Looking for the Two Witnesses? Look no further

[HannibalFlavius]

The two witnesses are right here in these Christian forum.


I don't say that I am both the witnesses because I still lack what it takes to be both but I'm not far from it.

Go to, and look in the Messianic forum and you will find people in there that have the testimony of Jesus and who keep the commandments of God.

These people are made of 3 parts just like everyone is made of 3 parts.

Two parts of them are two witnesses within them that testify of who they are.

They will have the spirit of Elijah that comes to prepare a highway for gentiles who wish to return to their first love in coming back to the roots of the first traditions and ways that Jesus and the disciples taught.

I wouldn't say all Messianics have the two witnesses, but I can name a few members of the Messianic forum that are in fact,'' Moses AND Elijah.''

Those who keep the commandments of God and also have the testimony of Jesus.


Likewise in speaking of the false prophet and the Antichrist, they are also two spirits that testify within a single person.

When Jesus showed us what the kingdom of heaven looks like, he showed us Elijah, Moses, and Jesus standing as one.

Likewise, the two sons of Thunder stood with Peter symbolizing One, a different view of the kingdom of heaven in 3 parts.

Jesus, Moses, and Elijah stood there and talked about what Jesus was to accomplish.

We are shown 3 people from the very beginning that represent a whole.

There were 3 in the garden that represented a single entity.

Those in the garden had 3 sons to represent a whole, Noah had 3 sons to represent a whole. There are two kingdoms and a city in between them that represent a whole.

There are 3 sections of the Temple that show a whole Body.

There are 3 main feasts of God which show a whole body.


The idea is to die everyday to yourself and to let Jesus live.

Jesus lives there as the spirit in you but there is still the body and the soul.

A perfect Christian who has achieved a perfect walk with God is to have 3 spirits that all agree and are one together, The blood, the water and the spirit.

A perfect follower of Jesus is a picture of the kingdom of heaven in 3 parts.

He is Moses, he is Elijah, and he is Jesus because he dies to himself daily.

His body goes around working to help others, and the law of the Lord is continually in his mouth. He loves the Lord with his whole body and soul, and he goes out in search of the lost sheep of Israel as a good shepherd would do.

He prepares a highway for gentiles wanting to return to the father and the brother, and he prepares the gentile in accepting the feasts of his God.

He prepares the gentile in teaching him the appointed visitation days of God and he continually tries to restore the hearts of the children back to the fathers and the hearts of the father's back to the children in bringing respect back to the Torah, the law of God given to the servant of God, Moses.


On the other hand we have a beast and a false prophet who stands against all that is called of God. He seeks to abolish the law of God and his duty is to turn the children of Israel away from keeping the commandments and feasts of God.

He also has 3 parts just as the kingdom of heaven has 3 parts, and with his body and soul, and spirit he seeks to change the times and seasons of God and to do away with the things of God.

He sits in his Temple opposing the very word of God and thinks he is a God because he thinks he has an authority that is above God.

But to find the two witnesses is no hard thing, I could point you to people here in these forums who are indwelled with the spirit of Moses and Elijah.

 

[Aijalon]

Hi friend.

There are no gentiles, there is only faith in Christ. There are no more Jews, only a synagog of Satan pretending to be Jews. Professing to be of Hebrew descent, or to have converted from "Judaism" to Christianity is wonderful, but Judaism is a dead and godless religion now used for Zionist purposes.

The only Zionist I will follow is the risen and bodily-returned Messiah, Jesus Christ.

I don't wish to be offensive to you are the Messianic guys you mention, and I do not want to ingnore the nugget you are aiming for here.

If the two witnesses are "inside of all of us" we can examine that.

But first we must address this nonsense about keeping the feasts.

He prepares a highway for gentiles wanting to return to the father and the brother, and he prepares the gentile in accepting the feasts of his God.

The feast of who's god? The gentile's god? Or your god? Is your god differnt than a gentile's god? It seems that in some way you are saying that he is.

Before going further do you recognize that the Messiah instituted an entirely superior covenant with the whole world, through the initiation of his Apostles into the communion of his Last Supper.

It is both a ritual feast we all "gentiles" take part in, but also a symbol of the daily communion we are to have by abiding in Christ.

