Law, Flesh—Grace, Spirit

WordSword

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Concerning Israel and her relation to the land it is written: “trust in the lord, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land”; “The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein forever”; “For the upright shall dwell in the land’ (Psa 37:3, 29; Pro 2:21).

No land had been given to the Christian. He is a “stranger and “pilgrim” here, an “ambassador” (Eph 6:20), a citizen of heaven. If he is taught in the Scriptures, he is not looking for a long life here; but he is looking for the coming of the Lord Jesus. He is not clinging to this life, for “to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better (Phl 1:23).

The serious manner in which people apply to themselves an OT promise, impossible under grace, is a revelation of the measure of inattention with which the Scriptures are too often read and quoted. Since every adaptable precept of the Law is restated in grace, it is not necessary to violate the Scriptures by forcing the Law into the sphere of grace (many trust more in their works and less in God’s grace for “forgiveness”; but this is just a babe-in-Christ maturity—NC). The Decalogue, in its moral principles, is not only restated in grace, but its principles are greatly amplified (because of the indwelling of the Spirit—NC).

This is illustrated, again, by the same precept concerning the obedience of children. In the teachings of grace, the whole issue of obedience is taking up at length, and to this is added the instructions to parents as well. Under the teachings of grace (in the NT—NC), the appeal to the first commandment is repeated no less than fifty times, the second twelve times, the third four times, the forth (about the Sabbath day) not at all, the fifth six times, the sixth six times, the seventh twelve times, the eighth six times, the ninth four times, and the tenth nine times.

Yet further, that which is even more vital should be noted. The teachings of grace are not only gracious in character and of the very nature of heaven itself, but they are extended to cover the entire range of the new issues of the life and service of the Christian. The 10 commandments required no life of prayer, no Christian service, no evangelism, no missionary outreach, no gospel preaching, no life and walk in the Spirit, no Fatherhood of God (just a “people of God”—NC), no union with Christ, no fellowship of Christians and no hope of heaven (restored Israel inherits the New Earth—NC).

If it is asserted that we have all these because we have both law and grace, it is replied that the law adds nothing to grace but confusion and contradiction (the law isn’t confusing unless attempting to melled it with the teachings of grace—NC), and that there is the most faithful warning in the Scriptures against that admixture (Ro 6:14b; 11:6).

A few times the teachings of the law are referred to by writers of the Epistles by way of illustration. Having stated the obligation under grace, they cite the fact that this is the same principle obtained under the law. There is, however, no basis here for a comingling of these two governing systems. The Law of Moses presents a covenant of works to be wrought in the energy of the flesh (carnal ordinances - Heb 9:10—NC); the teachings of grace presents a covenant of faith to be wrought in the energy of the Spirit!


—L S Chafer (1881-1952)




Poster’s Note: A Jew could obey the Decalogue but not trust in God. The obedience would gain the unbeliever physical blessings, but unbelief in the sin sacrifice of the priest prevented God’s forgiveness; for forgiveness came only by faith in the sin sacrifices of the priests (Num 15:25), and not by obedience to the Decalogue!





MJS daily devotional for January 9


“The world, the flesh, and the devil say, Be powerful. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit say, Be powerless — “for My strength is made perfect in [your] weakness” (2 Cor. 12:9). -MJS

“There would be little harm in trying to imitate Christ if such an endeavor did not hide from us what our Lord really desires; and so keep us back from ‘life more abundant.’ Christ has come Himself into our hearts to dwell there, and what He wants is to live His life in us, as the Apostle Paul says, ‘For to me to live is Christ.’ Christ was the very source and mainspring of all he was and did. What a wonderful thing this is! We would be driven to despair if Christ had simply left us an example to follow or imitate, for we have no power within ourselves to do it. We must have a new source—a new spring of action, and Christ Himself wants to be just that for us.” -E.C.H.
 

Soyeong

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Concerning Israel and her relation to the land it is written: “trust in the lord, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land”; “The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein forever”; “For the upright shall dwell in the land’ (Psa 37:3, 29; Pro 2:21).

