KJV only?

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jlujan69

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Despite the title of this thread, I'm in no way trying to put down anyone who may think that God's only revealed truth in the English language is through the KJV. In fact, I have to admit that I also hold concerns about the differences between KJV (and NKJV) and the other versions. There are passages in the KJV which are not to be found in the text of the other versions but rather in the footnotes. I understand their reasoning for doing so--using another set of Greek manuscripts to translate from. Nevertheless, at least some of these passages seem to make particularly key statements. Of course, it's easy to become extremely legalistic about this and insist on only one version. For me, since I too have concerns about these discrepancies, my own policy is to have either a KJV or NKJV on hand just in case "questions should arise". I will not, however, go so far as to outright condemn the other versions, except perhaps for the gender-neutral one. That one's a little weird! At any rate, what are your thoughts on the differences in the texts? Do they matter? If so, where to draw the line on what's acceptable and what's not?
 

Asaph

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riverpastor said:
I use an Amplified/KJV parallel Bible in study and ministering.

I supplement both with the Kenneth Wuest translation of the New Testament.

I look for the most literal translation. I also use the Strong's quite a bit.
The Wuest Expanded NT Translation has been an incredable blessing for me. Not easy to get used to, but really comes in handy for places where I'm just not getting the gist of the text.

It can be a real eye opener when it comes to the subject of Grace.....:clap:

Grace, Mercy, and Peace,
Asaph
 
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Father Rick

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To really open a can of worms....

The KJV we have now is only part of the original KJV. The early KJV's also include books of the Apocrypha in it. Remember it was written in England for the Anglican Church, which accepts the Apocryphal books as books of wisdom from the early Church. So if someone insists on KJV only, ask them where to find the Book of Maccabees or Sirach.;) That'll really mess up the conversation.


With that being said... different people argue over which translation is the 'truest' to the original-- the answer usually being whichever version best supports their pet theology. I think it is good to use a couple of different versions to compare some of the differences, as well as looking at the original languages if at all possible. My personal favorite translations are the NIV for ease of reading, the NASV for accuracy in translation, and the NAB for when I need to reference an Apocryphal book.


For anyone who may not be aware, www.crosswalk.com has the Bible online in about 15 translations, fully searchable with the original languages and several commentaries. GREAT RESOURCE!!!
 
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New_Wineskin

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jlujan69 said:
At any rate, what are your thoughts on the differences in the texts? Do they matter? If so, where to draw the line on what's acceptable and what's not?
I don't have any problem with the differences in the texts . I only care about what the Lord says to me . When reading the Scriptures or listening to a person or simply the Spirit speaking to my spirit , only what He is saying matters . So , I am not too interested in the text itself except that it is the language that I use . I don't care which translations other people use - that is their call . I won't use KJV because I don't speak the language that Jim used .
 
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cathy_07

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I believe that it is up to the individual to decide what text fits them best. For me, when I see a text such as the NKJV sitting next to one such as the NIV and see this David and Goliath type thing goin on, I get a little... "iffy". So I read the NKJV myself but always remember that no matter what you pick up, you are reading a translation of an original so pray about it, and see where you go from there ^_^
 
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jlujan69

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AV1611 said:
I am a firm believer that the Authorised Version of 1611 is the inspired Word of God.
By chance is that the one that contains the Apocrypha? I'd read somewhere (actually a Chick Bible tract) that one of the first editions had those books.
 
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He put me back together

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The different translations have different methods, and schools of though even, with translation. These methods of translation can be more or less effective, dependant on how far along a person is with the Lord.

The best translation I have found myself, I think, is "The Scriptures," translated by the Institute for Scripture Research. Their school of thought apparently is "Let us translate the scriptures as literally as possible, leaving all theological ambiguities, as well as names of people, places, and God, in the original language. Then the reader can research the culture, and understand what is being said with more purity."

So, where the Scriptures say "kidney" in hebrew, they don't translate it to "mind" or "emotions." They translate it literally. For example:
Jeremiah 17:10 said:
"I, Yahweh, search the heart, I try the kidneys, and give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds."
It is then up to the reader to find out what in the world Yahweh meant when he said these things. This allows us to more efficiently get to the root of the Word, instead of taking the opinion of a scholar, though it is usually correct, and brush it off without looking it up, thinking that there is less to the scriptures than there really is. Optimally, I think this translation should be coupled with the bracketed expansion idea of the Amplified Bible. This would probably provide the best one-glance insight to what the scriptures are saying, with CLEAR decifering between what is literally translated, and what is the well-educated opinion of the translator on what the literally translated words mean. Then the reader's lexicon time can be spent diving deeper. The more efficiently ideas are conducted, the better the reader can understand.

