Just how Biblical is the whole "no sex until after the wedding ceremony" thing?

[HiLo]

I think this is solid advice. You are getting married, so why not wait..it will be more special on your honeymoon.

Why would this be solid advice? It implies "work" for salvation. "Better safe than sorry" is not a faith based thinking, it's a works based thinking. "If I'm wrong, I might go to hell." Really? Is that what Christ bought for us on the cross. The following of rules to earn our way to heaven? Some people really need to free themselves from the mind state of Judaism. We are not Jews. We are saved by faith. If you follow your heart and are proven wrong on Judgement day, you are STILL forgiven. We will be judged by our hearts, not on our level of knowledge and understanding of the bible and certainly not by the oral laws and traditions of man.

 

[brohammer26]

Why would this be solid advice? It implies "work" for salvation. "Better safe than sorry" is not a faith based thinking, it's a works based thinking. "If I'm wrong, I might go to hell." Really? Is that what Christ bought for us on the cross. The following of rules to earn our way to heaven? Some people really need to free themselves from the mind state of Judaism. We are not Jews. We are saved by faith. If you follow your heart and are proven wrong on Judgement day, you are STILL forgiven. We will be judged by our hearts, not on our level of knowledge and understanding of the bible.

Yes but salvation requires a repeantant heart as well. That is how I understand it. That doesnt mean that we wont sin and no one is without sin..it just means we are moving in that direction. Now I dont know if having sex before marriage is a sin or not...I dont see it in the bible..that is what I was argueing. It still may be a sin so for the OP that is having a hard time decideing...why not just wait and not have it on his conscience? I for one dont think it is necessary to have the legal documents of a marriage to be married in god's eye...but if that person feels they do than let them live by it.

 

[hedrick]

Premarital Sex = Fornication.
Fornication = Sex Before Marriage.

inappropriate contenteia is not identical to sex before marriage. It means illicit sex. The root meaning is actually prostitution, but in normal Jewish usage it is more general. It may include premarital sex, but it's not defined as premarital sex.

We still have to remember that we all should obey God's commandments rather we like it or not. I have to learn to like it, so I hope he continues to like it too. He should get married, but if he doesn't feel that he should do a ceremony, than whatever, but he still needs a paper showing that he is legally married. A small wedding can be an option for him.

Huh? I can understand people saying there has to be a public commitment, but paperwork? How is that Biblical?

Of course in the OT, people like Abraham and David have a variety of arrangements. Concubines are quite common. By definition they aren't wives, but they are people to whom there is some degree of commitment, and with whom sex seems to have been tolerated. However it wasn't necessarily permanent, as Hagar found out.

The point isn't that you should keep a concubine, but that the Bible doesn't mandate any one form of recognizing a relationship where sex is appropriate. I do in fact recommend a public commitment. But the Bible isn't as focused on a modern Western marriage ceremony as some people seem to think.

 

[HiLo]

Yes but salvation requires a repeantant heart as well. That is how I understand it. That doesnt mean that we wont sin and no one is without sin..it just means we are moving in that direction. Now I dont know if having sex before marriage is a sin or not...I dont see it in the bible..that is what I was argueing. It still may be a sin so for the OP that is having a hard time decideing...why not just wait and not have it on his conscience? I for one dont think it is necessary to have the legal documents of a marriage to be married in god's eye...but if that person feels they do than let them live by it.

Repentence devoid of love, is not true repentance. Trying to be good enough, is not repentance. It's working to earn ones salvation. When the Spirit comes into your life, He brings love not law. That love, through the heart, will guide you into all righteousness and truth. Love does not lead to sin. Which is why love, is the fulfillment of the law. I do however agree, that if you believe it is a sin in your heart, then it is. Why would you violate that which is in your heart. But question, is it your heart that says so, or your mind through earthly ideology.

Good morning btw!

 

[Radagast]

Google Translate

If you put the word πορνεία the greek version of inappropriate contenteia of the word the direct translation is prostitution.

That's a translator for MODERN Greek. The New Testament is written in KOINE Greek. The lexicon entries I posted are more relevant.