The communion is the ONLY feast needed by the Christian or Messianic Jew. No other feast has anything to do with faith. The Hebrew feasts are defunct, dead, and for purposes of faith, destructive.

If the Hebrew feasts relate to the timing of end times events in any way, this is fine and well, they still do not relate to how gentiles have a relationship with Christ.

If there are lessons to be learned from the feasts (and there are) that is also good, because the scriptures are profitable for teaching, but observance of the feasts is still useless to us.

One of the more dangerous end times theologies is that Jesus has no more interest in the Land of Israel, and that the land grant concerning the 12 tribes as transfered from Abraham is dead. This is not the case. It is a mystery for Jesus to sort out when he returns to earth and calls his elect to himself to be his judges and princes and governors and abassadors, and even generals.

Any feasts that are reinstituted at that point I'll gladly participate in.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Hi friend.

There are no gentiles, there is only faith in Christ. There are no more Jews, only a synagog of Satan pretending to be Jews. Professing to be of Hebrew descent, or to have converted from "Judaism" to Christianity is wonderful, but Judaism is a dead and godless religion now used for Zionist purposes.

The only Zionist I will follow is the risen and bodily-returned Messiah, Jesus Christ.

I don't wish to be offensive to you are the Messianic guys you mention, and I do not want to ingnore the nugget you are aiming for here.

If the two witnesses are "inside of all of us" we can examine that.

But first we must address this nonsense about keeping the feasts.



The feast of who's god? The gentile's god? Or your god? Is your god differnt than a gentile's god? It seems that in some way you are saying that he is.

Before going further do you recognize that the Messiah instituted an entirely superior covenant with the whole world, through the initiation of his Apostles into the communion of his Last Supper.

It is both a ritual feast we all "gentiles" take part in, but also a symbol of the daily communion we are to have by abiding in Christ.

The communion is the ONLY feast needed by the Christian or Messianic Jew. No other feast has anything to do with faith. The Hebrew feasts are defunct, dead, and for purposes of faith, destructive.

If the Hebrew feasts relate to the timing of end times events in any way, this is fine and well, they still do not relate to how gentiles have a relationship with Christ.

If there are lessons to be learned from the feasts (and there are) that is also good, because the scriptures are profitable for teaching, but observance of the feasts is still useless to us.

One of the more dangerous end times theologies is that Jesus has no more interest in the Land of Israel, and that the land grant concerning the 12 tribes as transfered from Abraham is dead. This is not the case. It is a mystery for Jesus to sort out when he returns to earth and calls his elect to himself to be his judges and princes and governors and abassadors, and even generals.

Any feasts that are reinstituted at that point I'll gladly participate in.

I see, Tell me Aijalon, friend.

Give me your most learned insight on these scriptures.

17 And when we had come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 When he had greeted them, he told in detail those things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; 21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will[c] hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. 24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing,[d] except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.”


See, There were these horrid horrendous liars that went around lying about Paul and all the disciples concerning the keeping of the law.

Stephen was stoned because LIARS were paid to say that he and his new way was teaching the children of Israel to forsake the laws of Moses.

Imagine, These same type of liars are the ones who killed Jesus saying that Jesus taught the children of Israel to forsake the laws of Moses.


And here decades later the this great debate about keeping the law continued.

Jews became even more zealous in keeping the law and many thought that gentiles should also keep the law. The debate raged about gentiles keeping the law, but Jews keeping the law deaceds after Jesus died was NEVER in question.

AND STILL liars were telling terrible lies about Paul in saying that Paul was somehow teaching the children of Israel not to keep the law of Moses.

Just think about it, LIARS who were so troublesome for Paul that Paul had to make a big show out of keeping the law, just to PROVE THAT HE NEVER TAUGHT ISRAEL NOT TO KEEP THE LAW< AND HE HIMSELF WALKED ACCORDINGLY TO KEEP THE LAW HIMSELF.

But just imagine.

Liars everywhere who tell lies about Paul saying,'' Paul teaches the children of Israel not to keep the law, and Paul does not keep the law.''

The boldness of such liars amaze me.

 

[Aijalon]

These were lot lies about him, but it was in fact true that he taught these things. Your translation says that they were "informed" of these things. It doesn't say they were lied to. The simple truth is that Paul did teach to cease from circumcision, he taught that it was NOTHING.

