that were an issue are a small issue now. We are always growing and becoming more like Christ. The Holy Spirit does this and it is sanctification.

You have a good basic knowledge of God. He teaches and we learn.

Amen! and thanks

 

[Soyeong]

Soyeong: I hear what you are saying-- I don't doubt that I am truly saved for one moment and have had true conversion and am new creation in Him and am Holy Spirit filled and yes indeed not by works but on other hand faith without works is dead but that's not what salvation is based on which becomes confusing but I do get it-- anyway, part I'm not getting is that you said we are "trained" not to sin?! I don't know about you but that's my nature, I'm fallen (but I also at same time try to avoid walking in flesh too) I fall short-- but as new creation and with help of Holy Spirit convicting me-- helping me and also wanting to please God in obedience to Him-- oh i don't know what I'm saying at this point but I do get it-- I understand and He knows it too! Things, well sins I used to struggle with in beginning no longer issue-- devil can't even bother me with them anymore-- but yeah of course I still stumble, every day, multiple times in fact-- but thank you Jesus for making a way-- and that I'm covered...

The issue is that there are past, present, and future aspects of salvation, redemption, forgiveness, sanctification, and justification:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/PASTPRES.htm

For example, Ephesians 2:8 says that we have been saved in the past tense, Philippians 2:12 says to work out our salvation in the present tense, and Romans 5:9-10 says that we will be saved in the future tense. So we have been saved from the penalty of sin, we are being saved from continuing to sin, and we will be saved from God's wrath on the day of the Lord, which means that our salvation is all encompassing. So when people talk about salvation as purely a past event, then talking about the need to do good works becomes confusing because we do not need to do anything to earn what Jesus paid on our behalf. However, the need to do good works as part of what our salvation involves in the present tense makes a lot more sense because we have been saved in the past for the purpose of doing good works in the present.

 

[daughterofthemosthigh7]

The issue is that there are past, present, and future aspects of salvation, redemption, forgiveness, sanctification, and justification:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/PASTPRES.htm

For example, Ephesians 2:8 says that we have been saved in the past tense, Philippians 2:12 says to work out our salvation in the present tense, and Romans 5:9-10 says that we will be saved in the future tense. So we have been saved from the penalty of sin, we are being saved from continuing to sin, and we will be saved from God's wrath on the day of the Lord, which means that our salvation is all encompassing. So when people talk about salvation as purely a past event, then talking about the need to do good works becomes confusing because we do not need to do anything to earn what Jesus paid on our behalf. However, the need to do good works as part of what our salvation involves in the present tense makes a lot more sense because we have been saved in the past for the purpose of doing good works in the present.

Thankyou for that explanation-- and yes indeed...

 

[IAMANOBODY2015]

Shalom,

You want Yeshua as your savior, but not as your Lord and master, you belong to a faith that saves no one. If Yeshua is not your Lord, He is not your Savior.

There are plenty of beings that believe in Yeshua, back in the days when He walked the Earth. Yet they were not saved. They are plenty of demons, fallen angles, and people that know these things, but it doesn't help them. A reading of revelation reveals that the end times tribulation will cause everyone in the word to believe in Yeshua. Look at the sixth seal, it was said: "they will hide themselves in the rocks and in the caves on the Earth to hide from the face of the lamb, the one who sits on a throne." That's everyone in the whole world, they will be hiding, they will try to flee from the wrath of Yeshua, and everyone will know it's Yeshua and there will be no question. Yet how many people at that time will not have the mark of the beast? How many people at that time will reject and curse God?

Believing in Yeshua the Messiah, who He is, that He is in heaven, and believing in the gospel alone without Jesus being your Lord and Master is not a faith that saves! That is a gospel of sin, a gospel of self and a gospel of idolatry. It is a gospel that tells that you can live however you want and come to God your own way under your own terms, and serve your own way.

You believe that certain things are true, because you believe in your own mind, without committing yourself to Him as your Lord and Master. Such a faith is a dead faith. There's no salvation in such faith. Yeshua is either your all, your everything or he is nothing. Period. Black or white, there is no middle ground, there's no grey area. All or nothing. It's either everything or your prayer is a waste of breath and time.