 

[HiLo]

inappropriate contenteia is not identical to sex before marriage. It means illicit sex. The root meaning is actually prostitution, but in normal Jewish usage it is more general. It may include premarital sex, but it's not defined as premarital sex.

The closest definition one can use, is "sexual immorality", which is specifically defined in Leviticus. I don't agree with this definition but regardless, "Pre-marital" sex, in no way, shape, form or fashion, is listed. And even if it were, we are free from the law, so it really is a moot point.

 

[brohammer26]

I get the same for KOINE greek with athe babylon translator.
But it is doing the same thing where it clumps prostitution and fornication in the same definition.
πορνεία

n. prostitution, fornication, white slavery, harlotry [sl.], whoredom [sl.], whoring [sl.]


x
πορνείο

n. brothel, bagnio, bawdy house [sl.], whorehouse [sl.], call house [sl.], crib [sl.]

But I find it to be rather confusing how one word can have numerous different meanings...it seems people can interpret it however they want to.

 

[brohammer26]

Repentence devoid of love, is not true repentance. Trying to be good enough, is not repentance. It's working to earn ones salvation. When the Spirit comes into your life, He brings love not law. That love, through the heart, will guide you into all righteousness and truth. Love does not lead to sin. Which is why love, is the fulfillment of the law. I do however agree, that if you believe it is a sin in your heart, then it is. Why would you violate that which is in your heart. But question, is it your heart that says so, or your mind through earthly ideology.

Good morning btw!

Yes but there has to be effort on our part...
I think like you say the holy spirit does it works. I have changed quite radically since I have come to know jesus..I have had some failings for sure, I just see the world different now.

In Biblical Hebrew, the idea of repentance is represented by two verbs: שוב shuv (to return) and נחם nicham (to feel sorrow). In the New Testament, the word translated as 'repentance' is the Greek word μετάνοια (metanoia), "after/behind one's mind", which is a compound word of the preposition 'meta' (after, with), and the verb 'noeo' (to perceive, to think, the result of perceiving or observing). In this compound word the preposition combines the two meanings of time and change, which may be denoted by 'after' and 'different'; so that the whole compound means: 'to think differently after'.

The whole idea is to change the way we think and where the intent of our heart is. That is how I interpret it.

 

[HiLo]

Yes but there has to be effort on our part...
I think like you say the holy spirit does it works. I have changed quite radically since I have come to know jesus..I have had some failings for sure, I just see the world different now.

Yes and that "effort" is in loving one another as ourself. Not in trying to follow some old Jewish law, that we can't keep anyway. We are free from the law for that reason. There really are no but's about it. We are either under the law or under Grace. The old covenant or the new, but we can't be under both.

The whole idea is to change the way we think and where the intent of our heart is. That is how I interpret it.

That is exactly how I interpret it. Turn away from your wicked hearts. A wicked heart being one devoid of love. And turn into righteousness, which is love for one another. By operating in love of one another, you wouldn't sin against your brother or sister.

Being free from the law means I don't need a law to tell me what is right and wrong. I don't need a law to tell me cheating on my wife, or stealing from my neighbor would be wrong. Love does not lead me into such things. In fact, love leads me away from such. The more I share that love toward one another, the further away from sin I find myself, by default.

 

[brohammer26]

You make good points and I find the readings in Romans to validate that. Obviosuly the law has impossible standards, but those standards have to be high because it is perfection to god...I dont think it necessarily to make any effort because we have to...it is because we want to. I think that is a sign that repeantance has taken place. Ypu provide an interesting take on it and I hope that is what is transforming in me to where it is effortless for me to stay away from sin as much as possible. I was more referring to the attitude of "license to sin" that has to be avoided..that is the effort part that I think is necessary.

 

[HiLo]

You make good points and I find the readings in Romans to validate that...I just feel that we have to make an effort. Obviosuly the law has impossible standards, but those standards have to be high because it is perfection to god...I dont think it necessarily because we have to...it is because we want to. I think that is a sign that repeantance has taken place.

