Let's Define Bishops, Saints, & Deacons once and For all?

[Linet Kihonge]

Let's start with saying, "I have nothing against anyone, I just have something against terms used." I think the scripture says something else.

Anyway, feel free to refuse everything I will pull up from KJV.

Glorious
KJV
2 Corinthians 4:4, "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

NIV
2 Corinthians 4:4, "The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

KJV
1 Timothy 1:11, "According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

Saints
KJV
Philipians 1:1, "Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi,..."

KJV
1 Corinthians 6:1-2, "Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

NIV
1 Corinthians 6:1-2, "If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord's people?

Bishop

KJV
1 Timothy 3:1-2, "This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Titus 1:6-7, "If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. 7For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;

NIV

Titus 1:6-7, "An elder must be blameless, faithful to his wife, a man whose children believeb and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. 7Since an overseer manages God’s household, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain."

Deacons

KJV

1 Timothy 3: 12-13, "Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

 

[Albion]

Differences in church administration (polity) aren't actually "controversial theology" as it's meant for this forum. It's not Preterism, Annihilationism, Universalism, etc.

" This is a forum for discussion and debate of unorthodox, non-Nicene Christian theology."

 

[Linet Kihonge]

I'm sorry, I wasn't sure of that...? Kindly, offer any assistance

 

[Albion]

Others have made that mistake, I suppose because all sorts are things are 'controversial' to some degree. It was meant just as a helpful hint. At this point, you could repost in General Theology or else let it go and see if the moderators choose to move it on their own.

 

[Wgw]

Well, here we go:

A saint:

View media item 53720
A bishop:

View media item 53728
A deacon:

View media item 53727

 

[Wgw]

The saint it should be noted is a glorified bishop, in this case; note the omophorion.

 

[DamianWarS]

Let's start with saying, "I have nothing against anyone, I just have something against terms used." I think the scripture says something else.

Anyway, feel free to refuse everything I will pull up from KJV.

Glorious
KJV
2 Corinthians 4:4, "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

NIV
2 Corinthians 4:4, "The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

KJV
1 Timothy 1:11, "According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

Saints
KJV
Philipians 1:1, "Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi,..."

KJV
1 Corinthians 6:1-2, "Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

NIV
1 Corinthians 6:1-2, "If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord's people?

Bishop

KJV
1 Timothy 3:1-2, "This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Titus 1:6-7, "If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. 7For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;

NIV

Titus 1:6-7, "An elder must be blameless, faithful to his wife, a man whose children believeb and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. 7Since an overseer manages God’s household, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain."

Deacons

KJV

1 Timothy 3: 12-13, "Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

The church has had a habit of making religious words and titles to unscriptural levels. There is nothing inherently holy about Greek or Latin words yet it is quite common to see those words in christian groups and whether intentional or not they tend to miss the point. They miss the point because these words mean something but using an unknown language for titles turns them abstract and strips their common meaning from them.

For example "bishop" is the anglicized version of the Latin episcopus which is from the Greek episkopos which is a common word that means "overseer". There is nothing inherently spiritual about it so why have we made it uncommon? This goes on: Pastor means shepard, Deacon means servant, apostle means messenger and even bible means book. Common words that we have spiritualized and unnaturally elevated. Saint is about the only word that does carry a holy meaning and continues to carry that somewhat today but it is intended for all believers not just a select few.

I think generally there needs to be a wide sweep of de-emphasizing these extra-biblical values. The church started very simple and we have over complicated it and using special holy titles has negatively contributed to this.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

I think generally there needs to be a wide sweep of de-emphasizing these extra-biblical values. The church started very simple and we have over complicated it and using special holy titles has negatively contributed to this.

My point exactly, I'm sure I read, glorious Peter and Paul in another message? I could almost "swear" I saw that and I'm thinking if some of these apostles would come back to earth, read some of the titles given to them; they would rebuke Christians till Kingdom Come. Not because they are not good titles but because Peter himself hated the notion of being crucified like Christ and he would hate anything that could seem to take that title entitled to God. Their humility was correct not ignorant.

 

[Wgw]

The church has had a habit of making religious words and titles to unscriptural levels. There is nothing inherently holy about Greek or Latin words yet it is quite common to see those words in christian groups and whether intentional or not they tend to miss the point. They miss the point because these words mean something but using an unknown language for titles turns them abstract and strips their common meaning from them.