What you're doing with this story is confusing an account of events with a teaching of doctrine about .

Paul was urged to perform rituals of the law in order that he might be given an opportunity to speak to the Jews as one of them. This was his custom, to become like those to whom he preached that the Gospel may not be hindered. And what did he preach to them when he came to them?

He said nothing of his observance of the law at all. He only did as he was told to do, in that he obeyd the advice to perform the purification.

If these things were not true of him, then the passge would state that these were lies, or that these things he had not said. BUT HE DID SAY THEM!

if you like I can just quote the scriptures where he says them...

 

[Hismessenger]

Two witnesses, the word and the spirit

hismessenger

 

[HannibalFlavius]

These were lot lies about him, but it was in fact true that he taught these things. Your translation says that they were "informed" of these things. It doesn't say they were lied to. The simple truth is that Paul did teach to cease from circumcision, he taught that it was NOTHING.

What you're doing with this story is confusing an account of events with a teaching of doctrine about .

Paul was urged to perform rituals of the law in order that he might be given an opportunity to speak to the Jews as one of them. This was his custom, to become like those to whom he preached that the Gospel may not be hindered. And what did he preach to them when he came to them?

He said nothing of his observance of the law at all. He only did as he was told to do, in that he obeyd the advice to perform the purification.

If these things were not true of him, then the passge would state that these were lies, or that these things he had not said. BUT HE DID SAY THEM!

if you like I can just quote the scriptures where he says them...

I am confusing the events?

Anyone can read what it says Ai, the only twisting going on is in your head.

We have Paul going out of his way to show himself keeping the law, and to prove that he wasn't teaching the children of Israel to forsake the law, not in circumcision or anything else, that's what we know.

Now you can call Paul a liar, a deceiver and two faced and also a coward if you try and say that he was putting on a fake show. That he was a liar trying to save his own skin and so all of the sudden he keeps the law and teaches the law.

But Paul had went out killing the disciples because liars were saying that Stephen was teaching Jews everywhere to forsake the law.

Paid liars to stone a man to death on a lie, and Stephen still forgave them for lying and Paul was behind many killings for the same lies.

Paul was so zealous for the law that he was killing all people who he thought were teaching Jews to not keep the law.

The fact is, To the Jew who comes to teach the Jew from keeping the law, that man should face the death penalty from trying to lead the people of God away from their God.

But Jesus and his disciples DID NOT teach the children of Israel to forsake the laws of Moses.

LIARS ARE LIARS!!!!!!!!

You want to rationalize what acts actually says, but anyone can read it, and anyone can find other liars and people being killed for these lies.

They are just liars, or Paul is a liar.

So witch is it?

Is Paul a lying deceitful, two faced man who acted like he was keeping the law to save his own skin?

If that were true, I wouldn't read anything Paul wrote, and if Paul's words go against Jesus speaking clearly about the commandments and teaching people to keep the commandments, then I choose Jesus over Paul.

 

[Douggg]

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


The two witnesses will lay dead in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days. The two witnesses will be two individual persons.


Doug

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


The two witnesses will lay dead in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days. The two witnesses will be two individual persons.


Doug

No they wont Dougg, Jesus was not killed in Jerusalem, he was taken out of Jerusalem outside the city.

Why do you say Jerusalem when Sodom and Egypt is a symbol of the world and everything against Jerusalem.

Rome killed Jesus and it was in Rome that he died, it was outside of Jerusalem.

They are two witnesses inside a person and there are very many of them which are considered the two witnesses.

There have always been two witnesses dougg.

There has always been a struggle of two spirits inside a person that struggle against each other.

But the body wants what it wants and the spirit wants what it wants and so they struggle.

Moses is asking people to go into a wilderness wherein there is no water or food, and he is asking the impossible.

Its because a person needs to learn that the body should give up all his needs to see to the needs of the spirit.

It takes a lot of will and effort to bring the body into subjection in order for the body to have the same goals as the spirit.

When both body and soul is used for the ways of God, they are witnesses before God in spirit.

Disciples were sent out 2 by 2 and told not to take anything for their trip because they were to learn that everything would come to them, just as food and water came to the wilderness for the people.

