Just out of curiosity...

[Gyasi]

If the Holy Spirit leads people to the "true faith" why is it that there are so many denominations of Christianity? Could the Holy Spirit be confused, or could it be that man only thinks that he's being led into the "true faith" by the HS when really only his heart is doing so?

 

[ivebeenshown]

If the Holy Spirit leads people to the "true faith" why is it that there are so many denominations of Christianity? Could the Holy Spirit be confused, or could it be that man only thinks that he's being led into the "true faith" by the HS when really only his heart is doing so?

The Holy Spirit is what lets a man confess that Jesus Christ is LORD... but the heart, and the mind, need to do 'works' you might say. "Love the LORD God with all thy mind", "Study to shew thyself approved."

2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

 

[cubinity]

So... the Holy Spirit tells people how to interpret Scripture, which is evident in the fact that their is only one legitimate interpretation of Scripture.

Since I am not inclined to assume I am wrong, I conclude my interpretation is correct.

Since I believe the Holy Spirit's interpretation is the only right interpretation, and I assume my interpretation is correct, then my interpretation must be the same as the Holy Spirit's interpretation.

Since my interpretation matches the Holy Spirit's interpretation, if your interpretation differs in any way from my interpretation, you must be wrong.

Or... the Holy Spirit does not dictate what you or I believe. We are free-thinking and capable of interpreting for ourselves. Therefore, all of our interpretations contribute something to our community of believers.

Just some thoughts...

 

[Gyasi]

So... the Holy Spirit tells people how to interpret Scripture, which is evident in the fact that their is only one legitimate interpretation of Scripture.

Since I am not inclined to assume I am wrong, I conclude my interpretation is correct.

Since I believe the Holy Spirit's interpretation is the only right interpretation, and I assume my interpretation is correct, then my interpretation must be the same as the Holy Spirit's interpretation.

Since my interpretation matches the Holy Spirit's interpretation, if your interpretation differs in any way from my interpretation, you must be wrong.

Or... the Holy Spirit does not dictate what you or I believe. We are free-thinking and capable of interpreting for ourselves. Therefore, all of our interpretations contribute something to our community of believers.

Just some thoughts...

The only problem is that many people claim to be influenced by the Holy Spirit in their interpretations of scripture and yet there are so many different denominations which interpret many different things about different passages. Some of these people are also intensely convinced that it's the HS that guides them in their interpretations even if that interpretation is contrary to something said prior! So, would it not be fair to say that these people are not guided by the spirit but only by their fleshly desires?

 

[cubinity]

would it not be fair to say that these people are not guided by the spirit but only by their fleshly desires?

Is it fair to say the drivers should be courteous, particular when they merge? Sure, it's fair to say, but that doesn't mean that saying it is going to make any difference at all. People are still going to cut you off.

Yeah, it's sad, but it's the moral hazard created by freedom. What can you do?

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

 

[Gyasi]

PilgrimToChrist gets it

 

[ebia]

If the Holy Spirit leads people to the "true faith" why is it that there are so many denominations of Christianity? Could the Holy Spirit be confused, or could it be that man only thinks that he's being led into the "true faith" by the HS when really only his heart is doing so?

Most of us are not so naive and simplistic as to think that the Holy Spririt completely overrides our human fallibility and limitions. or that things are as individualistic as your question implies.

Of course there are a few that think that way - generally they think they are the only ones led by the Spirit.

 

[cubinity]

PilgrimToChrist gets it

Then I do not... please explain.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Then I do not... please explain.

The picture is a classic woodcut from Paradise Lost which shows satan's fall from Heaven because of his pride.

Not everyone is led to the True Faith because of pride.

Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it! Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be among you lying teachers, who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their riotousnesses, through whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you.
...
And especially them who walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government, audacious, self willed, they fear not to bring in sects, blaspheming.

If people humble themselves and open their hearts to God, they will be lead to the True Faith. This past Sunday, my pastor opened his sermon with a quote from My Sister, Saint Therese, I had this book which I bought when I ordered several books at once from TAN, and I had not yet read it. So this morning, having the day off, I decided to read some of it. It made me want to read Story of a Soul again. A picture of St. Therese is next to my bed and she is an inspiration, I read her story last year at the monastery when I was the same age as she was when she died (24 years, 9 months). How little I had accomplished, what a waste my life had been! She is such a beautiful example of the power of humility, seeking a child-like but mature faith with such supernatural insight into the spiritual life which far betrays her years or status (she died still as a novice, not a full nun). She embraced humility and suffering so beautifully, that is why people have recognized the working of God in her life even among such a pious family.

he continually emphasizes, through her 'Little Doctrine', our fundamental need as creatures to trust neither in our own power nor in our merits. We should, rather, lean entirely on divine grace which alone has the power to inspire, to assist, and to strengthen our wills and to crown all our efforts in this life.