If one of the ways you choose to show God you love him is by following your understanding of written law, it can't be wrong if it's guided by the heart. To each his or her own. It is not a "mature" view of scripture IMO, but it took Paul many years to come to this understanding as well.

When we stop "trying" through will power, God can operate through His power. To use will power is to lack faith in God and shows a fear of walking out in that faith. Trusting that love, all by itself, will NEVER lead you astray. That is the promise.

It's when following written law guided by fear of hell, that fear replaces love in the heart and the true command to love one another as ourself, is abandoned in exchange for works and/or worldly acceptance based on outward appearance. All while the heart remains filthy and wicked as ever. We love one another because that is what God commanded and to love one another is to show God how much you love and appreciate him.

I mean, come on let's be honest. Loving some people and producing the fruits of the Spirit, can be VERY difficult. It is love of God to overcome and still produce good fruit. Fighting the good fight to the bitter end, is never letting the world break you of that love. No matter how evil and nasty the world may be toward us.

 

[brohammer26]

ok yes but how do you explain Romans 6? Where is says that even though we are under grace we shouldnt live freely in sin. What you are saying is if I live in full faith with no effort on my part, that jesus will guide me away from sin? I mean it sounds good and maybe something I will understand more in time...I have only been 'saved' or have had any understanding of god or Jesus since Feburary of this year. I know Paul mentions how he always ends up doing the things he hates and doesnt do things he wants and grace has saved him from that...but yet his heart is in the place of not wanting those things and only the 'sin' inside of him that is causing it...not his own wickedness.

 

[HiLo]

ok yes but how do you explain Romans 6? Where is says that even though we are under grace we shouldnt live freely in sin.

I'm so glad you asked. I was just getting ready to add this for clarity.

When someone says, "I am free from the law" but then still continues to not operate in love of one another, that is to play God for a fool. Your heart is still wicked and does not have the love of the Spirit. We are free from the law because we love one another as ourselves, not because we are free to just do whatever we want to anyone.

Our what you are saying if I live in full faith with no effort on my part, that jesus will guide me away from sin?

That is exactly what I'm saying because love does not lead to sin. Love by nature, travels the opposite path of destruction. Our effort is simply in how we treat one another. Being Christ-like, not being religious "Christians" tied to rules and regulations.

I mean it sounds good and maybe something I will understand more in time...I have only been 'saved' or have had any understanding of god or Jesus since Feburary of this year. I know he mentions how he always ends up doing the things he hates and doesnt do things he wants and grace has saved him from that...but yet his heart is in the place of not wanting to those things and only the 'sin' inside of him that is causing it.

I admit that I am better at explaining it, than I am at doing it in my life and is only within the last few years or so that I finally walked out from under the yoke of the law. It was scary for me because of the lifetime of fear that was injected from the organized religion, that I was indoctrinated with. Fear is not of God. And when I realized that rejecting religious ideology was not the same as rejecting God, Christ or the bible, I was free to read the bible through the lens of love and not through the lens of judgement and condemnation.

Oh how beautiful the words become on that day. To see that the bible is not a law book. It is a guide to lead us to love of one another. That's why Christ said, "All the laws and the Prophets hang on these two commands." We by default fulfill the law, when we simply love. God will do the rest and God is not a liar. Put fear under your feet and KNOW that the victory over sin and death, has already been won. Thus you don't need to fight a battle that Christ already won. To fight that battle, is to pull Christ off the cross and pretend it never happened.

 

[brohammer26]

Thanks for the words and perspective it resonates with me.

 

[true2theword]

So I'm engaged. Me and my Fiance have been engaged for about 4 months now. Let me start this thread off with the understanding for the readers that we have NOT had sex, nor have we fondled/sexually touched each other. We are both pure in this relationship.

But therein lies my question and curiosity. See, I'm the type of a man (as we all should be) that has read the Bible for myself. I study it. I ponder it. I have it written in my heart, as the Lord hath commanded. But nowhere do I see in the Bible where it says that sex is WRONG for two people who have committed themselves to each other under God.