The reason I still have sin in my life is because I still don't fear God. I know of his Wrath and his judgment but every time I am tempted I forget that there's going to be consequences for sin.

I need to start practicing the fear of God. I need to remind myself of his wrath and judgement. And then I will have no problem obeying his son Jesus.

 

[DoubtfulSalvation]

This thread is the very reason why I'm probably not even christian. Bible isn't clear enough on the most important topic of all and look at all of you arguing (well, not all). Some of the most "holy" on here are being down right rude and insulting in the most underhandedly condescending way. Your going to hell for believing this way and I'm going to hell for believing that way, but we all say we believe in Jesus. Maybe, just maybe, we will all go to hell? That would be nice, I think. Then we can enjoy all being wrong together in a fiery pit created by YHWH for just for us (oh and demons and things). Well, I applaud those who can speak without having to degrade others. So, to you I say bravo and good work. Now, everyone just ignore this post and continue talking about how everyone else is hell bound. Thank you.

 

[chandraclaws]

No, I am unable to "like" also. They may have upgraded some software or something.

It's the hand symbol in the lower right corner. I'm not fond of the changes but...

 

[ViaCrucis]

Lordship salvation is basically just another form of the Opinio Legis.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ToBeLoved]

The reason I still have sin in my life is because I still don't fear God. I know of his Wrath and his judgment but every time I am tempted I forget that there's going to be consequences for sin.

I need to start practicing the fear of God. I need to remind myself of his wrath and judgement. And then I will have no problem obeying his son Jesus.

God's Word says that perfect love casts out all fear. We are not to live in fear.

Pray about your sin issues. Let God know and talk to Him. He wants to listen and He wants to help.

 

[IAMANOBODY2015]

God's Word says that perfect love casts out all fear. We are not to live in fear.

Pray about your sin issues. Let God know and talk to Him. He wants to listen and He wants to help.

This is good advice. Thank you

 

[Job8]

Lordship salvation = heresy, false doctrine.

If it is properly understood, it is sound Bible doctrine. Some people deliberately misunderstand what it means. So here is a good summary:
http://www.gotquestions.org/lordship-salvation.html

BTW, you will note that most Christians (and even preachers) today speak of the Lord Jesus Christ as only "Jesus" or "Jesus Christ". But the true and correct designation is "Lord Jesus Christ". Perhaps this is why Easy Believism has taken hold of many churches.

 

[dqhall]

God gives words of salvation to the righteous and the wicked.

Acts 12:20 Now he (Herod) was highly displeased with them of Tyre and Sidon: and they came with one accord to him, and, having made Blastus the king's chamberlain their friend, they asked for peace, because their country was fed from the king's country. 21 And upon a set day Herod arrayed himself in royal apparel, and sat on the throne, and made an oration unto them. 22 And the people shouted,'saying , The voice of a god, and not of a man. 23 And immediately an angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.

Whether you imagine you are all in or all out with Yeshua, you are obligated to give God credit when he helps you. Praise the Lord.

 

[DingDing]

"Believe" in Greek (the new testament language) means to "put trust in, entrust, commit, dedicate"

Agreed. And in the context of the Sermon on the Mount which was cited, to hear and not do is to not believe in a saving sense. (Of course, one could believe what Jesus said, but just decide to live for the here-and-now anyway.)

 

[Ron Coates]

Abraham believed by obeying God.
Only after his faith was proven by works was it credited to him as righteousness

But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. James 2:18 - I stressed faith to show that it comes first. Living, active faith always produces deeds. Deeds without faith also misses the target. This can be legalism. But for me, God gave me a revelation of His love for me. I responded by loving Him back. I did this by helping others anyway I could. Peace.

 

[DingDing]

This thread is the very reason why I'm probably not even christian. Bible isn't clear enough on the most important topic of all ...

So what is this topic that you say is the most important and that the bible isn't clear on? (And remember to not confuse certain people's understanding (or lack thereof) with the bible itself.)

 

[faroukfarouk]

This is good advice. Thank you

Hi; Psalm 111 is a great passage about the reverential fear of the Lord.

