Looking for at least one other serious Bible student - regarding end times.

[BobRyan]

Chuck Missler's 24 session Youtube Revelation commentary is the best teaching on end time events that I have ever seen. He presents comprehensive Scripture support for his views and he has unlocked the book of Revelation to me. Don't take my word for it. View the sessions for yourself and make up your own mind.

Out of curiosity "does it matter"? Does Missler present a view "that matters"?

The argument in the post of mine that you are quoting is "most popular views present a scenario that does not matter". Is Missler promoting one of the "does not matter" ideas already discussed in the OP #1 ?

Here is an example where Missler chooses one of the "does not matter" scenarios

Not knowing what Missler teaches about Rev 4 - 5 "does not matter" when he talks about 2 second comings. The person that is a Christian that knows nothing about it ... "gets raptured anyway". The person that does not know about it and is not a Christian "gets a second shot at it". Either way not knowing about it - means nothing at this point.

But that is never the feature of a Bible-endorsed ending-message where something big is about to happen (for example Noah's Ark)

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Out of curiosity "does it matter"? Does Missler present a view "that matters"?

The argument in the post of mine that you are quoting is "most popular views present a scenario that does not matter". Is Missler promoting one of the "does not matter" ideas already discussed in the OP #1 ?

Here is an example where Missler chooses one of the "does not matter" scenarios

Not knowing what Missler teaches about Rev 4 - 5 "does not matter" when he talks about 2 second comings. The person that is a Christian that knows nothing about it ... "gets raptured anyway". The person that does not know about it and is not a Christian "gets a second shot at it". Either way not knowing about it - means nothing at this point.

But that is never the feature of a Bible-endorsed ending-message where something big is about to happen (for example Noah's Ark)

I watched all 24 sessions, and he provided extensive Biblical evidence for the points he was making. I know that scholars have different points of view, as Missler stated, and he told his listeners not to believe everything he is saying, but to do their own homework in the Scriptures in order to come to their own conclusions. All he is doing is to present what seems right for him, therefore by his own admission, his is a fairly subjective view of the book of Revelation and what it contains.


However, you asked for a serious view concerning end time events, and I gave you one that seems right for me. What you do with it is your own affair based on what you see in the Scriptures.

 

[BobRyan]

I watched all 24 sessions, and he provided extensive Biblical evidence for the points he was making.

I agree with part of his rapture theory. John 14, 1 Thess 4:13-18, Matt 24:29-31 do show that Christ returns and raptures all the saints to heaven.

But the next event is the 1000 years and then comes the rule of Christ on earth.

In any case - Do you see any point where Missler says that not accepting his view causes any risk at all to anyone? In other words knowing what he says is his view "does not matter". If that is the case it breaks the model that Christ gives in Matt 24 where it is important to get this right, IT breaks the model of John the baptizer's model where it was very important to get that right, and it breaks the model of Noah's message.

I know that scholars have different points of view, as Missler stated,

True. But the OP deals with the issue that all that wrong models have one thing in common "if they are right, then not knowing about it - does not matter".

All he is doing is to present what seems right for him, therefore by his own admission, his is a fairly subjective view of the book of Revelation and what it contains.

Agreed. But does he ever say why it would even matter if he was right?

However, you asked for a serious view concerning end time events, and I gave you one that seems right for me.

No doubt everyone has their own preference -- but the point in the OP was that all the wrong views state their selected solution in such a way that "it does not matter". It is a "nice to know" but you miss nothing at all by not knowing about it in terms of going to heaven or not, being in Christ's kingdom or not etc.

Yet when we read the teaching of Christ in this in Matt 24 and in 2 Thess 2 and in Rev 13 -- being wrong on this topic --- matters a great deal.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I agree with part of his rapture theory. John 14, 1 Thess 4:13-18, Matt 24:29-31 do show that Christ returns and raptures all the saints to heaven.

But the next event is the 1000 years and then comes the rule of Christ on earth.