No land had been given to the Christian. He is a “stranger and “pilgrim” here, an “ambassador” (Eph 6:20), a citizen of heaven. If he is taught in the Scriptures, he is not looking for a long life here; but he is looking for the coming of the Lord Jesus. He is not clinging to this life, for “to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better (Phl 1:23).

The serious manner in which people apply to themselves an OT promise, impossible under grace, is a revelation of the measure of inattention with which the Scriptures are too often read and quoted. Since every adaptable precept of the Law is restated in grace, it is not necessary to violate the Scriptures by forcing the Law into the sphere of grace (many trust more in their works and less in God’s grace for “forgiveness”; but this is just a babe-in-Christ maturity—NC). The Decalogue, in its moral principles, is not only restated in grace, but its principles are greatly amplified (because of the indwelling of the Spirit—NC).

This is illustrated, again, by the same precept concerning the obedience of children. In the teachings of grace, the whole issue of obedience is taking up at length, and to this is added the instructions to parents as well. Under the teachings of grace (in the NT—NC), the appeal to the first commandment is repeated no less than fifty times, the second twelve times, the third four times, the forth (about the Sabbath day) not at all, the fifth six times, the sixth six times, the seventh twelve times, the eighth six times, the ninth four times, and the tenth nine times.

Yet further, that which is even more vital should be noted. The teachings of grace are not only gracious in character and of the very nature of heaven itself, but they are extended to cover the entire range of the new issues of the life and service of the Christian. The 10 commandments required no life of prayer, no Christian service, no evangelism, no missionary outreach, no gospel preaching, no life and walk in the Spirit, no Fatherhood of God (just a “people of God”—NC), no union with Christ, no fellowship of Christians and no hope of heaven (restored Israel inherits the New Earth—NC).

If it is asserted that we have all these because we have both law and grace, it is replied that the law adds nothing to grace but confusion and contradiction (the law isn’t confusing unless attempting to melled it with the teachings of grace—NC), and that there is the most faithful warning in the Scriptures against that admixture (Ro 6:14b; 11:6).

A few times the teachings of the law are referred to by writers of the Epistles by way of illustration. Having stated the obligation under grace, they cite the fact that this is the same principle obtained under the law. There is, however, no basis here for a comingling of these two governing systems. The Law of Moses presents a covenant of works to be wrought in the energy of the flesh (carnal ordinances - Heb 9:10—NC); the teachings of grace presents a covenant of faith to be wrought in the energy of the Spirit!


—L S Chafer (1881-1952)




Poster’s Note: A Jew could obey the Decalogue but not trust in God. The obedience would gain the unbeliever physical blessings, but unbelief in the sin sacrifice of the priest prevented God’s forgiveness; for forgiveness came only by faith in the sin sacrifices of the priests (Num 15:25), and not by obedience to the Decalogue!





MJS daily devotional for January 9


“The world, the flesh, and the devil say, Be powerful. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit say, Be powerless — “for My strength is made perfect in [your] weakness” (2 Cor. 12:9). -MJS

“There would be little harm in trying to imitate Christ if such an endeavor did not hide from us what our Lord really desires; and so keep us back from ‘life more abundant.’ Christ has come Himself into our hearts to dwell there, and what He wants is to live His life in us, as the Apostle Paul says, ‘For to me to live is Christ.’ Christ was the very source and mainspring of all he was and did. What a wonderful thing this is! We would be driven to despair if Christ had simply left us an example to follow or imitate, for we have no power within ourselves to do it. We must have a new source—a new spring of action, and Christ Himself wants to be just that for us.” -E.C.H.
Grace is a gift and gifts can't be earned, so grace is incompatible with works insofar as they are done to earn a wage (Romans 11:6), however, there can be any number of reasons for doing works other than in order to earn a wage that are compatible with grace, which is why there are many verses that connect grace and works. For example in Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law.
 