They are two witnesses that if rejected would also call the earth itself to be a third witness.

 

[Aijalon]

It was not a lie that he followed the law temporarily, in order that he could deceive the Jews for the chance to stand before them and evangelize to them.

"For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it" (1 Corinthians 9:19-23).

So there you go, Paul was not under the law of Moses. It seems pretty clear to me. It might be said that Paul never taught to forsake the Law, since it was not his aim to discourage the Law for those that wanted to practice it along with faith in Christ. But what he taught was the total sufficiency of faith in Christ to save apart from any of the Law of Moses. Performace of that law was divorced from salvation - and always was divorced from it.

In Acts 16:3 Paul circumcises Timothy out of respect for the Jews, but not out of concern for Timothy's performace of the Law. If you don't like it, fine, reject Paul, but the fact is that his performace of Mosaic law after his conversion was out convenience for preaching and spreading the Gospel of the good news. It was a stratagy to win Jews for Christ. He had no fear of performing the law, but for many Jews (perhaps like you) they believed they could not have eternal life unless they perfromed certain rituals - the foremost of which was circumcision.

Do you believe in the total sufficiency of Christ's blood to cover your sin? Do you believe you sin if you don't perform feasts and rituals like circumcision?

The Law of Moses has to do with the Land of Israel, which, if the Jews did not perform them the Curse of Moses would fall on them, and the land would vomit them out. And so it happened.

Rather than bicker over Paul following the law personally, why don't we discuss what he taught. His doctrine was such that the law was nothing. And in regard to these doctrines, you are teaching something different.

Shall I remind you what Paul said about those teaching a different Gospel? If there is anything unorthodox you wish to discuss, by all means, I will take you up on the discussioin in the appropriate forum. But you are certainly confusing one account of Paul performing one ritual as evidence that he teaches a doctrine that Jews must follow the Law of Moses, he taught no such thing. Surely you have some other passage that solidifies this doctrine of yours about Paul, and not these assumptions.

Jesus and the Apostles followed the laws while the nation of Israel was recognized by God, backslidden though it was. Thier doctrine applied to Jews and in light of the enforcement of the Old Covenant, but Christ instituted the New Covenant in his blood at the Passover meal.

Christ is now the High Priest, and being that he is in Heaven now, and that no temple exists how on earth can these laws be enforced? They cannot be! Not until Christ returns can any of the Mosaic laws return, it is only in Christ's presence that they can ever be fulfilled.

So skip the pleasntries and the assumptions about who lied about what. Why don't ou explain at what time you think these feasts are important for the Christian to perform. And what are the consequences for not performing them?

 

[Douggg]

So there you go, Paul was not under the law of Moses. It seems pretty clear to me. It might be said that Paul never taught to forsake the Law, since it was not his aim to discourage the Law for those that wanted to practice it along with faith in Christ. But what he taught was the total sufficiency of faith in Christ to save apart from any of the Law of Moses. Performace of that law was divorced from salvation - and always was divorced from it.

Well said.

Doug

 

[Bible2]

Douggg said in post 7:

The two witnesses will lay dead in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days. The two witnesses will be two individual persons.

That's right.

In Revelation 11:3-12, the two witnesses could be (literally) Moses and Elijah. For the two (literal) men seen "standing before the God of the earth" (Revelation 11:4) at the transfiguration were Moses and Elijah (Matthew 17:3). And in Revelation 11:4. the "two olive trees" refer back to the two men who were already standing by the Lord by the time of the prophet Zechariah (Zechariah 4:11,14), which was subsequent to the times of Moses and Elijah.

Moses and Elijah could come down from heaven in their mortal bodies at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, just as they came down at the transfiguration. Also, the plagues that the two witnesses will cause (Revelation 11:6,5) will match plagues that Moses and Elijah caused in Old Testament times (James 5:17, Exodus 7:20; 2 Kings 1:10-14). Elijah never died, but was taken bodily into heaven (2 Kings 2:11b). And Michael retrieved Moses' dead body from Satan (Jude 1:9). Michael could have then taken Moses' body into heaven, where it could have been resuscitated back to mortal life, like, for example, Lazarus' dead body was resuscitated back to mortal life (John 12:1). This would explain how both Moses and Elijah could appear alive and well at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:3).