For example "bishop" is the anglicized version of the Latin episcopus which is from the Greek episkopos which is a common word that means "overseer". There is nothing inherently spiritual about it so why have we made it uncommon? This goes on: Pastor means shepard, Deacon means servant, apostle means messenger and even bible means book. Common words that we have spiritualized and unnaturally elevated. Saint is about the only word that does carry a holy meaning and continues to carry that somewhat today but it is intended for all believers not just a select few.

I think generally there needs to be a wide sweep of de-emphasizing these extra-biblical values. The church started very simple and we have over complicated it and using special holy titles has negatively contributed to this.

Well, in the Orthodox Church, Bishops are overseers, and Priests are elders. This is what episkopos and presbyteros mean. These happened to be translated into English using certain words.

I disagree that the Church is overcomplicated owing to its hierarchy; we have had bishops, priests and deacons since the first century. One could hypothetically object to certain ranks of these clerics (archbishops, metropolitans, chorepiscopi, patriarchs, protopresbyters, archpriests, archimandrites, protodeacons) as being extra-Biblical, but I am disinclined to do this.

 

[DamianWarS]

Well, in the Orthodox Church, Bishops are overseers, and Priests are elders. This is what episkopos and presbyteros mean. These happened to be translated into English using certain words.

I disagree that the Church is overcomplicated owing to its hierarchy; we have had bishops, priests and deacons since the first century. One could hypothetically object to certain ranks of these clerics (archbishops, metropolitans, chorepiscopi, patriarchs, protopresbyters, archpriests, archimandrites, protodeacons) as being extra-Biblical, but I am disinclined to do this.

The role clearly is biblical but the title is more biblically themed after greek. I'll use the example of "Bishop". It is a religious word used exclusively for a religious and even invented for a religious use but outside that context it is meaningless.

To the typical unchurched observers (or churched) they are unaware of the original meaning of the word and to them it is abstract spiritual jargon that has something to do with people wearing funny hats. To responsibly represent this role in English as the 1st century church did an actual translation of the word would be better than an English version of a Greek word.

This one example is over complicated because a child can tell you what an "overseer" is but may be confused as to what a bishop even is. So why gravitate to the complex abstract words when we can just use "overseer". What is the value of using spiritual jargon over the simple biblical way the word is presented? Unless we are all greek what's the point?

 

[Wgw]

The role clearly is biblical but the title is more biblically themed after greek. I'll use the example of "Bishop". It is a religious word used exclusively for a religious and even invented for a religious use but outside that context it is meaningless.

To the typical unchurched observers (or churched) they are unaware of the original meaning of the word and to them it is abstract spiritual jargon that has something to do with people wearing funny hats. To responsibly represent this role in English as the 1st century church did an actual translation of the word would be better than an English version of a Greek word.

This one example is over complicated because a child can tell you what an "overseer" is but may be confused as to what a bishop even is. So why gravitate to the complex abstract words when we can just use "overseer". What is the value of using spiritual jargon over the simple biblical way the word is presented? Unless we are all greek what's the point?

It's fairly obvious in the Orthodox Church to figure out that bishops are overseers. It would not take a man of great erudition to come to this realization; it should be obvious in a hierarchical liturgy as soon as we start singing "Many years to you, O Master."

 

[Albion]

The role clearly is biblical but the title is more biblically themed after greek. I'll use the example of "Bishop". It is a religious word used exclusively for a religious and even invented for a religious use but outside that context it is meaningless.

To the typical unchurched observers (or churched) they are unaware of the original meaning of the word and to them it is abstract spiritual jargon that has something to do with people wearing funny hats. To responsibly represent this role in English as the 1st century church did an actual translation of the word would be better than an English version of a Greek word.

This one example is over complicated because a child can tell you what an "overseer" is but may be confused as to what a bishop even is. So why gravitate to the complex abstract words when we can just use "overseer". What is the value of using spiritual jargon over the simple biblical way the word is presented? Unless we are all greek what's the point?

I get your point and I have some sympathy with it, but OTOH, every Christian church uses specialized language for all sorts of things. I hardly think that there's anything wrong with this, not any more than the fact that we call our police officers, elected city officials, and even labor union officers by titles or terms specific to them.

If the word used were terribly pretentious or something like that, the use might be inadvisable, but "bishop," "deacon," and "presbyter" don't seem that way--not any more than "pastor," "Apostle," or "Evangelist," when you think about it.

