Keeping the CHRIST in Christmas vs the SATURN in Saturnalia.

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Wgw

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For those questioning the authenticity of Christmas as a Christian holiday, here are a few questions to consider . . .

Why didn't early church fathers such as Irenaeus, Tertullian and Origen feel a need to celebrate the birthday of Christ?

If the Canon of Scripture was completed sometime in the early 2nd Century, why did it take over 200 years before the Mass for Christ was first placed on a calendar along side the pagan holiday the saturnalia?

What was significant about the mid-three hundreds that the Roman Church felt it was necessary to take the pagan festivals and amalgamate Christ into it?

It wasn't just the Roman Church, but the Orthodox as well. Before that time, the Nativity of our Lord was celebrated together with His Baptism on the feast of Theophany/Epiphany on January 6th (old calendar), a custom the Armenians still follow in part.
 
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Strong in Him

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Reviewing the comments to this topic, nearly all the participates subscribe to the Theology of Christmas.

Theology of Christmas has the following characteristics:

1. An oral tradition passed down from the previous generation; for Catholics dating back to the mid-fourth century, Protestants back to the mid-nineteenth century.
2. Feelings of melancholy and euphoria at the time of the winter solstice.

No.
Theology = study of God, or things pertaining to God. The theology of Christmas is found in the Gospels, two of which tell, in detail, of Christ's birth, how it was announced and to whom, and their response to it.
The Word became flesh and lived among us- THAT is the theology of Christmas.
It started with God; HE sent his Son to be born.

I don't feel melancholic around the time of the winter solstice.

3. A faith in Christmas is right because an organized religious institute says so and secular society accepts it.

Secular society does not necessarily accept Christ's birth or that this is what Christmas is all about.
Think of the nativity cribs that have been banned "in case they offend other faiths", or which are not put on Christmas cards because they are not what people want.

4. Willful disregard for what Scripture teaches regarding celebrating birthdays or embracing pagan holidays.

Scripture does not say that we cannot celebrate birthdays.
 
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Eph4:26

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"A markedly more thoughtful approach to the Christians can be seen in the correspondence between Tacitus' friend Pliny and the emperor Trajan when the former was serving as governor of Bithynia from 109 or 110 AD. The exchange is the first pagan evidence of the Roman attitude to Christianity. Pliny informs Trajan that he has interrogated those who have been denounced to him as Christians. If they persisted in their belief, he had them executed, feeling that, whatever the nature of their creed, 'their stubborn defiance and inflexible obstinacy' deserved punishment. He discharged those who said they were not Christians, if they invoked the Roman gods, offered adoration with wine and frankincense to Trajan's image and cursed Christ. Former Christians too were discharged if they went through the same procedure. Pliny conceded that at their meeting the Christians simply sang hymns and commit themselves to virtuous behaviour, but he still thinks of their religion as 'a contagious superstition'.

. . . Trajan (in reply) expressed his approval of what Pliny had done,"

Hadrian, pg. 88
By James Morrows
2013

Hence, if a Christian renounced their faith and accepted the roman gods, including the celebration of the Saturnalia, they lived. From Memoirs of Hadrian By Marguerite Yourcenar, we have evidence that the Saturnalia was celebrated during Hadrian's reign. "I could stand well enough the smell of fried foods in the public squares at the Saturnalia, . . . "

pg 8.

Hence . . .

I. Christianity began as a Jewish sect.
II. Jewish tradition did not celebrate birthdays.
III. Early Church Fathers did not recognize the Birth of Jesus as anything significant to 'celebrate'.
IV. Pagan practices, such as birthdays, evolved into the Church due to political and economic influences.
V. Many Protestant churches throughout the history of Christianity rejected Christmas on the grounds I just cited.
 