The two witnesses will prophesy and bring plagues on the world during the future, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 11:2b,3,6) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 12:6,14), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. That's why the Antichrist's reign will legally end (Revelation 11:15) right after the time of the two witnesses on the earth will end (Revelation 11:12-15). The plagues that they will bring (Revelation 11:6) will be part of the tribulation's 2nd woe/6th trumpet (Revelation 11:14, Revelation 9:12-13). They will be taken up to heaven before the tribulation's 7th trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:12,15).

They may not be witnesses in the sense of evangelizing the world (Acts 1:8), for the original Greek word (martus, G3144) translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can also refer to those who witness against people and bring punishment against them (Acts 7:58). The reason that there will be two witnesses (Revelation 11:3) who will bring plagues to torment the unrepentant world (Revelation 11:6,10b) would be because two witnesses are required to bring judgment against people (1 Timothy 5:19). At the same time, the two "witnesses" could be called that because both of them will be martyred (Revelation 11:7-9). For the same Greek word translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can refer to "martyrs" (Revelation 17:6).

 

[HannibalFlavius]

That's right.

In Revelation 11:3-12, the two witnesses could be (literally) Moses and Elijah. For the two (literal) men seen "standing before the God of the earth" (Revelation 11:4) at the transfiguration were Moses and Elijah (Matthew 17:3). And in Revelation 11:4. the "two olive trees" refer back to the two men who were already standing by the Lord by the time of the prophet Zechariah (Zechariah 4:11,14), which was subsequent to the times of Moses and Elijah.

Moses and Elijah could come down from heaven in their mortal bodies at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, just as they came down at the transfiguration. Also, the plagues that the two witnesses will cause (Revelation 11:6,5) will match plagues that Moses and Elijah caused in Old Testament times (James 5:17, Exodus 7:20; 2 Kings 1:10-14). Elijah never died, but was taken bodily into heaven (2 Kings 2:11b). And Michael retrieved Moses' dead body from Satan (Jude 1:9). Michael could have then taken Moses' body into heaven, where it could have been resuscitated back to mortal life, like, for example, Lazarus' dead body was resuscitated back to mortal life (John 12:1). This would explain how both Moses and Elijah could appear alive and well at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:3).

The two witnesses will prophesy and bring plagues on the world during the future, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 11:2b,3,6) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 12:6,14), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. That's why the Antichrist's reign will legally end (Revelation 11:15) right after the time of the two witnesses on the earth will end (Revelation 11:12-15). The plagues that they will bring (Revelation 11:6) will be part of the tribulation's 2nd woe/6th trumpet (Revelation 11:14, Revelation 9:12-13). They will be taken up to heaven before the tribulation's 7th trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:12,15).

They may not be witnesses in the sense of evangelizing the world (Acts 1:8), for the original Greek word (martus, G3144) translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can also refer to those who witness against people and bring punishment against them (Acts 7:58). The reason that there will be two witnesses (Revelation 11:3) who will bring plagues to torment the unrepentant world (Revelation 11:6,10b) would be because two witnesses are required to bring judgment against people (1 Timothy 5:19). At the same time, the two "witnesses" could be called that because both of them will be martyred (Revelation 11:7-9). For the same Greek word translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can refer to "martyrs" (Revelation 17:6).

The two witnesses are already bringing down judgment on people, they already speak with fire coming out of their mouth, they are already changing the weather.

But will somebody come whom God will hear?

Will somebody come and say a prayer and cause actual changes in weather and earthquakes or whatever they want?

Yes, they are already here.

If you spoke to such a man, what would you ask of him?

Would you want proof that God would hear his prayer?

Ask what you will, but be careful of what you ask.

God does hear the prayers of some.

But if you had this, if you knew that you had God's ear, and you knew that anything you asked would be given you.

Would you be so willing to do it?

So willing to call down judgment on people?

If you want proof, ask something specific and I will ask God, and when it doesn't come true, you can laugh at me.

But be carful what you ask.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

It was not a lie that he followed the law temporarily, in order that he could deceive the Jews for the chance to stand before them and evangelize to them.

"For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it" (1 Corinthians 9:19-23).