But should a new believer read this Bible? I think someone who grows up in our culture, let alone a pagan culture, would have trouble reading "Set-apart, Set-apart, Set-apart, Yahweh El Shaddiah!" if he hadn't had some studying under his belt. And while he's fiddling with the pages trying to understand, he may be lead astray by spirits of confusion, and his guard might be let down to the attacks that so swiftly come. A weaned believer has been battle hardened--he knows Satan's tricks of fatigue. What's more, he's probably studied the Bible longer and understands the Hebrew culture better. So for a new believer, I think "Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty" is a better translation.

The NIV gets jumped for using the "translate by the idea, not the word" method, but I think, for the MOST PART, it is an excellent resource for a man who just met the savior yesterday and knows nothing about the culture of the Jews. Hey, in many places it's more literal...and more correct...than the KJV. However, when that baby christian grows up, he needs to find out what the word that was translated "Holy" means. And he needs to find out that once the grave and Gehenna were translated as "hell," they have been distorted by antiquity and western culture. He needs to know that "God" is an English word, not a Hebrew word, and he needs to know what the Creator was called by the Hebrews, and why. There are lots of things an experienced Christian needs to know, that would only bring confusion, and too much information, to a new believer.
 
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JimB

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For those who see the KJV as the only inspired version of the Bible, I have 22 questions I would like for them to answer:

1. Which KJV do you most believe in: the original 1611 version (which is almost impossible for modern people to read) or the 1613, 1629, 1638, 1644, 1664, 1701, 1744, 1762, 1769, or 1850 (the one publishers use today) revisions? There are many hundreds of changes in words, word order, possessives, singulars, plurals, articles, pronouns, conjunctions, prepositions, entire phrases, and the addition and deletion of words from 1611 to 1850.

2. How do you KNOW which of these versions is MORE correct than the others?

3. Where was the "word of God" prior to 1611? Where was it before the development of Elizabethan English?

4. Were the KJV translators wrong, or were they liars, when they said ""the very meanest [i.e., poorest] translation" is still "the word of God?"

5. Did our Pilgrim Fathers have "the word of God" when they brought the Geneva Bible translation (instead of the KJV) with them to North America?

6. In what language did Jesus Christ teach that the Old Testament would be preserved forever according to Matthew 5:18?

7. Is only the KJV, to the exclusion of all other translations, infallible? If so, how do you know?

8. Where does the Bible teach that God will perfectly preserve His Word in the form of one seventeenth-century English translation?

9. Do you believe the English KJV was "given by inspiration of God?" Did the KJV translators mislead their readers by saying that their New Testament was "translated out of the original Greek?" [title page of KJV N.T.] Were they misleading for claiming to have used "the original Greek" from which to translate?

10. How did the great Protestant Reformation (1517-1603) take place without the 1611 "word of God"? Then what translations of "the word of God," used by the Reformers, was the absolutely infallible and inerrant ones? (Their main Bibles are well-known and copies still exist.)

11. If the KJV is "God's infallible and preserved word to the English-speaking people," as KJV proponents claim, did the "English-speaking people" have "the word of God" from 1525-1604? Was Tyndale's (1525), or Coverdale's (1535), or Matthew's (1537), or the Great (1539), or the Geneva (1560) English Bibles absolutely infallible?

12. Which reading is the verbally (word-for-word) inerrant scripture — "whom ye" (Cambridge KJV) or, "whom he" (Oxford KJV) at Jeremiah 34:16? Which reading is the verbally (word-for-word) inerrant scripture — "sin" (Cambridge) or "sins" (Oxford) at 2 Chronicles 33:19? Which one is the infallible "INERRANT KJV"?

13. Does it matter that history shows that King James I, whose name adorns the cover of your Bible and whose name champions the KJV-Only cause, was a practicing adulterer, homosexual and pedophile? (For documentation: Antonia Fraser, "King James VI of Scotland, I of England," Knopf, 1975, pgs.36-37, 123. Caroline Bingham, "The Making of a King," Doubleday, 1969, pgs.128-129, 197-198. Otto J. Scott, "James," Mason-Charter, 1976, pgs.108, 111, 120, 194, 200, 224, 311, 353, 382. David H. Wilson, "King James VI & I," Oxford, 1956, pgs.36, 99-101, 336-337, 383-386, 395. Plus numerous encyclopedias and articles.)

14. Would it matter to you that KJV translator, Richard Thomson, who worked on Genesis through Kings in the Westminster group, was "led by God in translating" even though he was an alcoholic that "drank his fill daily" throughout the work? (Gustavus S. Paine, "The Men Behind the KJV," Baker Book House, 1979, pgs. 40, 69.)

15. Does the singular "oath’s," occurring in every KJV at Matthew 14:9 and Mark 6:26, "correct" every Textus Receptus Greek (from which the KJV was translated into English) which has the plural ("oaths") by the post-1611 publishers, misplacing the apostrophe?