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WordSword

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Grace is a gift and gifts can't be earned, so grace is incompatible with works insofar as they are done to earn a wage (Romans 11:6), however, there can be any number of reasons for doing works other than in order to earn a wage that are compatible with grace, which is why there are many verses that connect grace and works. For example in Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law.
Hi, and like your reply! Under the Law, God's people gained physical blessings by obeying the Law; but the spiritual blessing of God's forgiveness (accept willful sins - v30) came only by faith in the priests sin sacrifices (Num 15:25).

This forgiveness is from His grace, if the works were continued, otherwise disobedience was cursed. Thus, the only way to be blessed was by works and faith. Now, it's all grace, and instead of blessings by works it's blessings by faith; and the works are out of love for God's blessings. So there was works and Law; and now grace and faith!
 
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Soyeong

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Hi, and like your reply! Under the Law, God's people gained physical blessings by obeying the Law; but the spiritual blessing of God's forgiveness (accept willful sins - v30) came only by faith in the priests sin sacrifices (Num 15:25).

This forgiveness is from His grace, if the works were continued, otherwise disobedience was cursed. Thus, the only way to be blessed was by works and faith. Now, it's all grace, and instead of blessings by works it's blessings by faith; and the works are out of love for God's blessings. So there was works and Law; and now grace and faith!
I get it you are trying to transition from law to grace and faith, but you are neglecting to address Psalms 119:29-30, were he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so they are all right there together, and that is the way that it has always been.

In Proverbs 3:5-7, we have a choice between learning on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes or trusting in God with all of our heart to correctly divide between right and wrong by obeying His law in all of our ways and He will make our way straight, and again this is what it means to have faith and the way that God is gracious to us. It is contradictory to have faith in God, but not in what He has instructed.
 
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WordSword

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I get it you are trying to transition from law to grace and faith, but you are neglecting to address Psalms 119:29-30, were he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law
Like what you said, but what I mean is that is all they had was the Law. But now the Law (primarily the Decalogue) being "taken away" (Heb 10:9), all that remains is Grace. No more good works for salvation like the OT but good works manifesting love to God.
 
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Jan001

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Like what you said, but what I mean is that is all they had was the Law. But now the Law (primarily the Decalogue) being "taken away" (Heb 10:9), all that remains is Grace. No more good works for salvation like the OT but good works manifesting love to God.
We will be judged solely by our works on Judgment Day. Jesus will not ask us if we believe in Him. Jesus will not ask us if we accept Him as our personal Savior. Jesus will judge us by the works that we have done and that is how He knows if we truly believed in Him.

Mathew 25:31-46

Matthew 21:43 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Luke 3:9 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”
 
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WordSword

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We will be judged solely by our works on Judgment Day. Jesus will not ask us if we believe in Him. Jesus will not ask us if we accept Him as our personal Savior. Jesus will judge us by the works that we have done and that is how He knows if we truly believed in Him.


2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
Concerning 2Co 5:10, the saints lives and works will be considered as "good." The unbelievers lives and works will be considered "bad."

"That everyone may receive the things done in his body;" which he has performed by the members of the body as instruments thereof, or whatsoever he has done whilst in the body; and so this not only reaches to words and actions, but includes all the secret thoughts of the mind, and counsels of the heart, which will be made manifest: and when it is said, that "everyone shall receive" these; the meaning is, that he shall receive the reward of them,

"According to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad;" 'the reward of good works will be of grace, and not of merit: good works will be considered at the last judgment, not as causes of eternal life and happiness, to which the saints will be adjudged; but will be produced in open court as fruits of grace, and as evidences of the truth of faith, which will justify the Judge in proceeding according to what He himself, as a Savior, has said'.
Luke 3:9 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”
Only unbelievers will be cut and burned! Concerning "works," to the saved, works are not what saves but what manifests gratitude and love for God. Only faith in the Lord Jesus' expiation for our sins saves! Good works of the believers in the OT were required for blessings; but faith in the sin sacrifices of the priest for sin is what established "forgiveness" (Num 15:25); unless their sins were "presumptuous" (intentional) - v 30.
 