Its just sad that you see Paul as a deceiver and a liar and you still read what he writes.

THAT IS what you are saying.

That Paul is a deceiver and a liar who will be two faced to save his skin and two faced to make people like him.

He has no problem lying to people, and he basically has no firm religion because he can change religions and what he believes at the drop of a hat.

Why in the world would you follow a liar?

It would be one thing if you said you didn't know, or was confused or anything.

But you freely admit that you think he is a liar and a deceiver.

It is even more sad that you found somebody to agree with you.

So you go about teaching against the commandments of God following a deceiver and liar, and may I add, a coward.

This is the man you follow?

Seems that way because you would use Paul's words to prove the words of Jesus wrong.

 

[Aijalon]

I'm not really sure I followed all that. Are you playing devils advocate for the sake of argument?

Of course he's not a liar. He was simply doing what the elders told him to do.

If he really followed the law, why would they need to tell him what to do? This makes no sense.

You know, I've asked you a lot of questions already and you don't answer them, you just want to trap me into accepting that Paul either followed the law, or was a liar. Well he didn't follow the law, but your premise that he was a liar is foolishness.

Why, ohhhh WHY does he himself say in his letters he is not under the law??? Why?

But if you wish, why don't we skip what Paul said and talk about what Jesus said, since that seems to be in conflict with what Paul said as you see it.

What part of the law must ethnic Jews follow? Just feasts? Or more?

Are gentiles obligated to do the same?

 

[HannibalFlavius]

I'm not really sure I followed all that. Are you playing devils advocate for the sake of argument?

Of course he's not a liar. He was simply doing what the elders told him to do.

If he really followed the law, why would they need to tell him what to do? This makes no sense.

You know, I've asked you a lot of questions already and you don't answer them, you just want to trap me into accepting that Paul either followed the law, or was a liar. Well he didn't follow the law, but your premise that he was a liar is foolishness.

Why, ohhhh WHY does he himself say in his letters he is not under the law??? Why?

But if you wish, why don't we skip what Paul said and talk about what Jesus said, since that seems to be in conflict with what Paul said as you see it.

What part of the law must ethnic Jews follow? Just feasts? Or more?

Are gentiles obligated to do the same?

YOU, not me, but you painted a picture of Paul that would show him to be a liar, a picture that you yourself called him a deceiver.

A man who willingly deceived in order to save his own skin, or to be accepted by all people. You paint a picture of a man who is just a plain liar with no sure foundation. You paint a picture of a man who would lie and be one way to gentiles but then lie and deceive the Jews in proving that HE HIMSELF KEPT THE TORAH AND TAUGHT OTHERS TO KEEP THE TORAH.,....

This is in fact what Paul did. He addressed the liars who were telling lies and rumors about him teaching the children of Israel to forsake the Torah.

He NEVER taught the children of Israel to forsake the Torah, but your theory is that he in fact LIED through his teeth and deceived the Jews into believing that he himself walked accordingly keeping the laws of Moses, and that he was not teaching Jews to forsake the law of Moses.

I ask you---'' If you think Paul didn't go on keeping the law, and you think Paul went around teaching Jews not to keep the law, But then when the question arose, you think he lied and deceived the Jews into believing that He himself kept the law and never taught Jews to forsake the law.'' Then why would you follow the words of a liar and a deceiver?

If you think that Paul is so two faced and such a liar, then why and how can you present any of his words about the law and think you have the truth?

If you have already decided that he is a liar and a deceiver, then why do you think you have the truth in his words anywhere?

Once you have proved Paul to be a liar, a deceiver, a coward, How then can you try and give me your theory of keeping the law based on Paul's words?

The words of a liar.

There is nothing else to discuss now that you have proven Paul to be a liar.

Do you understand?

I don't want to hear you say anything Paul says after that point, why would I?

You yourself prove him to be a liar, but if you were somehow correct that Paul taught against the keeping of the commandments of God, I would have no use for him at all.


The debate over whether gentiles should keep the law went on for decades.

This debate had nothing to do with Jews keeping the law, It was only a question whether gentiles should keep the law like Jews continued doing.








And here is my point and my request----STOP TEACHING PEOPLE THAT PAUL TAUGHT JEWS NOT TO KEEP THE LAWS OF MOSES!!!!!!!!!!