16. Is the Holy Spirit an "it" according to KJV John 1:32; Romans 8:16, 26; and 1 Peter 1:11 in the KJV? (Sorry, you may not resort to the Greek for any light if you are a true KJV-Onlyite!)

17. Does Luke 23:56 support a "Friday" crucifixion in the KJV? (FYI, There is no "day" here in Greek.)

18. Is KJV-Onlyite Don Edwards correct in agreeing "in favor of canonizing our KJV," thus replacing the inspired canon in Hebrew and Greek? (The Flaming Torch, June 1989, page 6). And did God supernaturally "move His Word from the original languages to English" in 1611 as affirmed by The Flaming Torch? [same page as above]

19. Do you believe in or read the KJV Apocrypha which was included as integral to the original 1611 translation? If not, why not?

20. Does it matter that the KJV translators offered more than 8,000 alternate English renderings from Greek and Hebrew manuscripts? For example, Judges 19:2 shows an instance where the meaning of the Hebrew is obscure. Was it "four months" or "a year and four months" as the alternate reading (margin) indicates? Quite a difference! But the structure of the Hebrew makes it difficult for any translator to know for sure which it is. So they show the alternate reading, not knowing themselves for sure which is correct! No one questions the Greek-Hebrew is inspired. But if the translators were also inspired by the Holy Spirit, in their work of translating the inspired Hebrew into English, they would have been guided by divine inspiration to the correct rendering, hence no need for any alternate readings in the margin.

21. Are non-English translations used by Christians in other nations without merit because they are not the KJV?

22. If the KJV is proper form of English then why don’t you speak it? (Although, truthfully, I have heard my share of prayers in KJ English.)

©2002 Jim B. Miller
 
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Gods by Grace

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My problem with the idea of KJV only is that most people who prescribe to this idea don't speak the original greek or hebrew. They're just taking someone elses word that it's a better translation. Not speaking either hebrew or greek myself I can't claim any different, but lacking that I choose to diversify instead. My current primary bible is an English Standard Version. It's a more recent translation which works on a word for word base. I back that up with the NIV, NLT and KJV, and have access (via my roomie) to about 10 other versions. A pretty broad base.

They all say the same thing, just in different words. So this fuss over which is more "correct" sort of confuses me. They're all correct, just made for different users.
 
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Iosias

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If you wish to continue this in the non-denominational forum then I will be more than happy to answer your questions!

Jim M said:
For those who see the KJV as the only inspired version of the Bible, I have 22 questions I would like for them to answer:

1. Which KJV do you most believe in: the original 1611 version (which is almost impossible for modern people to read) or the 1613, 1629, 1638, 1644, 1664, 1701, 1744, 1762, 1769, or 1850 (the one publishers use today) revisions? There are many hundreds of changes in words, word order, possessives, singulars, plurals, articles, pronouns, conjunctions, prepositions, entire phrases, and the addition and deletion of words from 1611 to 1850.

2. How do you KNOW which of these versions is MORE correct than the others?

3. Where was the "word of God" prior to 1611? Where was it before the development of Elizabethan English?

4. Were the KJV translators wrong, or were they liars, when they said ""the very meanest [i.e., poorest] translation" is still "the word of God?"

5. Did our Pilgrim Fathers have "the word of God" when they brought the Geneva Bible translation (instead of the KJV) with them to North America?

6. In what language did Jesus Christ teach that the Old Testament would be preserved forever according to Matthew 5:18?

7. Is only the KJV, to the exclusion of all other translations, infallible? If so, how do you know?

8. Where does the Bible teach that God will perfectly preserve His Word in the form of one seventeenth-century English translation?

9. Do you believe the English KJV was "given by inspiration of God?" Did the KJV translators mislead their readers by saying that their New Testament was "translated out of the original Greek?" [title page of KJV N.T.] Were they misleading for claiming to have used "the original Greek" from which to translate?

10. How did the great Protestant Reformation (1517-1603) take place without the 1611 "word of God"? Then what translations of "the word of God," used by the Reformers, was the absolutely infallible and inerrant ones? (Their main Bibles are well-known and copies still exist.)

11. If the KJV is "God's infallible and preserved word to the English-speaking people," as KJV proponents claim, did the "English-speaking people" have "the word of God" from 1525-1604? Was Tyndale's (1525), or Coverdale's (1535), or Matthew's (1537), or the Great (1539), or the Geneva (1560) English Bibles absolutely infallible?

12. Which reading is the verbally (word-for-word) inerrant scripture — "whom ye" (Cambridge KJV) or, "whom he" (Oxford KJV) at Jeremiah 34:16? Which reading is the verbally (word-for-word) inerrant scripture — "sin" (Cambridge) or "sins" (Oxford) at 2 Chronicles 33:19? Which one is the infallible "INERRANT KJV"?