In any case - Do you see any point where Missler says that not accepting his view causes any risk at all to anyone? In other words knowing what he says is his view "does not matter". If that is the case it breaks the model that Christ gives in Matt 24 where it is important to get this right, IT breaks the model of John the baptizer's model where it was very important to get that right, and it breaks the model of Noah's message.

True. But the OP deals with the issue that all that wrong models have one thing in common "if they are right, then not knowing about it - does not matter".

Agreed. But does he ever say why it would even matter if he was right?

No doubt everyone has their own preference -- but the point in the OP was that all the wrong views state their selected solution in such a way that "it does not matter". It is a "nice to know" but you miss nothing at all by not knowing about it in terms of going to heaven or not, being in Christ's kingdom or not etc.

Yet when we read the teaching of Christ in this in Matt 24 and in 2 Thess 2 and in Rev 13 -- being wrong on this topic --- matters a great deal.

I appreciate your point of view. There is a lot we don't know about what is going to happen, and so we have to stay on the roller coaster and ride it out. I think that the next event for us is the Rapture, and to ensure that we will be part of it is to examine ourselves to ensure that our faith is in Christ and His finished work on the Cross. I once asked the Lord what would be my qualifications for me to get into His heaven. I told Him that I think my only qualification would be that Jesus died for me on the Cross. His answer was, "That's all you need." Then a short time later He said, "And that's all you ever needed". I think that the Lord was having a dig at me over the time as a rising young turk in the church as a deacon who thought I was making pretty good progress toward being a really successful Christian. It brought me down to earth to realise that no matter how I thought of myself in terms of Christian progress and promotion in the church, my only qualification that the Lord would accept is that Jesus died for me on the Cross. "Nothing in my hands I bring, but simply to the Cross I cling". Now that I am 75 years of ago and much of life has passed me by, the Cross of Christ has become much more in focus for me.

The great hope for me is that because of the Rapture, I won't have to endure any of the events around the Great Tribulation, the effects of the seven seals, the seven trumpets, or the seven bowls and the horrific events that come with them. So, with that in mind, I guess that a lot of the theological stuff that goes along with end time events doesn't matter too much to me. But I find it fascinating watching commentaries about how they could fan out as time goes by.

 

[BobRyan]

No doubt everyone has their own preference -- but the point in the OP was that all the wrong views state their selected solution in such a way that "it does not matter". They make it a "nice to know" but you miss nothing at all by not knowing about it in terms of going to heaven or not, being in Christ's kingdom or not etc.

That is clearly NOT how Christ presents this topic in Matt 24:24-21, not how John the baptizer presents his message, no how Noah presents his message.

That should be a huge wakeup call - that in these wrong views - "something is amiss".

I appreciate your point of view. There is a lot we don't know about what is going to happen.. I think that the next event for us is the Rapture, and to ensure that we will be part of it is to examine ourselves to ensure that our faith is in Christ and His finished work on the Cross.

Where there is a rapture or not - everyone would say that we need to be a Christian, a real Christian. After that - it does not matter if there is or is not a rapture, or if there is one whether it is pre or post trib does not matter -- at least that is the one thing all the wrong views have in common.

I once asked the Lord what would be my qualifications for me to get into His heaven. I told Him that I think my only qualification would be that Jesus died for me on the Cross. His answer was, "That's all you need."

Indeed the issue of whether to be a Christian or not and how to do it - was the same all along.

So take a close look at how this is described in Matt 24 and in 2 Thess 2, and in Rev 13 and let me know if the only thing the text says is "just be a Christian and all is well"?

You could say the same thing in Noah's day - just be a Christian. yet the fact is - if you did not ALSO get on the boat you would end up as a drowned Christian who refused to listen to the message God gave Noah, and then that gets to the topic of whether refusing God's warning message -- is a "saving experience" or not.

The great hope for me is that because of the Rapture, I won't have to endure any of the events around the Great Tribulation,

millions of Christians have been tortured, burned alive , died for their faith. So I am guessing you call that "not tribulation.

