Let's Talk About Hell (6)

[Sophrosyne]

thats because you believe that souls are destroyed and annihilated. But because a soul is destroyed doesn't mean it ceases to exist. I drive by my car that has been donated to pick and pull every day. Yes it's destroyed, but no it does not cease to exist. Soul can be destroyed in Hell and still be existing to experience the pain.

Just like bad credit can "destroy" your life. Destroy can be considered as severe damage but still operational.

 

[createdtoworship]

Just like bad credit can "destroy" your life. Destroy can be considered as severe damage but still operational.

I am a living conscious example of bad credit destroying one's life....lol

 

[he-man]

Just like bad credit can "destroy" your life. Destroy can be considered as severe damage but still operational.

Sounds like you will miss lighting the LAMP!

Mat 10:28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the Spirit: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both Spirit and body in the grave.

Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Mat 25:10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage:and the door was shut.

11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

 

[createdtoworship]

Sounds like you will miss lighting the LAMP!

Mat 10:28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the Spirit: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both Spirit and body in the grave.

Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Mat 25:10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage:and the door was shut.

11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

as we just showed, with two examples, destruction is not the end of things.

here is another approach:

Matthew 25:46
King James Version (KJV)
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Augustine raised the argument that since Aionios in Matthew 25:46 refers to both life and punishment , it had to carry the same duration in both cases.

You are stuck to believe the duration is relative to whom it is given.

secondly the soul has to be eternal because satan and angels are eternal and it is them that share the experience of Hell with the wicked.

thirdly, the beast and the false prophet are in hell a thousand years in the Revelation. They will be tossed in before the millennium and abide until the end of the 1000 years when Satan is thrown in.

 

[he-man]

as we just showed, with two examples, destruction is not the end of things. Matthew 25:46

46And these shall go away into everlasting penalty: but the righteous into life eternal.
G2851 κόλασις kolasis kol'-as-is From G2849; penal infliction: -
2Th 1:9 Who pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; DARBY WEY GW

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (WEY)
9 They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, being banished from the presence of the Lord and from His glorious majesty,

G3639 ὄλεθρος olethros ol'-eth-ros
From ὄλλυμι ollumi a primary word (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, that is, death, punishment: - destruction.

1Co 5:5 To deliverG3860 such an oneG5108 unto SatanG4567 forG1519 the destruction G3639 of theG3588 flesh,

1Th 5:3 ForG1063 whenG3752 they shall say,G3004 PeaceG1515 andG2532 safety;G803 thenG5119 suddenG160 destruction G3639 cometh uponG2186 them,G846

1Ti 6:9 ButG1161 they that willG1014 be richG4147 fallG1706 intoG1519 temptationG3986 andG2532 a snare,G3803 andG2532 into manyG4183 foolishG453 andG2532 hurtfulG983 lusts,G1939 whichG3748 drownG1036 menG444 inG1519 destruction G3639 andG2532 perdition.G684

 

[he-man]

as we just showed, with two examples, destruction is not the end of things. Matthew 25:46

46And these shall go away into everlasting penalty: but the righteous into life eternal.
G2851 κόλασις kolasis kol'-as-is From G2849; penal infliction: -
2Th 1:9 Who pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; DARBY WEY GW

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (WEY)
9 They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, being banished from the presence of the Lord and from His glorious majesty,

G3639 ὄλεθρος olethros ol'-eth-ros
From ὄλλυμι ollumi a primary word (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, that is, death, punishment: - destruction.

English Words used in KJV:
destruction 4
[Total Count: 4]
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
1Co 5:5 To deliverG3860 such an oneG5108 unto SatanG4567 forG1519 the destruction G3639 of theG3588 flesh,

1Th 5:3 ForG1063 whenG3752 they shall say,G3004 PeaceG1515 andG2532 safety;G803 thenG5119 suddenG160 destruction G3639 cometh uponG2186 them,G846

1Ti 6:9 ButG1161 they that willG1014 be richG4147 fallG1706 intoG1519 temptationG3986 andG2532 a snare,G3803 andG2532 into manyG4183 foolishG453 andG2532 hurtfulG983 lusts,G1939 whichG3748 drownG1036 menG444 inG1519 destruction G3639 andG2532 perdition.G684

 

[createdtoworship]

46And these shall go away into everlasting penalty: but the righteous into life eternal.
G2851 κόλασις kolasis kol'-as-is From G2849; penal infliction: -
2Th 1:9 Who pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; DARBY WEY GW

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (WEY)
9 They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, being banished from the presence of the Lord and from His glorious majesty,

G3639 ὄλεθρος olethros ol'-eth-ros
From ὄλλυμι ollumi a primary word (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, that is, death, punishment: - destruction.