 

[Wgw]

I get your point and I have some sympathy with it, but OTOH, every Christian church uses specialized language for all sorts of things. I hardly think that there's anything wrong with this, not any more than the fact that we call our police officers, elected city officials, and even labor union officers by titles or terms specific to them.

If the word used were terribly pretentious or something like that, the use might be inadvisable, but "bishop," "deacon," and "presbyter" don't seem that way--not any more than "pastor," "Apostle," or "Evangelist," when you think about it.

Using "Apostle" is pretentious. I believe any alleged church which has an office of "Apostle" can be regarded as a heretical cult on that basis alone.

 

[timewerx]

Let's start with saying, "I have nothing against anyone, I just have something against terms used." I think the scripture says something else.

Anyway, feel free to refuse everything I will pull up from KJV.

Glorious
KJV
2 Corinthians 4:4, "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

NIV
2 Corinthians 4:4, "The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

KJV
1 Timothy 1:11, "According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

Saints
KJV
Philipians 1:1, "Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi,..."

KJV
1 Corinthians 6:1-2, "Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

NIV
1 Corinthians 6:1-2, "If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord's people?

Bishop

KJV
1 Timothy 3:1-2, "This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Titus 1:6-7, "If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. 7For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;

NIV

Titus 1:6-7, "An elder must be blameless, faithful to his wife, a man whose children believeb and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. 7Since an overseer manages God’s household, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain."

Deacons

KJV

1 Timothy 3: 12-13, "Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

First notice how these verse were all written by Apostle Paul....

At that time, the early church is already showing signs of trouble.

They were like impatient children tugging on Paul, pressuring him to do something.

Paul, like Moses had to do something.... But of course, we do not follow the laws of Moses, but how come we follow Paul's instructions??

 

[Albion]

Using "Apostle" is pretentious. I believe any alleged church which has an office of "Apostle" can be regarded as a heretical cult on that basis alone.

Actually, I had in mind the word itself which, as you know, has a much plainer meaning in the original language, not unlike overseer or servant.

 

[DamianWarS]

I get your point and I have some sympathy with it, but OTOH, every Christian church uses specialized language for all sorts of things. I hardly think that there's anything wrong with this, not any more than the fact that we call our police officers, elected city officials, and even labor union officers by titles or terms specific to them.

If the word used were terribly pretentious or something like that, the use might be inadvisable, but "bishop," "deacon," and "presbyter" don't seem that way--not any more than "pastor," "Apostle," or "Evangelist," when you think about it.

The words are disengaged from non-church culture and can contribute to estranging ourselves with our mission. Their "holy greek theme" misses the point of the gospel message where their original counterparts translated from were mostly common every day words.

We cannot honour tradition at the expense of our mission. Spiritualizing words and making them uncommon when they came from a common source is pretentious and irresponsible to the source. These should be consider negotiable values and we should be able to lessen our grip when the gospel is negatively effected.

These words are unfortunately steeped in church tradition and probably impractical to remove but I believe a general call to deemphasize extra-biblical values in the church is in order.

 

[Wgw]

To the extent they are steeped in church tradition, they are impossible to remove. Tradition has the force of legislation (Canon 73 of St. Basil).

 

[Albion]

The words are disengaged from non-church culture and can contribute to estranging ourselves with our mission. Their "holy greek theme" misses the point of the gospel message where their original counterparts translated from were mostly common every day words.

There's a chance that's so, but my personal opinion is that this plays a very small part in any estrangement. Some other things about organized religion have made people uncomfortable--some of which I'd defend and some of which I might agree ought to be toned down--but on this particular issue....no, I think the claim is a stretch.

 

[DamianWarS]

To the extent they are steeped in church tradition, they are impossible to remove. Tradition has the force of legislation (Canon 73 of St. Basil).

Which is why I don't say remove but instead deemphasized. If there is a chance that it limits the reach of the gospel and we choose to still uphold the tradition than what essentially are we valuing more tradition or the gospel? Why cling to non-essentials when there is a "chance" of it limiting the gospel. That's not a position I'm comfortable defending,

 

[Linet Kihonge]

Okay Bishops and Deacons can only be contested if the positions hold a pious or extra-religious attitude that it becomes more important to "look like" a faithful servant of the Lord than to be a Faithful servant.

Sometimes religious is not necessarily holy but being holy can look religious. ...Most mainstream churches have lost it completely!!! Ask me, I have seen it first hand.