What exactly do you expect to "miss out on" when raptured -- given that being starved, tortured, burned alive is already the case for Christians for 1000's of years and so could also be your own pre-rapture ending?.

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 24 - Jesus says it is very important to get this right.
2 Thess 2 - Jesus says not getting this right is fatal
Rev 13 - says nearly all the word goes off the cliff - totally mislead.

So now TWO examples:

1. FIRST Example: The fake one where there is NO Satan, no devil, no fallen angels

In this case your model is safe because you don't really need to be right about any rapture or second coming events now. Whatever happens will happen and you are just fine. If Jesus shows up sets up his kingdom and tells you that your entire rapture idea was wrong so now just enjoy being with Christ in the millennial kingdom... well you are just fine then.

If Jesus shows up and says there is no millennial kingdom but everything being fixed and all will be well for all eternity - well you are just fine.

If Jesus shows up and says you missed the rapture seven years ago - it happened in another part of the world , but now you are here for the millennial kingdom with Christ -- well you are just fine.

After all - without a supernatural fireworks dazzling fake second coming done by a Satan (which can't happen because in this example Satan does not exist) then all is well no matter how wrong you are, just go with whatever scenario plays out.


2. Second Example: where there IS a real Satan and real fallen angels and they can pull off a pretty good fake -- of any of the scenarios they wish. The one where the Bible is right so say Satan fakes out the entire world, "powerful delusion" works. Coming with "all power and lying wonders" 2 Thess 2

So then Satan appears as a bright shining Christ, with his demon angels appearing as bright shining angels and sets up his supposedly-millennial kingdom on Earth. Remember ALL Christian views accept the fact that ALL can't be right so we fully expect a single scenario is the right one and all the other guys need to be at peace with the fact that their chosen scenario had some missing pieces. So then you too would not be very surprised to find that your own scenario needed some "adjustment" to fit what Satan is presenting as the real ending ( or so he will say).

hmmm - that is where you then "totally go for it" because there is nothing in any of the views that takes this detail into account or has a solution for it.

It pretty much does not matter which of the scenarios in example 1 he wishes to "fake" you will be "all in".

3. Matt 24 Jesus says Satan and his false-christ program takes in the world. 2 Thess 2 - says Satan and his false Christ scenario takes in the world. Rev 13 says Satan sets up a powerful fake and takes in the entire world.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

It's harder to find than you might think. A lot of people view forums like this one on endtimes as not really for serious Bible students since few if any are willing to consider that they are wrong about something and will not accept a text in opposition to their view no matter how clear it is.

So let's propose something a bit more serious and reasonable --

Starting at 55:58 in that video of a church service
(keep watching to see the BIG BANG near the end from Rev 6)

near the start of this sermon he gives some examples of historic failures to take end-time, crisis, critical events "seriously".

1. The Flood -- The entire planet gets it wrong - only 8 people get it right.
And the "thinking" ??

"I am not sure if Noah is right - so I may not join him but I will be near enough - so that when I see rain start to form/fall, or hear thunder, I will get in the boat".​

And of course the "Flaw" in that not-serious solution is that the door of the ark closed seven days BEFORE the rain starts to fall according to Gen 7.

2. The coming of the Messiah - "He came to His own and His own received Him not" John 1:11 - the "nation got it wrong".
And "the thinking"??

" Why should I worry about which of all these fake messiah claims are legit when I can just wait until some so-called Messiah comes along and frees us from the Romans - as soon as I see him do that I will join in and miss all the fake false messiahs".​

And the flaw -- is that they would reject the Is 53 Messiah that came to save the world from sin.

The video makes the argument that "bad doctrine has consequences" as in the case of Eve, as in the case of those that "missed the boat".


======================================= part I
The video above is about Rev 13 and 14 and the first part (Part I) is referenced a few times in that video so I am including it here

Title: Rev 13 – “The mark of the beast”

Begins at 00:00
=======================================================

One thing that stands out is that "getting it wrong" was not just "mildly inconvenient on some tiny level" - but in fact was fatal.