The best example I have is Baptism. We know from the Word that baptism is an outward expression of an inward change that has already occurred. That means, it's just an example.

How is a wedding ceremony any different? Have the two people already not committed themselves to God and to each other? You don't just go through a relationship, and a courtship, AND an engagement STILL unsure about your commitments to each other. That's absurd.

I mean, you don't just step up to the plate of marriage and the pedestal and THEN decide, "You know what? Yeah. I think I'll commit." No sir, you've already done that. No one makes that choice as they say I do. You've already made it.

Now, seeing as how sexual intercourse is a sign of unity and oneness between God and us, why is the wedding ceremony that which makes this official..in God's eyes?

Nowhere in the Bible does it say a wedding CEREMONY makes two people married. It's a commitment that the two people have already made.

The more I think about it, the more it seems like it's just a man made tradition to keep adultery and fornication in check. If I'm wrong, please, provide scripture that proves my ignorance. I want to hear it.

Because when I committed myself to my fiance, it was between her, I, and God. Why, Biblically, is that not good enough? Where in the Bible is that not good enough for God?

why not run to the justice of the peace and get married, its obvious your burning with lust, your not supposed to be sexually touching eachother either this is not purity............I'm not one to talk on this matter as I fell into sin before marriage, but we were engaged also.........it was only 65 dollars and we were married, to share all the good things married people do............we had a great formal wedding sometime latter

 

[Girder of Loins]

Exactly. With marriage you make a commitment and agree that the community or government can (at least partially) hold you to your word.

If you can walk away at any time, there's no real commitment.

False, you can nullify a marriage and just "walk away".

Commitment isn't something you FEEL, it's something you DO.

Commitment is something you feel. The doing stems from the commitment. Not the other way around.

 

[The Fire Rises]

I'm so glad you asked. I was just getting ready to add this for clarity.

When someone says, "I am free from the law" but then still continues to not operate in love of one another, that is to play God for a fool. Your heart is still wicked and does not have the love of the Spirit. We are free from the law because we love one another as ourselves, not because we are free to just do whatever we want to anyone.



That is exactly what I'm saying because love does not lead to sin. Love by nature, travels the opposite path of destruction. Our effort is simply in how we treat one another. Being Christ-like, not being religious "Christians" tied to rules and regulations.



I admit that I am better at explaining it, than I am at doing it in my life and is only within the last few years or so that I finally walked out from under the yoke of the law. It was scary for me because of the lifetime of fear that was injected from the organized religion, that I was indoctrinated with. Fear is not of God. And when I realized that rejecting religious ideology was not the same as rejecting God, Christ or the bible, I was free to read the bible through the lens of love and not through the lens of judgement and condemnation.

Oh how beautiful the words become on that day. To see that the bible is not a law book. It is a guide to lead us to love of one another. That's why Christ said, "All the laws and the Prophets hang on these two commands." We by default fulfill the law, when we simply love. God will do the rest and God is not a liar. Put fear under your feet and KNOW that the victory over sin and death, has already been won. Thus you don't need to fight a battle that Christ already won. To fight that battle, is to pull Christ off the cross and pretend it never happened.

I'm sorry if this is getting off-topic (which it is) but I'm just curious about your view on this. What you said, makes perfect sense to me. And yes, it's one thing to talk a good game, but actually living that kind of life is another matter entirely, and simply cannot be achieved without faith in Christ. It doesn't take any faith to write about this stuff on a forum.

I think countless christians go through this struggle, trying to understand things that seem contradicting and almost paradoxical in nature. It's incredibly frustrating, as I'm sure you're aware, and I'm still struggling to understand why it must be so difficult to simply understand what it means to be a christian. I guess partially because of religion's massive influence on our culture. All of these conditions make it incredibly hard for christians to be brought up in the right kind of environment. And even if they do, they're almost certain to hear the religious viewpoints of the other side.

With all this being said, do you think God takes any of this into account? I mean, as you said yourself, you're just now understanding how to begin living like Christ after years of indoctrination. That situation and those circumstances were completely out of your control, I mean God put you in that situation to start with.