English Words used in KJV:
destruction 4
[Total Count: 4]
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
1Co 5:5 To deliverG3860 such an oneG5108 unto SatanG4567 forG1519 the destruction G3639 of theG3588 flesh,

1Th 5:3 ForG1063 whenG3752 they shall say,G3004 PeaceG1515 andG2532 safety;G803 thenG5119 suddenG160 destruction G3639 cometh uponG2186 them,G846

1Ti 6:9 ButG1161 they that willG1014 be richG4147 fallG1706 intoG1519 temptationG3986 andG2532 a snare,G3803 andG2532 into manyG4183 foolishG453 andG2532 hurtfulG983 lusts,G1939 whichG3748 drownG1036 menG444 inG1519 destruction G3639 andG2532 perdition.G684

none of that defines destruction as being the end of things, just a temporary reorganization.

 

[ImaginaryDay]

The part where is says they are corpses.
No, if a fire is not quenched, that means it is not put out.

I'm just saying what the bible says, the fire was burning corpses, not conscious people.

No, He spoke repeatedly of Gehenna, which is a valley outside of Jerusalem. He never, not once, said that people will go to hell to be tortured forever.

The 'fire that is not put out' is spiritual, not physical. Certainly the bodies (physical) ceased to exist, but we cannot extend this to spiritual existence which is where the fire will never be put out-it will never be quenched and the person will experience ongoing suffering as consequences for rejecting Christ in this life. As for the 'Gehenna' illustration, several sources (that I don't have with me right now,so I need to come back to this point later) indicate this was NOT in fact what Jesus was referring to (i.e. the local Jerusalem 'garbage dump').

 

[Soulgazer]

The 'fire that is not put out' is spiritual, not physical. Certainly the bodies (physical) ceased to exist, but we cannot extend this to spiritual existence which is where the fire will never be put out-it will never be quenched and the person will experience ongoing suffering as consequences for rejecting Christ in this life. As for the 'Gehenna' illustration, several sources (that I don't have with me right now,so I need to come back to this point later) indicate this was NOT in fact what Jesus was referring to (i.e. the local Jerusalem 'garbage dump').

And once that is done, he will sit and pull wings off flies.

 

[Timothew]

The 'fire that is not put out' is spiritual, not physical. Certainly the bodies (physical) ceased to exist, but we cannot extend this to spiritual existence which is where the fire will never be put out-it will never be quenched and the person will experience ongoing suffering as consequences for rejecting Christ in this life. As for the 'Gehenna' illustration, several sources (that I don't have with me right now,so I need to come back to this point later) indicate this was NOT in fact what Jesus was referring to (i.e. the local Jerusalem 'garbage dump').

Well, you just moved the goalposts.
You said:

Wrong. The verse states it quite clearly. "their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched". What part of that suggests they are not conscious of what is happening?

And I answered clearly, I said "the part that says they are corpses," They are dead. Corpses are not conscious of what is happening. What part of being a corpse suggests that the corpse is conscious of what is happening? Remember that you are the one who suggested that Isaiah 66:24 speaks of hell. I'm pointing out that in Isaiah 66 the punished people are dead. This is not the traditional Hell of dead people living in hell being tortured.

 

[he-man]

none of that defines destruction as being the end of things, just a temporary reorganization.

What part of destruction do you not understand? of divine retribution, Ev.Matt.25.46, al.: pl., Pl.Prt.323e, al., Phld.Ir.p.52 W.

46And these shall go away into everlasting penalty: but the righteous into life eternal.
G2851 κόλασις kolasis kol'-as-is From G2849; penal infliction: -
2Th 1:9 Who pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; DARBY WEY GW

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (WEY)
9 They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, being banished from the presence of the Lord and from His glorious majesty,

G3639 ὄλεθρος olethros ol'-eth-ros
From ὄλλυμιollumi a primary word (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, that is, death, punishment: - destruction.