Next the video gets into our current situation - where we are dealing with end time events for planet Earth.

1. Rapture: (many flavors of this idea in the Bible some of them discussed in the sermon)

Almost all the popular versions have NO DOWNSIDE to getting the rapture teaching wrong. No matter what you are thinking or expecting you get raptured anyway as a Christian. So why waste your time trying to figure out the details of that topic - as long as you are a Christian. Unlike ALL the real examples in the Bible where getting it wrong matters. (Even though I do accept a version of the Rapture teaching as being in scripture)​

2. No Rapture; (several flavors of this)

Almost all the popular versions have NO DOWNSIDE to getting the no-rapture teaching wrong. No matter what you are thinking or expecting you get the wonderful ending of Christ on Earth fixing everything for you in the end. (And even I view Christ as fixing things on Earth but not in the typical millennial kingdom on Earth fashion)​

​

So why waste your time solving the details on that topic - as long as you are a Christian. Since in that case - and unlike ALL the real examples in the Bible where getting it wrong matters) it matters not if you figure out the details.​

​

My view is that it does matter (just as in all major crisis examples) and that the "it really does not matter" endings reveal a problem somewhere in the scenario being proposed.

​

The video proposes a more serious option where it DOES matter at the end of the world JUST LIKE it mattered in the case of Eve, and Noah, and John the baptizer and in the days of Paul etc.

Is there even one other serious Bible student on this area of the forum willing to take an honest look at the option proposed there - even though it does not fit your bias?

===============================

If you are tempted to post something like one of the following ... please don't since I already agree that you have the free will to go that direction
1. I don't have to listen to any view that is not my own if I choose not to
2. I choose to only have bad things to say about people or views that are not my own rather than looking at details in that view
3. I already looked at Bible details to get to my current view and don't have time to look any further

By sparing us those posts you are doing a big favor to us all in the spirit of open discussion. I thank you in advance.

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (Romans 11:29)​

God has not cast away the people he foreknew.

Christ gathers the elect in the air to return them to the Earth.

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory. (Matthew 25:31)​

The false prophetess Ellen White’s misrepresentations of the "age to come" do not preclude the promises in the OT.

 

[keras]

The great hope for me is that because of the Rapture, I won't have to endure any of the events around the Great Tribulation

This is where you and many deviate from what the Bible really does tell us.
We are told twice that we must endure until the end. Matthew 24:13, Revelation 14:12, +
Our great hope is the glorious Return of Jesus to reign on earth for a thousand years. Titus 2:13

That should be a huge wakeup call - that in these wrong views - "something is amiss".

It should be, when what the actual Word says, conflicts with your beliefs.
But as Isaiah 29:9-12 tell us, people who choose to believe false teachings or are too lazy to properly read and understand the Prophesies, will be locked into their delusions and made incapable of understanding the truth.
Note; the REBible says; If you confuse yourself, you will stay confused...... Amaze, as many other trans. render it, is not correct and makes that scripture meaningless.

 

[Douggg]

Our great hope is the glorious Return of Jesus to reign on earth for a thousand years. Titus 2:13

The great hope is the completion of our salvation - the redemption of our bodies. The rapture/resurrection event. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Looking up for our salvation is near, eagerly awaiting the voice of our Lord and Savior Jesus, accompanied by the trump of God the voice of the arch angel - when Jesus shouts the soul stirring words - "come up here!" The graves will open, and the dead in Christ, their corrupted remains will put on incorruption, that which was mortal will put on immortatlity. And we who are alive will be done likewise, changed in the twinkling of an eye. And we leave this world.

1Thessalonians5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.


1Corinthianss 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The great hope is the completion of our salvation - the redemption of our bodies. The rapture/resurrection event. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Looking up for our salvation is near, eagerly awaiting the voice of our Lord and Savior Jesus, accompanied by the trump of God the voice of the arch angel - when Jesus shouts the soul stirring words - "come up here!" The graves will open, and the dead in Christ, their corrupted remains will put on incorruption, that which was mortal will put on immortatlity. And we who are alive will be done likewise, changed in the twinkling of an eye. And we leave this world.