 

[1John2:4]

God does not need faith to be made real. God is Omniscient. God knows the past, present and future all at the same time. There is nothing that God does not know.

“Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please” (Isaiah 46:9-10).

“Who can fathom the Spirit of the LORD, or instruct the LORD as his counselor? Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge, or showed him the path of understanding?” (Isaiah 40:13-14).

“Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD” (Psalm 139:4).

“O LORD, you have searched me and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways” (Psalm 139:1-3).

“My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. How precious to me are your thoughts, God! How vast is the sum of them! Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand—when I awake, I am still with you” (Psalm 139:15-16).

“Can anyone teach knowledge to God, since he judges even the highest?” (Job 21:22).

“He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name. Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit” (Psalm 147:4-5).

“And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever” (1 Chronicles 28:9).

“Do you know how the clouds hang poised, those wonders of him who has perfect knowledge?” (Job 37:16).

“From heaven the LORD looks down and sees all mankind; from his dwelling place he watches all who live on earth—he who forms the hearts of all, who considers everything they do” (Psalm 33:13-15).
“Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!” (Romans 11:33).

“Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account” (Hebrews 4:13).

“Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows” (Luke 12:7).

“Whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything” (1 John 3:20).

“Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered” (Matthew 10:29-30).

Great post!

 

[ViaCrucis]

Unfortunately, 100% of Protestantism rejects this kind of faith in favor of the alter call intellectual based salvation that neither transforms nor forgives

We don't have altar calls in Lutheranism, altar calls are a 19th century American invention. The closest we have to an "altar call" is the Holy Eucharist, where we receive the true body and true blood of the Lord in and under bread and wine.

And the faith we have is faith which comes from outside ourselves, by the grace of God, as a gift (Ephesians 2:8). And the promises of God which are ours by grace, through faith, are irrevocable and true because God has made these promises and His word is true and never returns to Him void, but accomplishes what He sets it out to do (Isaiah 55:11).

We do not make Christ Lord. Christ is Lord, as we read, "He has made Him both Christ and Lord" (Acts 2:36) and also "Therefore God also highly exalted Him and gave Him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Philippians 2:9-11).

Faith, which we have received from God, is faith which trusts on this Lord Jesus Christ, in whom is found the promises of God, which are for us and our salvation; He therefore has saved us by the dying and rising of the Son of God, and we are the benefactors of this great work by the kindness and mercies of God when He has taken us and joined us together with His Son, as He has, in the waters of Holy Baptism (Romans 6:2-11, Galatians 3:27); that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ (Romans 10:17).

Those who turn toward our own efforts of righteousness preach falsely, confusing Law and Gospel and declaring that we can be holy and righteous by our own efforts to obey the commandments of God. But, St. Paul has been clear, that the Law was powerless to save us, and, indeed, what the Law could not do God has done by sending His Son in human likeness, born of a woman, born under the Law; that there is now a righteousness apart from the Law, through faith. This is the alien righteousness of Christ which is ours by the grace of God in which we stand justified--freely--by the grace of God. In light of this fact we ought to live godly and pleasing lives of obedience, not as though our efforts can contribute anything to our status before God but because as forgiven and redeemed people we respond to the love of God with a thankful heart. Dying daily in repentance, trusting and hoping in nothing besides the mercy of God which is in Christ, and giving thanks to He who has done all these things for us though we were unworthy of any of it.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[mark kennedy]

Shalom,

You want Yeshua as your savior, but not as your Lord and master, you belong to a faith that saves no one. If Yeshua is not your Lord, He is not your Savior.

There are plenty of beings that believe in Yeshua, back in the days when He walked the Earth. Yet they were not saved. They are plenty of demons, fallen angles, and people that know these things, but it doesn't help them. A reading of revelation reveals that the end times tribulation will cause everyone in the word to believe in Yeshua. Look at the sixth seal, it was said: "they will hide themselves in the rocks and in the caves on the Earth to hide from the face of the lamb, the one who sits on a throne." That's everyone in the whole world, they will be hiding, they will try to flee from the wrath of Yeshua, and everyone will know it's Yeshua and there will be no question. Yet how many people at that time will not have the mark of the beast? How many people at that time will reject anbeatrse God?

