Let's say

DZoolander

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you had a son - about 6-7 years old. Let's say you began to notice that he had was developing some very effeminate qualities. All his friends were girls (no boys), his activities were taken up with things like dance, and a variety of other things.

Would you attempt to try and work some more masculine types of things like sports/etc into his life?
 

WolfGate

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6-7? I wouldn't be worried.

Your questions about sports etc. is an interesting one. We exposed both our son and daughter to sports, arts, and a variety of other activities from when they were very young. So I would be exposing him to sports regardless of any traits he showed at that age. Kids go through phases of development anyways and at 6-7 girls are not yet supposed to have cooties and be gross.

Turns out both our kids gravitated towards sports and away from arts or other activities. What makes me smile about that is my daughter is very feminine and very athletic. She is very strong mentally and physically and will be swimming Div 1 in college. So the whole "sports=masculine" line in your post doesn't compute really well with me.
 
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Hetta

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You could certainly ask him if he wanted to play sports, but I would't ever force a kid into sports. Besides, look at Mikhail Baryshnikov. Have you seen that guy dance? And he couldn't be less effeminate.

However, if you're asking whether a boy who you fear might be homosexual can be "re-oriented" by putting him into guy sports, uh, no.
 
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DZoolander

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However, if you're asking whether a boy who you fear might be homosexual can be "re-oriented" by putting him into guy sports, uh, no.

That is kinda the direction that I'm heading with the question, yeah.

To be honest - I've never bought completely into the "nature" part of the equation on how someone ends up being gay. At least not to the extent that people make it out to be. In other words "You've got the gay gene - therefore you will be gay. It's predetermined."

Like everything - I think it's a combination of nature and nurture. I've always believed that everything in life is progressive and linear - with one circumstance defining how the next is interpreted. Experience and reality builds upon previous experience.

That's not to say that I believe that it's *choice* - which is where people often go with these discussions. I don't believe it's a conscious decision whatsoever. But I do believe that what we think is real becomes real - and those beliefs are near impossible to change once set.

That being said - I wonder if a boy who by 6-7 is already being ostracized by boys and is being called a "girl", who has no male friends, etc...is already having the foundation laid for future self perception that may define how he construes himself. I also wonder if doing your best to expose him or socialize him properly with boys might make that course different or impact upon it.
 
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Darkhorse

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I think it's important to familiarize your son with the "expected" sex roles of society (what other people expect), in order to minimize ridicule from others.

I also think it's vital to encourage him to explore his interests in activities that are not stereotypically "masculine", if that's where his interests lie...he just might not talk about it to others.

(This is coming from a guy who painted his fingernails when he was 5 - who doesn't want pretty nails? - and hung around with the girls at recess - they were so nice!)
 
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bluegreysky

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No because when he gets older, some girls will love a man who's sensitive and in touch with his feminine side. My hubby definitely likes some typical "man stuff" but he also had a thing for Japanese culture for awhile, and during that time he owned: an authentic cast iron tea ceremony set, a little short table to serve it on, a big paper fan on the wall and a few things with cherry blossoms on them, one of which he still has- an electric rice cooker with pink flower print on the outside. yes, I have made fun of him for that. no, I did not love him any less.
He has also worn pink and purple shirts, but only because his family gave them to him as a joke (probably because of the tea set). He didn't particularly love them, but he wore them. he's more into nature and science than anything else. he gets excited about seeing a starry night sky but he doesn't care about sports or fishing.
His sister's friends always liked to talk to him, but up until recently he didn't try to make friends at all and only recently has been trying to connect with guys from church.
But I like him that way.
I don't want a man so manly, he
1) is too "rough and tough" to get my sensitive female needs
2) only cares about proving he's manly
3) is always "out with the boys"
4) is obsessed with football, grilling, beer, bros and farts... because that's not my style any more than his style is a material girl who must have the most glamorous, expensive everything....
i know, sounds like a cliche, but I've seriously met a few guys like that.

I wouldn't worry about the young boy liking to dance or having a female best friend. I would watch out for stuff like crushing on another boy obviously...
but if he's gay, he's still going to be gay even if his parents have convinced him to play football, go fishing every weekend and wear camo.
 