Can He really condemn those who don't live like His son simply because they don't know how?? I have seen many fellow believers struggle so much, trying to understand the difference between living under the law and under the Spirit, how it applies to their life and this world. Say Jesus decides to make his appearance today.

Would all those people still struggling with what's right and wrong really be sent to Hell? Or will their reward in heaven just not be as great as it could have been, simply due to the fact that they were "too slow" in coming to understand everything about the Christian faith.
Maybe I should make a separate thread soley about this...

 

[aiki]

Over and over, when the Bible speaks of a couple coming together as a married pair, "betrothal," or "espousal," or "giving in marriage" is mentioned. It is this giving of a woman to a man in marriage by the parents that is the one thing in the biblical record that has consistently marked out marriage from mere fornicating and/or shacking up. You will not find a single place in all of the Bible where it is ever suggested that mere sexual activity, however committed, formally unites a couple in marriage. Always there is a betrothal that marks out a married couple from a couple that is just fornicating. This giving in marriage is not some cultural peculiarity that one is free to ignore; it is the procedure demonstrated by God in Eden by which a man and woman are formally wedded one to the other. You don't need a marriage license, or flowers, or a wedding dress, or even a priest, but, if you intend to be obedient to the example of Scripture, you absolutely do need to be formally espoused to your husband or wife before sexual relations between you occur.

Selah.

 

[aiki]

Who cares? Why go around and categorize people? Why not just love them encourage them and motivate them?

I am encouraging people - to obey the edicts of God's Word. Loving others, as far as I'm concerned, always entails urging obedience to God; for this is how the Bible tells us we show our love for God.

I guess if you were going to admonish them you might want to know who's unmarried so you could offer that godly instruction. But admonishment really needs to start with "love your neighbor" be good to your friends, make time for the people in your life, stand up against error, get to the root of what truth is etc. etc. etc. not do this ceremony, be at church every week, don't question the pastor, and just be the goody two shoes sterotypical christian. anyone can do that. some just don't want to. and others like me see the error for what it is and will never be that out of principle.

I'm sorry, but I have never proposed anything like what you describe above. You are arguing against a position I have not offered.

But really you will know who's really married and who's not. Watch how they treat each other. Note the respect, the willingness to make time for the other person, the ability to compromise. The skills that show they have or will be able to keep a long term relationship. These are the married people.

Hardly. I know of several long-term common-law relationships in which you can observe all these things.

Selah.

 

[Girder of Loins]

Over and over, when the Bible speaks of a couple coming together as a married pair, "betrothal," or "espousal," or "giving in marriage" is mentioned. It is this giving of a woman to a man in marriage by the parents that is the one thing in the biblical record that has consistently marked out marriage from mere fornicating and/or shacking up. You will not find a single place in all of the Bible where it is ever suggested that mere sexual activity, however committed, formally unites a couple in marriage. Always there is a betrothal that marks out a married couple from a couple that is just fornicating. This giving in marriage is not some cultural peculiarity that one is free to ignore; it is the procedure demonstrated by God in Eden by which a couple is formally wedded one to the other. You don't need a marriage license, or flowers, or a wedding dress, or even a priest, but, if you intend to be obedient to the example of Scripture, you absolutely do need to be formally espoused to your husband or wife before sexual relations between you occur.

Selah.

I agree that sex isn't the union. It is something far more spiritual than sex. My disagreement is on the question: what is marriage?

Is it just a binding legal agreement between two people so that they enjoy tax breaks and benefits? Or is it a commitment between two people that may or may not be publicly announced, but is understood by those immediately affected(the husband and wife)? If nothing on this earth lasts, then why is marriage based on something that won't last? Why would God give such a precious and passionate thing such a meaningless base? I know we probably won't be married in Heaven, but the question still remains.

And looking to the story of Adam and Eve, there was no license, no ceremony, no nothing! It was simply two people committed to one another. Yes, God "gave her away", but if a woman has no father, does she not get to be married??? THAT MAKES NO SENSE!!!!!! I guess I'm just frustrated at the legalism in this thinking...