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Jan001

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Concerning 2Co 5:10, the saints lives and works will be considered as "good." The unbelievers lives and works will be considered "bad."

An unbeliever is any person who does not obey God's commandments. A person who claims he believes in Jesus but does not obey His commandments is a liar and he will not inherit eternal life.

1 John 3:10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

1 John 2:4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.


Hebrews 4:6-7
Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted: “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.”

1 Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.



What happens to these liars, the people who claim to believe in God but choose to disobey His commandments?

Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liarsthey will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”



"That everyone may receive the things done in his body;" which he has performed by the members of the body as instruments thereof, or whatsoever he has done whilst in the body; and so this not only reaches to words and actions, but includes all the secret thoughts of the mind, and counsels of the heart, which will be made manifest: and when it is said, that "everyone shall receive" these; the meaning is, that he shall receive the reward of them,

"According to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad;" 'the reward of good works will be of grace, and not of merit: good works will be considered at the last judgment, not as causes of eternal life and happiness, to which the saints will be adjudged; but will be produced in open court as fruits of grace, and as evidences of the truth of faith, which will justify the Judge in proceeding according to what He himself, as a Savior, has said'.

Only unbelievers will be cut and burned! Concerning "works," to the saved, works are not what saves but what manifests gratitude and love for God. Only faith in the Lord Jesus' expiation for our sins saves! Good works of the believers in the OT were required for blessings; but faith in the sin sacrifices of the priest for sin is what established "forgiveness" (Num 15:25); unless their sins were "presumptuous" (intentional) - v 30.
It is our faith and the good works that we do for others which save us. The good works that we do for God and our neighbors prove that we have faith in God.

Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

Jesus states that the people who do not do good works will be condemned to hellfire. I believe Him. :)

Matthew 25:31-46

The Sheep and the Goats

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
 
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WordSword

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An unbeliever is any person who does not obey God's commandments. A person who claims he believes in Jesus but does not obey His commandments is a liar and he will not inherit eternal life.
True, because good works always follows believers. It's receive salvation, then learn what are good works through Scripture. It takes a little time to learn the Word concerning good works. There are many that think they are doing good works, but not according to the Word of God.

It is our faith and the good works that we do for others which save us. The good works that we do for God and our neighbors prove that we have faith in God.
I would say it's our faith in God's grace that saves us (Eph 2:8, 9); and "not of works" (v 9). Good works proves our faith and love to God! Your right that if there are no good works, there's no salvation, because there's no faith if no good works; faith always produces works. One cannot have faith and no works (Jas 2:18). What you mean is faith and works are together. Can't have one without the other. There is no faith without manifesting it with works!
 
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Jan001

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True, because good works always follows believers. It's receive salvation, then learn what are good works through Scripture. It takes a little time to learn the Word concerning good works. There are many that think they are doing good works, but not according to the Word of God.


I would say it's our faith in God's grace that saves us (Eph 2:8, 9); and "not of works" (v 9). Good works proves our faith and love to God! Your right that if there are no good works, there's no salvation, because there's no faith if no good works; faith always produces works. One cannot have faith and no works (Jas 2:18). What you mean is faith and works are together. Can't have one without the other. There is no faith without manifesting it with works!
There are two parts to salvation.

The first part to salvation requires us to be saved by grace through faith as in Ephesians 2:8-9. Jesus provides the grace for us to be saved by the merits of His sacrificial death on the cross. No person could ever atone for Adam's sin. Only Jesus who was both God and man could mediate our reconciliation between God and man. No work of the Law of Moses Galatians 2:16 or righteous work of our own Titus 3:5 could atone for Adam's sin.


8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

The second part to salvation requires us to do, until we die, the good works that the Father prepared for us to do as in Ephesians 2:10. God prepared these for us to do even before He created the world.

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

This "should" is not a suggestion. It is a command. We were created to do good works in imitation of Jesus' good works on earth. This is the Father's will. Matthew 7:21

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

No matter what happens to us, we must be faithful until we die if we desire to be approved worthy to walk with Jesus in heaven.