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LinkH

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you had a son - about 6-7 years old. Let's say you began to notice that he had was developing some very effeminate qualities. All his friends were girls (no boys), his activities were taken up with things like dance, and a variety of other things.

Would you attempt to try and work some more masculine types of things like sports/etc into his life?

At 6 or 7, they don't go to the mall alone and hang out with a bunch of friends they met at school. You could arrange for the boy to play with another boy if you want him to have male friends, schedule an outing on a weekend, etc. I don't know of Boy Scouts is a good thing to get him in these days if the issue is the boy is acting effeminate. :) Maybe a few years ago.

You can also coach the kids a little on how they say and pronounce stuff, and at that age, he probably won't realize you are pointing out you are addressing his acting effeminate.
 
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Niffer

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6-7, I wouldn't be too worried.
If he wanted to dance, I'd put him in tap (Fred Astaire, anyone?) what other "female activities" are there?
Playing dress up? Cooking/Baking?
The only slightly more effeminate "activity" a child at that age could do is ballet.
That's literally the only slightly-more-feminine activity I could think of.
If he's only friends with girls, I assume it's because he prefers the more mature/sensitive personalities rather than the rough-and-tumble type.

I find it so odd how people keep trying to assign activities or personal preferences depending on gender to children.
I have a little girl who is obsessed with hockey, and hangs out with her 3 male cousins all the time. These cousins, play dress-up, house, imagination games constantly.

No child activity is gender based.
Just child based. ;)
 
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KwanLove

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Although I do not have any children, I can say with certainty that I would not care if my son acted "effeminate" or enjoyed stereotypically "feminine" activities. If he wants to play house and do ballet, I would 100% support him. If he later turned out to be gay, I would continue to support and love him.
 
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DZoolander

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Oh I'm not suggesting not supporting / loving them. I simply don't buy 100% into the idea that it's hardwired.

"Whoops - ya got the gay gene. You're gay." I just don't think it's like that.

I think, like most things in life, it's a combination of both propensity and individual evolutionary circumstance. You are what you think you are, and it's near impossible to change that once it's psychologically set.

With that in mind...if God were to come up to me and say "Hey, you've got a choice. Pick option A to have a heterosexual kid, pick option B to have a gay one" - I'd pick A (all else being equal) 10 times out of 10. Why? Because there's something to be said for having grandkids, there's something to be said for having one less reason for people to be bigoted toward you, etc. That's what I'd pick. Does that mean I would not love them, treat them differently, etc...if they were gay? No.

But if the option were there to "coax it along" before it's set (and I do believe that there is a period in your life where sexual orientation is unset and undefined) - sure. Why not? lol
 
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mkgal1

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I'm just not seeing the connection of activities and sexual attraction.

I have a daughter (who is a petite size 4....and her profession is hair stylist) but she loves fast cars (and knows a lot of the mechanics) and driving big trucks, and power lifts a lot more weight than a lot of men. She's still attracted to men. It never crossed my mind that she wouldn't be if she indulged in these activities/interests. In fact....her "idol" is Christmas Abbott (also not gay)....but she is an Olympic lifter.... and part of the team of a NASCAR pit crew.

 
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KwanLove

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I'm just not seeing the connection of activities and sexual attraction.

I have a daughter (who is a petite size 4....and her profession is hair stylist) but she loves fast cars (and knows a lot of the mechanics) and driving big trucks, and power lifts a lot more weight than a lot of men. She's still attracted to men. It never crossed my mind that she wouldn't be if she indulged in these activities/interests. In fact....her "idol" is Christmas Abbott (also not gay)....but she is an Olympic lifter.... and part of the team of a NASCAR pit crew.


I agree. I don't think childhood activities influence sexual orientation one way or another. Sure, a boy MIGHT be inclined to more feminine activities if he's gay (but even what's defined as feminine is completely arbitrary), but plenty of boys also did girly things as young children and ended up heterosexual. I have two younger brothers. As kids, we spent all sorts of time playing Barbies, dress-up, and I'd even put makeup on them. Both are heterosexual.

I want to expose my future children to all kinds of activities when they're young, and I want them to pursue whichever ones they enjoy most, regardless of whether the activity is considered to be "masculine or "feminine."
 