We are not excusing or making light of our sin by the mere fact that we recognize or even love our weakness and accept all its consequences. No, in this way, as a matter of fact, we become established in truth and we are saved from all self-delusion. Then from the very depths of our misery, which we then recognize better than ever before, there springs up a cry of daring confidence in the infinite mercy of God. That pays in full for all our weaknesses, for all our fits of depression, and all our temptations, for all the trials, imperfections, and falls to which our frail human nature is heir. It throws light on the matter to learn that the novices to whom Saint Therese used to address these counsels were particularly inclined to a spirit of discouragement because of such human frailties.

The closing paragraph of Chapter X of the 'Autobiography', with their moving commentary on the mercy of God, and other Theresian texts, prove beyond question that with slight modifications this doctrine concerning our attitude towards our falls and weakness applies even to our sins and back-slidings of the past. It makes no difference if our sins be as crushing as those of the Samaritan woman or the woman taken in adultery, of the good thief on the cross, or of the penitent sinner in the desert. Once again, we do not love our sins; no, we bitterly repent of them and strive with all our will to prevent their recurrence. But, far from despairing over them or from giving into proud and disagreeable impatience because of them, we use them rather to deepen our distrust of self. We then go on to a greater confidence in God's merciful love which forgives completely, raises us up at once and overwhelms us with His favours and with His love. That makes up for everything. Therese quotes in this connection the celebrated maxim of Saint Augustine who, interpreting and completing Saint Paul's thought, writes: "For those who love God, all things -- even sin -- work together unto good."

If we recognize our own personal weakness and sinfulness, we can realize how much we need to turn to God. Pride prevents us from turning to God.

Two men went up into the temple to pray: the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

The Pharisee standing, prayed thus with himself: O God, I give thee thanks that I am not as the rest of men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, as also is this publican. I fast twice in a week: I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not so much as lift up his eyes towards heaven; but struck his breast, saying: O God, be merciful to me a sinner. I say to you, this man went down into his house justified rather than the other: because every one that exalteth himself, shall be humbled: and he that humbleth himself, shall be exalted.

And they brought unto him also infants, that he might touch them. Which when the disciples saw, they rebuked them. But Jesus, calling them together, said: Suffer children to come to me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Amen, I say to you: Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a child, shall not enter into it.

Amen I say to you, that the publicans and the harlots shall go into the kingdom of God before you.

To be a saint is to love God. Now what is easier than to love a God who is infinitely good and who loves us with infinite love?

Our hearts were made expressly to love Him, just as our eyes were made to see, our ears to hear. Surely there can be no difficulty in doing that for which we were expressly made.

2. To be a saint is to do all our actions for love of God. He made us to love and serve Him. He gave us our wonderful faculties to use for our own happiness and benefit, but He asks us to do all we do for love of Him. In return, He will give us a rich reward for our every action. This is what St. Paul tells us to do: "Whatever you do in word or work, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ." (Col. 3:17).

Thus another infallible and easy way to become a saint is to do all we do for love of God.

3. God has given us a beautiful religion made especially for our poor human hearts, a religion of peace and love, a religion which gives us abundant helps to correct our faults and defects, a religion that gives strength to the weakest and consoles the most broken-hearted. Those who practice this all-wise and consoling religion are truly saints.

The one difficulty in performing these three duties is not so much our weakness as our lamentable ignorance. We do not love God, simply because we do not know Him. We have been living with utterly erroneous ideas about Him. We look on God as a stern God, a God of majesty, whom we reverence, but fear; we only think of Him as a God of justice who punishes our sins. there we stop. That, as such, is a caricature of God, for God above all is a God of sweetness, mercy and love, a God who loves us most tenderly and desires our love in return.

Why are people not led to to the True Faith and remain in atheism, paganism or heresy? Pride. Why are Catholics not led to a deeper faith? Pride.

But if, like fools, they are ungrateful, and ignore Me and the labors of My servants done for them, that which was given them, through mercy, turns to their own ruin and judgment, not through defect of mercy, nor through defect of him who implored the mercy for the ingrate, but solely through the man's own wretchedness and hardness, with which, with the hands of his free will, he has covered his heart, as it were, with a diamond, which, if it be not broken by the Blood, can in no way be broken. And yet, I say to you, that, in spite of his hardness of heart, he can use his free will while he has time, praying for the Blood of My Son, and let him with his own hand apply It to the diamond over his heart and shiver it, and he will receive the imprint of the Blood which has been paid for him.