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prodromos

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I don't know why you want to pick on Christmas. In the Orthodox Church we celebrate something on every day of the year, whether they be significant events in the life of Christ and His disciples or the deaths of martyrs or significant miracles in the history of the Church. Every single day is covered and each day often commemorates multple Saints/miracles/events.
There is a small Russian Skete not far from where I live which was using an old timber building for worship until the Council deemed it unsafe. After some negotiations the abbot managed to obtain permission to keep using the building for services on Sunday and feast days until they were able to build a new church or find an intermediate solution. What the Council members didn't realise was that every day is a feast day on the calendar of the Orthodox Church :)
 
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Eph4:26

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In the article “Yuletide,” in The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge (1912) at 497, it explains:

The Church of the first two centuries had no thought of celebrating it as a festival. Origen (In Lev. horn., viii. 3, In Matt. xiv. 6 [MPG, xii. 495, xiii. 893-894]), followed by Jerome (In Matt. xiv. 6 [MPL, xxvi. 97]), pronounced decisively against the celebration of birthdays of saints and martyrs.... 2

Origen followed a Sola Scriptura rationale, writing:

...of all the holy people in the Scriptures, no one is recorded to have kept a feast or held a great banquet on his birthday. It is only sinners (like Pharaoh and Herod) who make great rejoicings over the day on which they were born into this world below. (Origen, in Levit., Hom. VIII, in Migne P.G., XII, 495.)

Similarly, the first century Jewish historian Josephus noted that Jewish families did not celebrate birthdays based upon Sola Scriptura reasoning:

Nay, indeed, the law does not permit us to make festivals at the birth of our children, and thereby afford occasion of drinking to excess. (Josephus (translated W. Whiston) Against Apion, Book II, Chapter 26, in Josephus, Complete Works (Kregel Publications, Grand Rapids (MI), 14th printing, 1977) at 632.)
 
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Wgw

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The same reason that Jehovah's Witnesses and other sects that don't believe in the Deity of our Lord don't, in Eph's words, "do Christmas". They're most of them neo-aryans of some sort, or would-be Jews who believe that our Lord was the Messiah, but that He was a creature and not the Creator.

Note, the word is Arians, with an "i", as in Arius; it is unrelated to the ancient Aryan people or various racialist theories concerning them.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Theology of Christmas has the following characteristics
  1. Joyous worship of the Lord Jesus Christ as God incarnate
  2. Happy family gatherings
  3. Good foods in abundance like the feast with father Abraham that is to mark the consummation of the ages
  4. and happy post Christmas dinner naps :)
 
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Eph4:26

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Scriptural reference of birthdays are not a righteous occasion.

Pharaoh and Herod birthdays are recorded in the Bible. In both instances, these pagan rulers liked human sacrifices for their birthday presents. In addition:


Quote from: Rick Otto

Those are the obvious ones. Now check this reference to the annual feast on "your" day:

Job1:1: There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. 2: And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters. 3: His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she asses, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east.

4: And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them. 5: And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.

"Job was not silly, superstitious, or a paranoid conspiracy theorist, but this party idea was a cause for concern.
The whole thing is ego enshrining & therefore antithetical to gospel principles."
 
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MoreCoffee

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Scriptural reference of birthdays are
Jesus' birth is mentioned in holy scripture this way:
Now it happened that, while they were there, the time came for her to have her child, and she gave birth to a son, her first-born. She wrapped him in swaddling clothes and laid him in a manger because there was no room for them in the living-space. In the countryside close by there were shepherds out in the fields keeping guard over their sheep during the watches of the night. An angel of the Lord stood over them and the glory of the Lord shone round them. They were terrified, but the angel said, 'Do not be afraid. Look, I bring you news of great joy, a joy to be shared by the whole people. Today in the town of David a Saviour has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord. And here is a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in swaddling clothes and lying in a manger.' And all at once with the angel there was a great throng of the hosts of heaven, praising God with the words: Glory to God in the highest heaven, and on earth peace for those he favours. Now it happened that when the angels had gone from them into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, 'Let us go to Bethlehem and see this event which the Lord has made known to us.' So they hurried away and found Mary and Joseph, and the baby lying in the manger. When they saw the child they repeated what they had been told about him, and everyone who heard it was astonished at what the shepherds said to them. As for Mary, she treasured all these things and pondered them in her heart. And the shepherds went back glorifying and praising God for all they had heard and seen, just as they had been told.
(Luke 2:6-20 NJB)​
Truly a joyous occasion.
 