Revelation 2:10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

2 Thessalonians 1:11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power,


Revelation 3:4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled (by sinning) their garments (baptismal clothes); and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.

Paul shows us an example of a believer who fell from grace because of fornication. He told the Christians to excommunicate/shun him so that he would perhaps repent and confess his sin and thereby be restored to grace and be admitted into their fellowship again.

1 Corinthians 5:1-5 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

I have heard of people who abandon God when their child or spouse dies. They prayed to God to heal their loved ones, but He did not heal them and so they rejected God. Unless they repent and confess their rejection of God before they die they will not be approved as worthy to inherit eternal life.

Christians who do not forgive those who have hurt them will not be approved as worthy to inherit eternal life.
Mark 11:25-26

Christians who do not provide for their needy relatives will not be approved as worthy to inherit eternal life. 1 Timothy 5:8

Jesus states:


Matthew 7:14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
 
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WordSword

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There are two parts to salvation.

The first part to salvation requires us to be saved

The second part to salvation requires us to do, until we die, the good works
It looks like we pretty much believe the same way on issues. Here , we are saying the same things. But it's my understanding that all who are saved will do good works; God ensures this (Phl 2:13). Those who discontinue the Christian life (which apostate do) show they weren't saved, because the saved continues "to the end" (Mat 24:13). This doesn't mean if you continue you will be saved, but that those who are truly saved continue unto the end. Big difference!

Paul shows us an example of a believer who fell from grace because of fornication. He told the Christians to excommunicate/shun him so that he would perhaps repent and confess his sin and thereby be restored to grace and be admitted into their fellowship again.
1 Corinthians 5:1-5 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you,
Only God would know if this person will repent, but we can't know until tested with rejection and afflicted by Satan (which only an Apostle can initiate). If the person is actually in Christ, he is carnal and immature, and the punishment will restore him to repentance. If the person is not truly in Christ it will manifest itself by him remaining impenitent. Thus showing he wasn't reborn (saved).

I have heard of people who abandon God when their child or spouse dies. They prayed to God to heal their loved ones, but He did not heal them and so they rejected God. Unless they repent and confess their rejection of God before they die they will not be approved as worthy to inherit eternal life.
Their lack of love to God in the midst of the death of a love one manifests the absence of true love to God (Mat 10:37).

Christians who do not forgive those who have hurt them will not be approved as worthy to inherit eternal life. Mark 11:25-26
Unforgiveness manifests one is not truly reborn. This manifests absence of true love to others, because we are to love those who abuse you (Mat 5:44); and if we don't love all others, we can't truthfully claim to love God (1Jo 4:20).
Christians who do not provide for their needy relatives will not be approved as worthy to inherit eternal life. 1 Timothy 5:8
True, not wanting to help others, esp. relatives shows a lack of genuine love (unsaved).
Jesus states:

Matthew 7:14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
I like that you brought up this passage, it's one of my favorite to help others realize that most of mankind is going to perish. If we were to compare the numbers of those who will perish, with the numbers with those who will be saved, the saved will be few in comparison to the lost!

God's blessings to your Family!
 
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It looks like we pretty much believe the same way on issues. Here , we are saying the same things. But it's my understanding that all who are saved will do good works; God ensures this (Phl 2:13). Those who discontinue the Christian life (which apostate do) show they weren't saved, because the saved continues "to the end" (Mat 24:13). This doesn't mean if you continue you will be saved, but that those who are truly saved continue unto the end. Big difference!


Only God would know if this person will repent, but we can't know until tested with rejection and afflicted by Satan (which only an Apostle can initiate). If the person is actually in Christ, he is carnal and immature, and the punishment will restore him to repentance. If the person is not truly in Christ it will manifest itself by him remaining impenitent. Thus showing he wasn't reborn (saved).


Their lack of love to God in the midst of the death of a love one manifests the absence of true love to God (Mat 10:37).