Believing in Yeshua the Messiah, who He is, that He is in heaven, and believing in the gospel alone without Jesus being your Lord and Master is not a faith that saves! That is a gospel of sin, a gospel of self and a gospel of idolatry. It is a gospel that tells that you can live however you want and come to God your own way under your own terms, and serve your own way.

You believe that certain things are true, because you believe in your own mind, without committing yourself to Him as your Lord and Master. Such a faith is a dead faith. There's no salvation in such faith. Yeshua is either your all, your everything or he is nothing. Period. Black or white, there is no middle ground, there's no grey area. All or nothing. It's either everything or your prayer is a waste of breath and time.

I think if we are going to beat up the straw man heresy it could at least be stated clearly. The idea is that you could receive Christ and never submit to his lordship. Which btw is kind of true. James 2 and 1 Cor 11 both describe situations where the rich mistreated the poor. James asks is this saving faith, and Paul says some of you are sick and some of you sleep.

Sure you can but those the Lord loves he disciplines and if your born again the Holy Spirit will tolerate only so much of it.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Shalom,

You want Yeshua as your savior, but not as your Lord and master, you belong to a faith that saves no one. If Yeshua is not your Lord, He is not your Savior.

There are plenty of beings that believe in Yeshua, back in the days when He walked the Earth. Yet they were not saved. They are plenty of demons, fallen angles, and people that know these things, but it doesn't help them. A reading of revelation reveals that the end times tribulation will cause everyone in the word to believe in Yeshua. Look at the sixth seal, it was said: "they will hide themselves in the rocks and in the caves on the Earth to hide from the face of the lamb, the one who sits on a throne." That's everyone in the whole world, they will be hiding, they will try to flee from the wrath of Yeshua, and everyone will know it's Yeshua and there will be no question. Yet how many people at that time will not have the mark of the beast? How many people at that time will reject and curse God?

Believing in Yeshua the Messiah, who He is, that He is in heaven, and believing in the gospel alone without Jesus being your Lord and Master is not a faith that saves! That is a gospel of sin, a gospel of self and a gospel of idolatry. It is a gospel that tells that you can live however you want and come to God your own way under your own terms, and serve your own way.

You believe that certain things are true, because you believe in your own mind, without committing yourself to Him as your Lord and Master. Such a faith is a dead faith. There's no salvation in such faith. Yeshua is either your all, your everything or he is nothing. Period. Black or white, there is no middle ground, there's no grey area. All or nothing. It's either everything or your prayer is a waste of breath and time.

Luke 14:32And if he can't, he will send a delegation to discuss terms of peace while the enemy is still far away.

What is the opponent demanding? What terms of peace is he offering?

 

[St_Worm2]

Unfortunately, 100% of Protestantism rejects this kind of faith in favor of the alter call intellectual based salvation that neither transforms nor forgives

Hi AoL, that's not true today (even if you mean it as a hyperbole), and it's never been true, not from the "get-go" of the Protestant faith. In fact, the guy who "wrote the book"* on Protestantism (so to speak), said this:

"We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone" ~John Calvin

SOME Protestant pastors teach a non-Lordship salvation, but I've found that most of those do so as a matter of "emphasis", IOW, they employ a hyperbole (of sorts) to make sure that their congregation understands that salvation is by grace through faith, apart from works of any kind (i.e. Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5 / cf John 5:24; Romans 4:5; Romans 10:9-10). That our salvation is all about what God does, not what we do.

They also teach that the life of one who claims to be a Christian should be transformed as a result of their salvation .. 2 Corinthians 5:17). If it isn't, IOW, if their life never demonstrates such a change (i.e. Ephesians 2:10; James 2:24), then their "claim" of becoming a Christian should probably be considered nothing more than that.

I was surprised (and happy) to hear this very thing preached in a short sermon by Joseph Prince (as I had been warned that he is a key teacher/preacher in the hyper/radical grace movement).

Sadly, what you say is true for some, but not for most (and certainly not for 100%).

Yours and His,
David



*Institutes of the Christian Religion ~John Calvin