1Thessalonians5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.


1Corinthianss 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

What will happen at the end of the time of the Gentiles, which could happen at any moment when the last Gentile person receives Christ, the Rapture will happen when the believers who are alive will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. The dead in Christ will arise first, and this will be the first resurrection.

But the Second Coming of Christ in person will depend on particular world events that have to come to pass first. One of the main events was the Israel returning to their own land. According to Scripture, the Temple will need to be rebuilt, because when Christ comes in person He will take the throne of David, and that throne will be the Mercy Seat which will be in the Holy of Holies in the rebuilt Temple. Also, what needs to happen is that Babylon will fall. Babylon didn't fall when Cyrus entered it. He took it without a fight, and it survived until fairly recent times. It was not destroyed. It fell into ruin because it was deserted. Before Iraq was invaded, Sadaam Hussein was in the progress of rebuilding Babylon. It still needs to be rebuilt, and afterward will fall and be destroyed. Once the Rapture takes place, the AntiChrist will be revealed and he and the false prophet will govern, bring in the Great Tribulation. It will be after that the Lord will come in person accompanied by His angels and saints, throw the AntiChrist and false prophet into the lake of fire, and take up the throne of David to reign the 1000 years of the Millennium. After that, the second resurrection will take place when all the unbelievers will be raise to stand before Great White Throne and be judged according to their works. All this is shown in the book of Revelation.

You don't have to take my word for it. As the Bereans in Acts 17:11 you can do your own Biblical homework to determine what you discover as you search the Scriptures.

 

[Douggg]

What will happen at the end of the time of the Gentiles, which could happen at any moment when the last Gentile person receives Christ, the Rapture will happen when the believers who are alive will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. The dead in Christ will arise first, and this will be the first resurrection.

Watchman1, you and I are about the same age. you, 75. me, 74.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The times of the Gentiles is tied to how long Jerusalem with be occupied by the nations, while the Jews are in exile. The times of the Gentiles ended in 1967, when the Jews regained Jerusalem, and is now the capital of Israel.

The times of the Gentiles does not mean when the last gentile person becomes a Christian, then the Rapture will happen.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Watchman1, you and I are about the same age. you, 75. me, 74.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The times of the Gentiles is tied to how long Jerusalem with be occupied by the nations, while the Jews are in exile. The times of the Gentiles ended in 1967, when the Jews regained Jerusalem, and is now the capital of Israel.

The times of the Gentiles does not mean when the last gentile person become a Christian, then the Rapture will happen.

The spanner in the works of that is that the Jews around the world are still being persecuted, the Christian church is anti-Semitic in most areas, and the Jews have not yet occupied the full area of the land awarded to them by Covenant (from the Mediterranean to the Euphrates.

The Scripture says that the Rapture will occur at any time and without warning, separate from world events, but will be a decision made by the Father. I believe it will be when the last Gentile receives Christ, because after the Rapture happens, no Gentile believers will be present, and the time of Tribulation will happen involving the Jews and Gentile unbelievers still alive.

If the time of the Gentiles ended in1967, the Rapture should have happened then, but it didn't, so I believe that we are still in the time of the Gentiles and the Church Age. The Rapture will signal the end of the Church Age, and the believers in Christ, both Jew and Gentile will appear before the Bema throne of Christ to receive their reward for service, and then take part in the marriage supper of the Lamb. They will remain with the Lord until all else is fulfilled and He returns in Person to the earth to take His seat on the throne of David in the rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem to reign for 1000 years.

However, if we fall off the perch before the Rapture, we will rise first, followed by those still living and enjoy being in the presence of the Lord while the rest of the end time events come to their conclusion.

 

[Douggg]

The Scripture says that the Rapture will occur at any time and without warning, separate from world events, but will be a decision made by the Father.

Years ago, I titled my rapture timing view as the "anytime rapture view".