Unforgiveness manifests one is not truly reborn. This manifests absence of true love to others, because we are to love those who abuse you (Mat 5:44); and if we don't love all others, we can't truthfully claim to love God (1Jo 4:20).

True, not wanting to help others, esp. relatives shows a lack of genuine love (unsaved).

I like that you brought up this passage, it's one of my favorite to help others realize that most of mankind is going to perish. If we were to compare the numbers of those who will perish, with the numbers with those who will be saved, the saved will be few in comparison to the lost!

God's blessings to your Family!
Thank you! God's blessings to you and family also! :)

We have different understandings on salvation. You believe that if a person falls away from the faith that he was not saved at any time. I believe that it is the actual water baptism as commanded by Jesus in Matthew 28:18-19 which initially saves us and gives us the Holy Spirit.

"Then Jesus approached them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"

Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.


The person who does not believe will not receive the baptism as commanded by Jesus in Matthew 28:18-19 and so he will be condemned.

It is the water baptism commanded by Jesus in Matthew 28:18-19 which initially saves us and gives us the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38

It is the water baptism commanded Jesus in Matthew 28:18-19 which makes us born from above (born again) of water and the spirit.


John 3:3-5 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.” 4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!” 5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

It is this water baptism commanded by Jesus in Matthew 28:18-19 which forgives both Adam's sin and our own sins that are on our souls at the time of our baptism.

Acts 22:16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’ (Matthew 28:18-19)

I believe that a person can fall away from the faith at any time during his life by his own sinful choices. I also believe that by confessing and repenting of his sins he can be restored to grace again as many times as necessary during his lifetime in order to be approved worthy to inherit eternal life.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

To me, salvation is a life-long process. Satan, the world's allurements, and our own fleshly desires are our constant temptations for us to deny our faith in Jesus. These are our remedies against evil:


Ephesians 6:10-18 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people.

2 Peter 1:3-11 His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins. 10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.



 
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WordSword

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We have different understandings on salvation. You believe that if a person falls away from the faith that he was not saved at any time. I believe that it is the actual water baptism as commanded by Jesus in Matthew 28:18-19 which initially saves us and gives us the Holy Spirit.

"Then Jesus approached them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"

Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.
If we notice, belief (faith) precedes water baptism, because it's only believing that saves; being baptized is just obedience to Christ's command, which demonstrates to others what Christ has done for believers. The going under water demonstrates His death; and coming out of the water demonstrates His resurrection, both of which has already occurred in the life of the believer. The thief on the Cross went to heaven without baptism (Luk 23:43) and Simon the sorcerer went to Hell with baptism (Act 8:13, 20). I realize many believe that baptism saves but they are mistaken. It just shows our obedience to Christ.
 
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Jan001

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I realize many believe that baptism saves but they are mistaken. It just shows our obedience to Christ.
The Early Church leaders believed differently than you do. They taught that water Baptism is what forgives Adam's sin and our own sins.

We first become holy through the water baptism commanded by Jesus in Matthew 28:19-19. It is this water baptism which forgives all the sins on our souls at the time of our baptism.


Ephesians 5:26
to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,

Nicene Creed:


"I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen."


Hermas

“‘I have heard, sir,’ said I [to the Shepherd], ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’” (The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 [A.D. 80]).

Justin Martyr

“As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]” (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

Tertullian

Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . [But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism—which is quite in accordance with nature, for vipers and asps . . . themselves generally do live in arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes—by taking them away from the water!” (Baptism 1 [A.D. 203]).

Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none” (ibid., 12).


Hippolytus

“[P]erhaps someone will ask, ‘What does it conduce unto piety to be baptized?’ In the first place, that you may do what has seemed good to God; in the next place, being born again by water unto God so that you change your first birth, which was from concupiscence, and are able to attain salvation, which would otherwise be impossible. For thus the [prophet] has sworn to us: ‘Amen, I say to you, unless you are born again with living water, into the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’” (Homilies11:26 [A.D. 217]).

Origen​

It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism” (Exhortation to the Martyrs 30 [A.D. 235]).