English Words used in KJV:
destruction 4
[Total Count: 4]
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
1Co 5:5 To deliverG3860 such an oneG5108 unto SatanG4567 forG1519 the destruction G3639 of theG3588 flesh,

1Th 5:3 ForG1063 whenG3752 they shall say,G3004 PeaceG1515 andG2532 safety;G803 thenG5119 suddenG160 destruction G3639 cometh uponG2186 them,G846

1Ti 6:9 ButG1161 they that willG1014 be richG4147 fallG1706 intoG1519 temptationG3986 andG2532 a snare,G3803 andG2532into manyG4183 foolishG453 andG2532 hurtfulG983 lusts,G1939 whichG3748 drownG1036 menG444 inG1519 destruction G3639 andG2532 perdition.G684

 

[Christopher0121]

The 'fire that is not put out' is spiritual, not physical. Certainly the bodies (physical) ceased to exist, but we cannot extend this to spiritual existence which is where the fire will never be put out-it will never be quenched and the person will experience ongoing suffering as consequences for rejecting Christ in this life. As for the 'Gehenna' illustration, several sources (that I don't have with me right now,so I need to come back to this point later) indicate this was NOT in fact what Jesus was referring to (i.e. the local Jerusalem 'garbage dump').

It's also important to remember, when it says that a fire shall not be quenched, it doesn't always mean that it will literally burn forever. It also often means that it will continue burning until it has served it's righteous purpose.

2 Kings 22:17
Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be kindled against this place, and shall not be quenched.

​

If God sends the fire of judgment into one's life, it will not be quenched. They cannot stop it. They cannot put it out. It will thoroughly burn until it has completed the role that God sent it to complete.

 

[Soulgazer]

Yes, but that is into ones's life. Nor do I consider the Old Testament to be particularly valid, and perhaps even, never valid. I do not expect you to agree with me, and I am not going to try and convince you, however, I feel I have valid reasons for this standpoint.

 

[Timothew]

Yes, but that is into ones's life. Nor do I consider the Old Testament to be particularly valid, and perhaps even, never valid. I do not expect you to agree with me, and I am not going to try and convince you, however, I feel I have valid reasons for this standpoint.

Interesting. (I have no comment, to agree or not, just - interesting)

 

[Soulgazer]

Interesting. (I have no comment, to agree or not, just - interesting)

Thank you Tim.

 

[createdtoworship]

What part of destruction do you not understand? of divine retribution, Ev.Matt.25.46, al.: pl., Pl.Prt.323e, al., Phld.Ir.p.52 W.
[/SIZE]

you haven't quoted one verse or dictionary where destruction means the "end of things". My car was destroyed at the junk yard, but it still exists. Just reorganized a little.

 

[createdtoworship]

The 'fire that is not put out' is spiritual, not physical.

verses please? Or just opinion?

 

[ImaginaryDay]

verses please? Or just opinion?

Well, to start:

Matthew 25:41 - "Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels".

And again: Matthew 25:45-46 - "He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

I can post more if you'd like, but as I said it's just a start. Remember that the debate is always with the Word of God, not with me. But I like to keep an open mind about these things as well. We learn from each other. God bless.

 

[Soulgazer]

Well, to start:

Matthew 25:41 - "Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels".

And again: Matthew 25:45-46 - "He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

I can post more if you'd like, but as I said it's just a start. Remember that the debate is always with the Word of God, not with me. But I like to keep an open mind about these things as well. We learn from each other. God bless.

The debate is always with the Bible. The word of God is Jesus. Scholars generally agree that the Gospel of Matthew was written by a Jew from Antioch. So he definitely would have meant it in a literal manner, particularly if he were a converted pharisee. They were very literal, heavily into genealogy and law, and never agreed with Paul that Jesus replaced the Law. When this was written, they were still up in arms against Paul's teaching that the Old Covenant was replaced by the new. If you will remember, Antioch was also Paul's HQ.

 

[createdtoworship]

Well, to start:

Matthew 25:41 - "Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels".

And again: Matthew 25:45-46 - "He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

I can post more if you'd like, but as I said it's just a start. Remember that the debate is always with the Word of God, not with me. But I like to keep an open mind about these things as well. We learn from each other. God bless.

Just because spirits are in Hell doesn't make the entire concept of Hell spiritualized. You are confusing two separate definitions of what "spiritual" is. I look at the verses you stated above as an eternal Hell because since angels and spirits are massless, they are eternal. So there fore Hell has to be eternal. Angels aren't physical. But Hell is linked to the physical when men and women are drawn there and can feel physical pain, either some pain is instilled physically or there is a body there too.

The following passage seems to indicate a physical Hell not a spiritual one, so pain is felt literally in their bodies:

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Now granted there is a physical aspect of Hell there is a spiritual aspect to Hell as well, Angels will be there.