You have no reason at all to say this lie and it is IN FACT A LIE.

Maybe you are confused, and you don't realize its not true.

It is still nevertheless a lie, and it is a lie that killed Jesus, and his disciples.

Make yourself free, Only admit that gentiles have been let out of keeping the law, this was never done with Jews.

Only the curse of the law was taken away, not the keeping of the law. The Holy spirit is given to give strength in keeping the law.

You have no reason to go around teaching what is not true about Jews.

You don't want to keep the law?

Your a gentile?

So don't keep the law, But by God, STOP TEACHING PEOPLE THAT PAUL TAUGHT JEWS TO FORSAKE THE LAW.

HE DID NOT!!!!!!!!!!

So why bring sin on your own head because of it?

You put yourself right amongst the liars that lied about Paul, the same liars that lied about Jesus, and the same liars that lied about Stephen.

Paid liars to lie saying,'' These disciples of Jesus teach all Jews everywhere to forsake the laws of Moses.''

THEY DID NOT AI!

Why do you want to be amongst the people who lied about Paul?

Make yourself free, its not hard Ai, it doesn't mean that you have to start keeping the law, it means that you are willing to recognize that Jews have their own culture and their own instructions from God and they are born to walk in the law.

Why do you want to strip them of their culture and heritage?

There is no reason for it Ai.

 

[Aijalon]

I feel that since God has no respect for ethnicity regarding eternal salvation that keeping the Law cannot apply differently regarding salvation to different ethnic groups.

Even if I accept that it was not Pauls explicit teaching to forsake the law, the fact still remains that he did not follow it. He only preached that the Law was not what saved, but you seem to insist that for Jews it is a requirement that faith for Jews mandate adherance to the law of Moses, but this was actually the precise thing that Paul was against.

Tell me what the following passage from Galatians means to you then, so I can understand you.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, &#8220;Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.&#8221;[e] 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for &#8220;the just shall live by faith.&#8221;[f] 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but &#8220;the man who does them shall live by them.&#8221;[g]

 

[Douggg]

This debate had nothing to do with Jews keeping the law, It was only a question whether gentiles should keep the law like Jews continued doing.

There are 613 mitzvots of the law of Moses that the Jews keep. Paul never advocated that the gentiles live according to or keep those. This link lists the laws and the referenced bible verses. Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) The Rambam compiled them into an order, but they would have been the same laws the Jews were keeping back at the time of Paul.

Doug

 

[HannibalFlavius]

There are 613 mitzvots of the law of Moses that the Jews keep. Paul never advocated that the gentiles live according to or keep those. This link lists the laws and the referenced bible verses. Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) The Rambam compiled them into an order, but they would have been the same laws the Jews were keeping back at the time of Paul.

Doug

I don't hold to all the traditions of the Jews and all of the laws the Jews made for themselves.

Just as Jesus had a problem with some of their traditions, I also have a problem and so did Paul, but there is a way to keep the law as it should be kept in its original intent.

Jesus came teaching the secrets of the Torah and what things really meant.

The Jews had their own views which in many cases were wrong.

There was a lot of gentiles wanting to keep all the invented Jewish things that Paul had a problem with.

When Paul is speaking to gentiles about trying to be like Jews, it was because they hungered to become like the Jews.

But the Jews had many Sabbaths and traditions and wrong views on the law that the weight of it would have smothered the gentile in so many ways.

There is the basic 3 feasts that people should concern themselves with, but there are many, many Sabbaths and fasts that the Jews keep that the gentile should leave alone.

 

[Interplanner]

Caring for your neighbor as though he were yourself fulfills all the Law.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Caring for your neighbor as though he were yourself fulfills all the Law.

Yes that's fine, but learning the 7 feasts of Christ is to know who Jesus is and what he comes to do.

Will you talk to a heathen about Jesus being your Passover Christ and then tell him to have nothing to do with Passover?

Wouldn't he look at you like you were crazy?

If you have learned enough about Jesus, what was it that taught you that you should even need a savior?

And all those things that taught you, are they no good for teaching any longer?

If you throw out the law and the prophets and the ways of God, what else do you have?

Will you end up being a religion that has no foundation because you did away with it all?