The rapture/resurrection event window is any time between right this very second until the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claiming to have achieved God-hood. Exactly when will be a decision the Father makes - I agree with you on that.

 

[Freth]

Daniel 9:24-27

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem [Artaxerxes 457 BC; Ezra 7] unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks [69 weeks total]: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks [which follow the 7 weeks; 69 weeks total] shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week [31 AD; middle of the last week] he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 9:24 "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people..."

• 69 weeks:
  • Daniel 9:25 "From the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the prince shall be 7 weeks and threescore and two weeks."
    • 7 weeks + 62 weeks = 69 weeks.
    • The commandment to restore Jerusalem (Artaxerxes 457 BC; Ezra 7:1-27) unto Messiah the Prince (the Messiah baptized in 27 AD) totals is 483 years (69 weeks) of the 490 years (70 weeks).
• 70th week:
  • Daniel 9:26 "And after threescore and two weeks shall the Messiah be cut off..."
  • Daniel 9:27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease..."
    • As per verse 25, there were 7 weeks first and then the 62 weeks. After 62 weeks (plus the first 7), i.e. after the 69th week, which is the 70th week.
    • The covenant is confirmed for one week—the 70th week.
    • 27-31 AD—Jesus is baptized marking the start of the 70th week.
      • The ministry of Jesus. 3 1/2 years.
    • 31 AD—The Messiah is cut off in the middle of the 70th week (the crucifixion).
    • 31-34 AD—Post-crucifixion.
      • The Jews reject Jesus.
      • At the end of the 3 1/2 years, the end of the 70th week.
        • Stephen is stoned (Acts 7:59).
        • The gospel goes to the Gentiles (Acts 28:28).

Given Daniel 9's description of the 70th week being the week of the Messiah...

• The 70th week of the 70 week time prophecy has already been fulfilled as per above.
  • The 7 year period cannot be applied to any future end time event, not even the great tribulation.
  • The 3 1/2 years of the 7 year period before and after the crucifixion cannot be applied to any future end time event, not even the great tribulation.

 

[Douggg]

Daniel 9:24 "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people..."

• 69 weeks:
  • Daniel 9:25 "From the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the prince shall be 7 weeks and threescore and two weeks."
    • 7 weeks + 62 weeks = 69 weeks.
    • The commandment to restore Jerusalem (Artaxerxes 457 BC; Ezra 7:1-27) unto Messiah the Prince (the Messiah baptized in 27 AD) totals is 483 years (69 weeks) of the 490 years (70 weeks).
• 70th week:
  • Daniel 9:26 "And after threescore and two weeks shall the Messiah be cut off..."
  • Daniel 9:27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease..."
    • As per verse 25, there were 7 weeks first and then the 62 weeks. After 62 weeks (plus the first 7), i.e. after the 69th week, which is the 70th week.
    • The covenant is confirmed for one week—the 70th week.
    • 27-31 AD—Jesus is baptized marking the start of the 70th week.
      • The ministry of Jesus. 3 1/2 years.
    • 31 AD—The Messiah is cut off in the middle of the 70th week (the crucifixion).
    • 31-34 AD—Post-crucifixion.
      • The Jews reject Jesus.
      • At the end of the 3 1/2 years, the end of the 70th week.
        • Stephen is stoned (Acts 7:59).
        • The gospel goes to the Gentiles (Acts 28:28).

Given Daniel 9's description of the 70th week being the week of the Messiah...

• The 70th week of the 70 week time prophecy has already been fulfilled as per above.
  • The 7 year period cannot be applied to any future end time event, not even the great tribulation.
  • The 3 1/2 years of the 7 year period before and after the crucifixion cannot be applied to any future end time event, not even the great tribulation.

The 70th week is still future. The 2300 day time of the end vision (the Daniel 8:13-17 vision) of the little horn will take place during the 70th week. The 70th week ends with Jesus's Return - the last graphic below.