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Eph4:26

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The Battle for Christmas

By Stephen Nissenbaum

Chapter 1

New England’s War on Christmas
The puritan War on Misrule

In New England, for the first two centuries of white settlement most people did not celebrate Christmas. In fact, the holiday was systematically suppressed by Puritans during the colonial period and largely ignored by their descendants. It was actually illegal to celebrate Christmas in Massachusetts between 1659 and 1681 (the fine was five shillings). Only in the middle of the nineteenth century did Christmas gain legal recognition as an official public holiday in New England. Writing near the end of that century, one New Englander, born in 1822, recalled going to school as a boy on Christmas Day, adding that even as late as 1850, in Worcester, Massachusetts, “The courts were in session on that day, the markets were open, and I doubt if there had ever been a religious service on Christmas Day, unless it were Sunday, in that town.” As late as 1952, one writer recalled being told by his grandparents that New England mill workers risked losing their jobs if they arrived late at work on December 25, and that sometimes “factory owners would change the starting hours on Christmas Day to five o’clock or some equally early hour in order that workers who wanted to attend a church service would have to forego, or be dismissed for being late for work.”

“It was only in the fourth century that the Church officially decided to observe Christmas on December 25. And this date was chosen not for religious reasons but simply because it happened to mark the approximate arrival of the winter solstice, an event that was celebrated long before the advent of Christianity. The puritans were correct when they pointed out – and they pointed it out often – that Christmas was nothing but a pagan festival covered with a Christian veneer. The Reverend Increase Mather of Boston, for example, accurately observed in 1687 that the early Christians who first observed the Nativity on December 25 did not do so “thinking that Christ was born in that Month, but because Heathens Saturnalia was that time kept in Rome, and they were willing to have those Pagan Holidays metamorphosed into Christian [ones].”2

>>>>The following except demonstrates how Christmas required political influence to over rule ecclesiastical preference in order to amalgamate it into popular culture.

Once, for a few strange years, the curtain of Puritan suppression was lifted, and not by choice. By 1680 it was becoming clear that the Restoration government in London would not continue to tolerate the Puritan political culture that had been established in New England. Knowing that its official charter of incorporation might be abrogated, in 1681 the Massachusetts General Court reluctantly revoked several of the colony’s laws that were most obnoxious to the English authorities. (One of the laws was thus revoked was the act banning the celebration of Christmas.) But this was not enough to save the charter. It was abrogated in 1684,. And during the three years from 1687 through 1689, Massachusetts was governed directly from London, as part of a short-lived entity known as the “Dominion of New England.”

What happened during these three years was deeply humiliating to the Puritans. The hated governor of the Dominion, Sir Edmund Andros, ruled most of New England (along with New York). From his headquarters in Boston, Governor Andros attempted to impose English Law and custom in the very seat of Puritan power. On Christmas Day, 1686, for example, two religious services were performed at the Boston Townhouse, and Andros attended both of them, with ‘a Red-Coat [soldier] going on his right hand and Capt., George on the left.”

But Governor Andros did not simply impose Anglican practices on a populace that was universally resistant to them. Once effect of his rule was to permit the public expression of a set of seasonal practices that were associated with the popular culture of seventeenth-century England. Those expressions of the popular culture could not have surfaced openly without the legal protection offered by the Andros regime. Under its protective mantle, during this brief period, it was possible for the first time in Massachusetts to act out heterodox rituals in public. A few Bostonians celebrated Shrove Tuesday (Mardi Gras) by dancing in the streets,. And maypole ws erected in Charlsestown. Ppg. 18-19
 
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Jipsah

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Note, the word is Arians, with an "i", as in Arius; it is unrelated to the ancient Aryan people or various racialist theories concerning them.
My bad, I've corrected it. Thanks!
 
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Strong in Him

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It demonstrates that pre-Dickens era Protestants didn't celebrate Christmas at all.

Again, so?
We can, are and have been doing. Here in the UK, it's nearly Boxing day.
 
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Lulav

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Remember this is GT and all Christians are allowed to express their
opinions within the rules of the forum. Goading and Flaming another
member for their beliefs is childish and will result in warnings.
I am reopening this thread.
Please continue posting in a mature manner.

Thank you​
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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View attachment 167900

Remember this is GT and all Christians are allowed to express their
opinions within the rules of the forum. Goading and Flaming another
member for their beliefs is childish and will result in warnings.
I am reopening this thread.
Please continue posting in a mature manner.

Thank you​
I love you hat!
 
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