Krauss embarrasses WLC
- Thread starter HitchSlap
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I was anxious to listen to it all because I like this stuff. But I only listened through each's opening remarks (through 44:30) because Krauss was thus far only embarrassing himself as he's done in the past. Is there some specific time point(s) later you could tell me where he embarrasses Craig?
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Er, as always, his claim that physics shows us that universes can be created and destroyed without God is pure faith on his part. Lambda-CDM doesn't explain where inflation or DE, or the energy of the universe comes from. Only his "gravity is negative energy" cult thinks that.
He even personally evokes 4 supernatural constructs just to get to Lambda-CDM, and that has nothing to do with creating energy/matter out of a "vacuum" as he rants on about. Yawn.
He even personally evokes 4 supernatural constructs just to get to Lambda-CDM, and that has nothing to do with creating energy/matter out of a "vacuum" as he rants on about. Yawn.
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Krauss points out that science has explained away thousands of gods throughout history so therefore no god is real. I think that's a bit of a stretch.
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bhsmte
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The one guy who really destroyed Craig in a debate was Sam Harris.
Although, Krauss raises many valid accurate points, his demeanor towards arrogance does not make him a good debater IMO. What he says may be true, but the style of how you say it, influences people's impressions quite a bit.
Although, Krauss raises many valid accurate points, his demeanor towards arrogance does not make him a good debater IMO. What he says may be true, but the style of how you say it, influences people's impressions quite a bit.
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His logic is like a guy trying to disprove the value of science by showing that a thousand scientific ideas of the past have been shown to be false, so all science is worthless.
He seems to think that he explained away the universe without God, yet he evokes no less that four supernatural entities to make that happen, and he *still* doesn't explain where any of them came from, or why he thinks they just went "bang" one fine day.
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M
MikeCarra
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This is why "strong atheism" ("There is no God") is a flawed logical proposition. It is a universal negative which cannot be proven.
HOWEVER, the fact that so far every proposed god has been ultimately shown to not be needed means god is assymptotically approaching non-existence.
This is also why "God of the gaps" is often disavowed even by theologians.
If one were to keep letting God retreat into those areas we don't know the answer to yet, it risks God being shown up over and over again as unnecessary.
The concept of God arises in the human mind in his wildly various forms, not because of some inherent "TRUTH" that needs to be explained by the "God Variable", but rather because of a LACK OF UNDERSTANDING of a suite of events.
On top of this there are those who use personal inspiration to "flesh out God" and make him into someone who, for example, sent himself as his son to a small Roman colony by the Mediterranean 2100 years ago and worked to have himself sacrificed to himself to atone mankind to him. Or someone who wants you to pray 5 times a day facing a city in Saudi Arabia. Or someone who... etc etc.
I am a "weak atheist" (I simply fail to see evidence for God's existence). If I think about life as a test against the null hypothesis ("There is no God") I have so far found insufficient evidence to reject the null hypothesis. This isn't a "stretch" and with every new "disproof" of God (he's no longer needed to explain lightning or illness or whatever) it doesn't help to shift that conclusion toward rejection of the null.
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Good post and informative debate! I could defeat most of Steve Caroll's arguments with a predictive model of universal fine tuning beginning with God.
This universe and infinite others are the result of a reproductive act of an eternal infinite living being made of real matter (God). Space was made within this Being like a womb and the whirl of galaxies was left in it's wake.
The infinite is quantized in a very specific container arrangement around our space-time which pattern for specific structural relationships namely the holographic wave form we call the atom.
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Craig danced around the points, didn't really address counter points and has no predictive model of the action of God. I do. If he is skilled in debate, I didn't see it there. In fact I watched another debate where Krauss destroyed him. I am more excited about debating Krauss than Carroll. That guy is a wrecking ball!
Yes, I am "really something". I inhabit mountain of 7x10^27 atoms and I know where they all came from and why the are structured in sphere/point/probability field nature.
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The majority of my predictions are structural i.e. shape-flow and constituent parts.
I could give you many predictions including the skin effect of electricity, the particle/wave duality of the photon, and a dark energy max of ~74% a min of ~61% and a median value of about 68%... But you would have no idea why. First we'd have to start with the definition of "The God" before the beginning of all creation: Infinite, eternal, living, and composed of real substance. A "One" beside whom there is no other.
For model purposes I postulate this is quark matter: An infinitely super-conductive Fermi liquid billions of times hotter and denser than atomic (holographic) matter. There is no space between quarks. This exist as the "singularity" before "inflation" of void space-time. It has no top, bottom or sides. It has no shape because there is no space to define shape.
The finely tuned void space of our universe does not arise in a big bang but in a great contraction: A super-cavitation of the Infinite One into finite ones; universes, the metaversal stack of infinite universes like vacuum bubbles suspended in fiery water..
This takes on very specific, predictive shape relationships.
How would you like to proceed?
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bhsmte
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Craig danced around the points, didn't really address counter points and has no predictive model of the action of God. I do. If he is skilled in debate, I didn't see it there. In fact I watched another debate where Krauss destroyed him. I am more excited about debating Krauss than Carroll. That guy is a wrecking ball!
Yes, I am "really something". I inhabit mountain of 7x10^27 atoms and I know where they all came from and why the are structured in sphere/point/probability field nature.
Well, Craig is considered by many to be one of the best Christian apologists and debaters and he is indeed skillful at dancing around issues and even more so at; misrepresenting his opponents position, to eat up valuable time during a debate.
Yes, you are a legend in your own mind.
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Which is why I would rather debate Caroll.
So are most of those guys in the debates, certainly Krauss. What I think of myself is as nothing, clearly navigating and conveying the territory within me and all around me is everything. I am just a reflection suspended between many inner and outer membranes...and I am learning to have fun.
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I think Krauss of all people would appreciate the view of being a mountain of 7x10^27 atoms, a luxury cruise ship for 100 trillion bacterial cells, a spirit on a meat-ship steering a skeleton made of stardust.
We are summations of the universe, interpenetrated at all levels by invisible forces. The only difference is between people is the degree to which they are aware of them...and communicate with them. No habla' ingles. Or for that matter any other meat flapping sounds squirted through a meat pipe. But words do help you pattern your intention so that your electromagnetic heart can directly nest information with your electromagnetic environment (the earth).
"Be still, know thyself, and know God."
We are summations of the universe, interpenetrated at all levels by invisible forces. The only difference is between people is the degree to which they are aware of them...and communicate with them. No habla' ingles. Or for that matter any other meat flapping sounds squirted through a meat pipe. But words do help you pattern your intention so that your electromagnetic heart can directly nest information with your electromagnetic environment (the earth).
"Be still, know thyself, and know God."
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