Daniel 9:21 - Daniel recognizes Gabriel from his earlier encounter in Daniel 8.
Daniel 9:23 - Gabriel told Daniel to consider the vision
Daniel 9:24 - the seventy weeks to include finishing prophecy and the vision.

The covenant to be confirmed by the little horn person turned Antichrist by being anointed the King of Israel coming in his own name is the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 years required by Moses of all future leaders of years in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

The 2300 days of the vision of the little horn
The 1260 days of the two witnesses
The 42 months of the beast
The time, times, half time of Satan's wrath
The 1335 days of the great tribulation
The 1290 days of the tribulation of those days
...all have to fit within the 70th week.

 

[keras]

See what happens when you give Douggg the slightest opportunity? He dumps a truckload of gaudy pictures in the thread.
I do not agree with his charts and I know of no one who does.
Dougggs placement of the Sixth Seal when Jesus Returns proves it wrong, as you cannot unroll a scroll before the seals are removed.

The 70th week of the 70 week time prophecy has already been fulfilled as per above.

• The 7 year period cannot be applied to any future end time event, not even the great tribulation.
• The 3 1/2 years of the 7 year period before and after the crucifixion cannot be applied to any future end time event, not even the great tribulation.

This is speculation and error. The 6 tenets stated in Daniel 9:24 remain unfulfilled.
The final 7 years of this age are as described in Revelation, in 3 halves of 3 1/2 years. Yet to come.

However, if we fall off the perch before the Rapture, we will rise first, followed by those still living and enjoy being in the presence of the Lord while the rest of the end time events come to their conclusion.

This common belief of Church people, is not supported by scripture. We never go to heaven, Jesus said so. John 3:13
Eventually God and therefore heaven comes to us. Revelation 21:1-7

 

[DavidPT]

I do not agree with his charts and I know of no one who does.

A lot of us can't even follow some of those charts he makes. I don't know how he reasons in his mind that some of those charts are being helpful to others when some of us can't even make heads nor tails of some of them to begin with. What ever level he is on via this chart making endeavor he has chosen to make part of his interactions with others, some of us are simply not on that level nor care to be. In general, I couldn't care less about charts. I don't find them very helpful to begin with, even simple ones that are easy to follow. Maybe because I'm old school, who knows?

 

[Truth7t7]

(at least during the 1000 year millennium prior to Christ's return to Earth to judge the wicked and setup His kingdom in the New Earth)

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived​

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)?

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ?

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time?

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Truth7t7]

Four details in the video that stand out.

Matt 24:29-31 - the rapture.

1. Rapture takes place "after the tribulation" vs 29.. Consider the option that this fact is a good thing to notice... it is true just as stated.
2. Another point it makes is the 2 Thess 1:6-8 fact that all the lost are destroyed at the appearing of Christ for the rapture.
3. Another point it makes is that the 1 Thess 4:13-18 rapture takes all the saints to heaven

4. And the result is that Jer 4:23-26 condition of the earth desolate, the cities all destroyed by God's wrath alone - and "no humans" left on planet Earth. (at least during the 1000 year millennium prior to Christ's return to Earth to judge the wicked and setup His kingdom in the New Earth)

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"Non Serious" options are of the form : ( The text you just referenced can't mean what it appears to say because if it does mean that then my view of how things end won't work. And oh by the way - unlike all other major events listed in the OP where being wrong matters - it does not matter if my view is correct and you get it wrong)

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Instead of the endless litany of "I refuse to seriously look at any option not already on my agenda" is there even one other person willing to take an objective look at these Bible details and discuss?

I am not saying participants must agree with posts 1 and 2 or the video -- I am asking for serious response to the points and texts made there

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Douggg]

Dougggs placement of the Sixth Seal when Jesus Returns proves it wrong, as you cannot unroll a scroll before the seals are removed.

All of the seals were opened (kjv) from the book (kjv) as John and them in heaven looked on. John wrote what he saw and heard, in what we know as Revelation, last book of the bible. What is not fulfilled is the events revealed when the seals were opened. None of them. Still future.