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Tropical Wilds

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The only aspect that would worry me is the potential for bullying. Other than that, I'd nurture whatever interest he has. I remember the pressure I got to stop playing with boy-aimed toys when I was his age... I was enthralled by dark, morbid, creepy things and there was no "Monster High" or similar off-beat things aimed for girls. So I played with He-Man and Monster-in-my-Pocket, Dino Riders, Monster Boulders, and thousands of other creepy toys aimed at boys. My parents didn't care but my Grandmother insisted that would make me a lesbian. She was hard on me for it, even to a point where she hid my Swamp Thing toys.

While she was trying to keep me from being a Tomboy lesbian, what she actually succeeded in doing was being the first adult I thought truly was doing things simply to hurt and be mean and it compromised our relationship. The long-term ramifications of that lasted longer than my interest in the toys... And, hindsight being 20/20, my interest in those toys didn't mean I was a lesbian, it meant I was interested in offbeat and unusual things and my using those toys identified the gap in children's toys for girls at the time... Boys got the cool stuff, we got the dolls and the puzzles and cooking sets. Even as a kid, I saw girl toys as poorly disgused as practice for being an adult while the boy stuff was mindless fun.

With a group of boys in my house, one of whom still secretly plays with Elsa dolls, I don't see it as something to worry about. He loves pretty girls and he likes to nurture things and people he loves and he's really curious about the concept of magic. He plays with Elsa dolls because there are no toys aimed at boys that allow him to play with and grow with those concepts. I don't think his interest extends beyond that.

Though ultimately, if it did, I wouldn't care. As long as he's safe at school and in public, he can be a boys boy, a boy who likes girl toys, gay, straight, or the next Caitlyn Jenner. If we could all be so lucky as to know ourselves that clearly as children.
 
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Niffer

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That being said, do I avoid interests or activities that are more "male" oriented?
My interests are what they are - I can equally love baking, and giant monster movies, needlepoint and auto-body painting and detailing.
If my own interests are so varied, how could I oppose my child feeling the same?
 
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DZoolander

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To me, it's an interesting topic, but unfortunately it's fraught with (and has been overtaken by) people's political agendas. On one side you have the "Christians" with their treatment of gays as if they're the penultimate sinners, with their talk of "lifestyle choices", repairative therapies, etc...all of which are destructive and can be ruinous on people's lives. This side WANTS to treat it like a choice for their own political ends/reasons.

On the other side - defending themselves - you have the group that WANTS it to be hardwired. After all - if it's hardwired - then the other side needs to shut up about it. God doesn't make mistakes, ya know, and they were wired that way.

My stance is - it's nobody's business what consenting people of legal age do with themselves and God has far bigger things to worry about than how people choose to rub their pink bits. But - unfortunately it can't be that way - so both sides latch to the "truth" that they want to.

Personally, I don't think it's either one. I think there may be genetic components to it, predispositions, etc...but I also believe that most things in life are the consequence of individual evolution. We are the summation of our experiences, each building upon the last. Kind of like the "moth beats it's wings over here, consequently there's a hurricane in China" type of thing. Life is nothing but one giant butterfly effect.

I do think there was a time when I was no-sexual-orientation. I don't think I was straight out of the womb. I don't think I was "straight" when I was toddling around for the first time. I don't think I was "straight" when I was learning about magnifying glasses and ants at 4 years old. Sexual orientation and everything involved was the furthest thing from my reality. I wasn't looking around and thinking "Let's fry that ant" - and then contemplating what some burgeoning desire to look at boobs was. That didn't come until later. So, I think there was a portion of my life where I was utterly asexual/void of sexual orientation.

To that end - I think often sexual orientation probably is a culmination of experiences leading to self perception that is near impossible to change once set. It's part of their identity. But - that doesn't change the fact that at some point I think it's malleable and undefined...and I wonder if it can be influenced.