Pride hardens the heart like a diamond, preventing God from working in the soul. Humility is the cure for pride and the source of so much grace. We must have humility before we can have true charity.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

Is St Therese's life, a good read for Catholic [or non-Catholic] gents at all; or would it not be so? I am curious. I was uncertain if her life is applicable to females only, rather than necessarily the gents. I always love good orthodox pious Roman Catholic religious books.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Is St Therese's life, a good read for Catholic gents at all; or would it not be? I am curious. I always love good orthodox pious Roman Catholic religious books.

She has a casual tone, even more than St. Theresa of Avila, as her writings were not originally intended for the public. But if you have the perception to see past that and get what she is talking about, she is certainly profound (hence why she was named a Doctor of the Church).

I have an special love for the Carmelite tradition -- St. Theresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, St. Therese of the Child Jesus, and the wonderful book Divine Intimacy by Fr. Gabriel of St. Mary Magdalene, OCD. I had never had that close of a relationship with St. Benedict or the Benedictine tradition, though my visit to the Clear Creek Monastery (Our Lady of the Annunciation) changed that and I use the Benedictine Office rather than the Roman. Still, if I was going to become a religious or tertiary, it would probably be Carmelite.

(I hadn't run across this Carmel of Byzantine Catholic nuns in Pennsylvania before, quite interesting.)

 

[Virgil the Roman]

Nice. I have not either, although, I am uncertain how far Sugerloaf is from my place of residence. I have met a nun of St Basil [not a whole order, though].

 

[Secundulus]

Is St Therese's life, a good read for Catholic [or non-Catholic] gents at all; or would it not be so? I am curious. I was uncertain if her life is applicable to females only, rather than necessarily the gents. I always love good orthodox pious Roman Catholic religious books.

I read it a few months ago. It is a good read for anybody.

 

[Stryder06]

-snip- or could it be that man only thinks that he's being led into the "true faith" by the HS when really only his heart is doing so?

That there sir is the answer. The amount of denominations has nothing to do with anything. Christ has people everywhere and they are being led in truth as fast, or as slow, as the Spirit needs them to go. Christ said that the Spirit works like the wind. Just because there are large amounts of disagreement does not mean the Spirit is not leading His people into truth.

Because the heart of man is wicked, there will always be those who go against the word of God and who lead others astray. These deceptions are not so blatant that they are easily identifiable, as such the Spirit moves as needed to get those who are searching for Christ to the place they need to be.

 

[bling]

Unfortunately, we mostly study scripture to justify what we are doing or to win an argument. Do you think the Holy Spirit can get involved in that study with those objectives?

 

[ivebeenshown]

I think when we bring 'pride' into this discussion... if we shouldn't be 'proud' (which we are to only boast in Christ) but instead humble ourselves to the teachings of others and not think for ourselves in any way (going against 'study to shew thyself approved') couldn't we be led astray by false prophets?

Isn't there a difference between 'pride' and 'taking heed'?

Important 'take heeds':

Hebrews 3:12
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Titus 1:14
Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

1 Timothy 4:16
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

1 Timothy 1:4
Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

Galatians 5:15
But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

1 Corinthians 8:9
But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

1 Corinthians 3:10
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

Luke 21:34
And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

Luke 17:3
Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

Luke 11:35
Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.

Mark 8:15
And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.

Matthew 6:1
Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.​

 

[sunlover1]

The only problem is that many people claim to be influenced by the Holy Spirit in their interpretations of scripture and yet there are so many different denominations which interpret many different things about different passages.

I know, right?
And same thing with writings of the ECF's
One church will interpret it one way, another another way.

Some of these people are also intensely convinced that it's the HS that guides them in their interpretations even if that interpretation is contrary to something said prior!

I KNOW! People can be so goofy can't they?... well, 'us' I guess that would be.. lol
Since obviously you and I too, can be intensly convinced about something (and wrong)

So, would it not be fair to say that these people are not guided by the spirit but only by their fleshly desires?

Some.
Some have actually "hardened their hearts" to the point that God's done with it.
The Lord has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts--
so that their eyes cannot see, and their hearts cannot understand,
and they cannot turn to me and have me heal them."
NOT good.

Others.. follow the voice of God into truth.
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.