Perhaps we will interact soon on another thread. I've enjoyed our discussion. :)

 
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WordSword

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The Early Church leaders believed differently than you do. They taught that water Baptism is what forgives Adam's sin and our own sins.
I also appreciate your replies and comments, it helps me see where you are in you understanding of doctrine. Yes, we do understand much of doctrine differently, but that's ok of course. What you mean by "early church fathers" are those of the Roman Catholic beliefs. They taught that there was power in the "sacrament of baptism," which the Protestant's never accepted. Protestants do not believe baptism has any power, but is just a command of Christ, which demonstrates or exemplifies all that Christ for us.

The RC worst teaching that interferes with spiritual growth is the doctrine of "Immaculate Conception." The dictionary defines it that the virgin Mary was born without sin. They should know that "all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Ro 3:23).

God's blessings to your Family!
 
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Jan001

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I will share my reasoning about the topic, the "Immaculate Conception of Mary", but I won't be discussing it here. :)

First of all, Jesus is God but He is also a man and He was conceived without sin so we know for sure that He is one exception to Romans 3:23 "all".

When Adam sinned, all his descendants were thereafter tainted with original sin. In order for Jesus to be born sinless and not be subjected to sickness and death, His DNA could not be corrupted by Adam's sin.

Jesus could not be tainted with original sin otherwise He could not offer Himself as a perfect blood sacrifice to His Father to atone for Adam's sin in order for us to be reconciled to God.

Half of Jesus' DNA is from His mother. So in order for His DNA to be perfect, her DNA also had to be perfect.

God is outside of time. It is always "today". Psalm 2:7 God sees the past events and the future events on earth as "today." We humans cannot do this. We humans are subject to time here on earth but God is not.

Hebrews 4:3 Only we who believe it are able to enter God’s place of rest. As God said,
“I was angry and made a promise:
‘They will never enter my place of rest.’”
But God’s work was finished from the time he made the world.

Revelation 13:8 And all those living on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world.

1 Peter 1:20 He was chosen in advance, before the foundation of the world, but was revealed at the end of the times for you


So God applied the merits of Jesus Christ's perfect sacrifice to His own (future) mother at the instant of her own conception and saved her. By saving her in this manner, God gifted her with pure DNA so that she could then become the worthy mother of God's own Son.

God's blessings to you and your family also!
 
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Jan001

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......What you mean by "early church fathers" are those of the Roman Catholic beliefs. They taught that there was power in the "sacrament of baptism," which the Protestant's never accepted. Protestants do not believe baptism has any power, but is just a command of Christ, which demonstrates or exemplifies all that Christ for us.
From the beginning of Christ's Church on earth, it was taught by Jesus and His apostles, that it is the baptism commanded by Jesus in Matthew 28:18-19 which literally washes away all of a person's sins on his soul at the time of his baptism. This doctrine was taught throughout the whole known world. Romans 1:8 This baptism washes away (forgives) our sins. This baptismal water along with the speaking of the words of Baptism ("I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit") is the method by which God chose to apply the merits of Jesus' sacrifice to our souls in order to reconcile us to God.

Baptism:

Colossians 2:11-13 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not administered by human hands. The circumcision of Christ is realized in the stripping away of the whole self dominated by sin. 12 You were buried with him through baptism and raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 When you were dead because of the things you had done wrong and because your body wasn’t circumcised, God made you alive with Christ and forgave all the things you had done wrong.


The Baptism as commanded by Jesus in Matthew 28:18-19:

Ephesians 5:26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,

Titus 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


I have chosen to believe the early Church's teaching about the necessity of baptism for salvation. :)
 
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WordSword

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I will share my reasoning about the topic, the "Immaculate Conception of Mary", but I won't be discussing it here. :)

First of all, Jesus is God but He is also a man and He was conceived without sin so we know for sure that He is one exception to Romans 3:23 "all".
I like most of what you said, but I mentioned Immaculate Conception to just point out one the many errors of the RC, which they relate to Mary.
 
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