I suppose you could go into the argument "Ought you try and influence it" - which I agree can be dangerous...because often people are emotionally tied to the outcome and it can become a destructive thing. That's a worthwhile discussion to be had. But my point of view is more along the lines of "Both are okay, although I do have a preference all else being equal." Meaning - I wouldn't love the child any less, or subject them to any sort of trauma, but if God were to give me a scantron and say "Pick A for hetero, pick B for gay", I'd pick A/hetero 10 times out of 10, once again, all else being equal.

Back to this kid - and the "summation of their experiences" stuff - I think about his growth.

When he was born/a toddler - the parents thought it was cute to let his hair grow and not get it cut until he was 4 years old. At 4, the reason he got it cut was not because the parents thought he ought to, but because he was coming home crying from school every day due to boys telling him that he was a girl.

So I wonder - is it any mystery why he started associating with girls at the start? Boys were unpleasant to be around - and made his life miserable. His having no boys as friends is a conditioned response that began very early - and has built upon itself.

At some point - boys will start questioning whether or not he's gay - and they will make sure he knows it. Girls, in the attempt to engender themselves to those boys will probably question it as well. Being his friends, he will probably be asked to account for those things, and be supported in a friendly way "whatever his decision or inclination is". Most likely those thoughts will be lodged into his head at a malleable age - before one ought contemplate it.

He will think "I am different from other guys", and will weigh those types of things into the equation. I think that's probably where "I knew I was gay since I was 5 years old" comes from. It's not so much sexual orientation -but rather awareness that there was a "difference".

...etc...etc...etc.

I think that's how life compounds upon itself. Does it mean that he will be gay? No. But, I don't think it makes sense to discount those types of environmental evolutionary steps either. Treat someone like he's a jackass from an early enough age, he'll be a jackass. Tell someone they're worthless from a young enough age, they'll believe they're worthless. Tell someone they're great from an early age, they'll believe they're great. Treat someone as you'd like them to be, and that's what they'll become.

Ya know?
 
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HannahT

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My son was surrounded by mostly my daughter's girlfriends when he was that young. They don't get the 'pink and blue' deal right away. He will figure it out! My son didn't really fall into anything full force until maybe 4-5th grade. We saw it before that, but he never gave it any never mind himself.

I remember once my son was UP in her room with another girlfriend, and the H and were watching the news. They came down to announce that they were giving us a fashion show. The two girls came out with their outfits, and they dressed him up in a tutu with tights! lol he was SOOO proud, and we tried really hard not to giggle.

lol I drew the line when his sister painted his nails! He got upset, and I said, 'Okay...toes only!" (snickers - what are socks for right?!)

He is turning 19 soon, and he is all boy! His father and I even commented on his choice of girls, because he seems to attract the cuties! He wants to go into Engineering, and end up in the Air Force. Talks about meeting that someone special, and having children within 10 years.

Yes, he was somewhat influenced by the girls. Our neighborhood has tiny babies or teenagers, and no one really his age. Once he got older male friends started to show up, and now? I would say the kids have entourages. They don't go just go out with a friend - its more like 6-7 that show up at the house here...and then they leave. OR stay here to do their thing.

In the meantime? Let him help with lawnwork, shoveling snow, take him to a ballgame, or see if he is into dinosaurs! Talk to him about how to handle bullies, and regular folk too. I tried very hard to keep an open mind, and bit my lip when the kids asked me questions that came OUT of the blue and I was very uncomfortable with. If I freaked out, or scolded them, or started to preach right away? They will ask someone else the next time. That wasn't going to happen. I found if you shut up long enough you they will tell you how this line of thinking started, etc. After all these years? I have heard some hum dingers let me tell YOU!

Just be someone he can count on, and you will both be fine!
 
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beaverpond

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I don't have a son, but my neighbors do and he is in this age bracket. He has done dance, he likes to play with his sisters dolls, he has done gymnastics. However, he also does play soccer, baseball, and loves playing with his legos and GI Joes.

At first I thought it was odd, but not so much anymore once I saw him doing things that boys like to do as well. That is when I realized it was part of growing up. I asked my Mom if I ever did that at that age and she said I was more into outdoor activities no matter what time of the year it was including crashing through windows. Yup still have the scars to this day for that one. Although my sister was the same way...everything was outside as well. Except with my sister, her thing was putting rocks and bats through windows instead of her body...not as daring as I was.
 
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