13. Does it matter that history shows that King James I, whose name adorns the cover of your Bible and whose name champions the KJV-Only cause, was a practicing adulterer, homosexual and pedophile? (For documentation: Antonia Fraser, "King James VI of Scotland, I of England," Knopf, 1975, pgs.36-37, 123. Caroline Bingham, "The Making of a King," Doubleday, 1969, pgs.128-129, 197-198. Otto J. Scott, "James," Mason-Charter, 1976, pgs.108, 111, 120, 194, 200, 224, 311, 353, 382. David H. Wilson, "King James VI & I," Oxford, 1956, pgs.36, 99-101, 336-337, 383-386, 395. Plus numerous encyclopedias and articles.)

14. Would it matter to you that KJV translator, Richard Thomson, who worked on Genesis through Kings in the Westminster group, was "led by God in translating" even though he was an alcoholic that "drank his fill daily" throughout the work? (Gustavus S. Paine, "The Men Behind the KJV," Baker Book House, 1979, pgs. 40, 69.)

15. Does the singular "oath’s," occurring in every KJV at Matthew 14:9 and Mark 6:26, "correct" every Textus Receptus Greek (from which the KJV was translated into English) which has the plural ("oaths") by the post-1611 publishers, misplacing the apostrophe?

16. Is the Holy Spirit an "it" according to KJV John 1:32; Romans 8:16, 26; and 1 Peter 1:11 in the KJV? (Sorry, you may not resort to the Greek for any light if you are a true KJV-Onlyite!)

17. Does Luke 23:56 support a "Friday" crucifixion in the KJV? (FYI, There is no "day" here in Greek.)

18. Is KJV-Onlyite Don Edwards correct in agreeing "in favor of canonizing our KJV," thus replacing the inspired canon in Hebrew and Greek? (The Flaming Torch, June 1989, page 6). And did God supernaturally "move His Word from the original languages to English" in 1611 as affirmed by The Flaming Torch? [same page as above]

19. Do you believe in or read the KJV Apocrypha which was included as integral to the original 1611 translation? If not, why not?

20. Does it matter that the KJV translators offered more than 8,000 alternate English renderings from Greek and Hebrew manuscripts? For example, Judges 19:2 shows an instance where the meaning of the Hebrew is obscure. Was it "four months" or "a year and four months" as the alternate reading (margin) indicates? Quite a difference! But the structure of the Hebrew makes it difficult for any translator to know for sure which it is. So they show the alternate reading, not knowing themselves for sure which is correct! No one questions the Greek-Hebrew is inspired. But if the translators were also inspired by the Holy Spirit, in their work of translating the inspired Hebrew into English, they would have been guided by divine inspiration to the correct rendering, hence no need for any alternate readings in the margin.

21. Are non-English translations used by Christians in other nations without merit because they are not the KJV?

22. If the KJV is proper form of English then why don’t you speak it? (Although, truthfully, I have heard my share of prayers in KJ English.)



©2002 Jim B. Miller
 
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New_Wineskin

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Jim M said:
For those who see the KJV as the only inspired version of the Bible, I have 22 questions I would like for them to answer:
Were there any questions in this dealing with the fact that Jimmy was the head ( ie pope ) of the Anglican group which was a very , very small step from the Catholic group ? That doesn't matter to me but many KJV people are very anti-catholic .
 
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Suffolk Sean

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New_Wineskin said:
Were there any questions in this dealing with the fact that Jimmy was the head ( ie pope ) of the Anglican group which was a very , very small step from the Catholic group ? That doesn't matter to me but many KJV people are very anti-catholic .
Excessively so I would say...
 
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Personally I give preference to NKJV. But interpreting English-speaking preachers I mostly have to use KJV. Interestingly, Russian Christians have no such problem as we all accept our canonical Bible which is considered to be one of the best versions in the world. I must admit, both KJV and NKJV are similar to it.
 
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JimB

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AV1611 said:
If you wish to continue this in the non-denominational forum then I will be more than happy to answer your questions!
Thanks AV1611. Sorry, I seldom go to the non-denom forum and, since this question was asked in this forum, I will welcome your answers here.



\o/
 
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Suffolk Sean

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AV1611 said:
If you wish to continue this in the non-denominational forum then I will be more than happy to answer your questions!
I don't really think the KJV issue is a P/C doctrine so I would have no problems with you posting here either.
 
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Iosias

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I will jot this down now and come back later!

"The words of the LORD are pure words, As silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, Thou shalt preserve them from this generation forever." Psalm 12:6,7

"Heaven and earth shall pass away, But my words shall not pass away." Matthew 24:35

Our LORD promised to preserve the Holy Scriptures and so the Greek Textus Receptus, from which the Authorized King James Version was translated, is the true Word of God. Hence the AKJV is also the true Word of God.
 
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