John Piper on the Prosperity Gospel

[Paladin_Mark]

Im not up for debate , but i'd like to know how do you feel / respond to what John Piper says about the prosperity gospel ? Would you retort / how would you retort?

Peace, Thanks,

Mark

 

[Deborah72]

I'd rather hear a donkey bray at midnight in a tin barn.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

...

 

[KleinerApfel]

Im not up for debate , but i'd like to know how do you feel / respond to what John Piper says about the prosperity gospel ? Would you retort / how would you retort?


Peace, Thanks,

Mark

You're not allowed to debate, and I'm not allowed to debate here either because I'm not WoF, but I will say in response to your video -



I don't think John Piper knows anything of the heart of WoF teaching, and maybe you don't know any of the people posting here regularly, because that clip is meaningless in the context of the love, faith, power, and glory to God that I have found among these people.

Maybe there are some who have perverted the teachings and come up with harmful versions, but that doesn't justify vilifying the whole church.

Now, go and find something more positive to watch on Youtube!

 

[Christina M]

Sue, that was a really nice thing to say, thanks!

 

[Trish1947]

After the first few words, I saw that
the heart of the message was made
void by his ignorance of the Word.

Not unusual.

I find it sad that the Gospel now is to preach
poverty to the poor, sickness to the sick,
opression to the opressed, to keep bound
those that are bound, it's the "gospel" they
put their hope in.

 

[iafic]

Oh my gosh...while watching that video I was eating and as the screen showed the words about a little girl being thrown from a window and being smashed on the ground........I had to stop chewing. My heart started beating really fast. THAT is what he thinks glorifies God? DEATH and TRAGIDY is what he thinks is what God is all about. I started to cry.

Folks, the last time I saw a young 3 year old boy struck by a car....caught in the wheel well...dragged til the car stopped...layed mangled in a pool of blood....I stepped forward with the faith God gave me and he was raised from the dead. THAT my friend, is where God is glorified.

How on earth people are comforted by these sick doctorines.

Love death, hate prosperity??????

The Bible says "Wo unto the man who calls good evil, and evil good."

 

[SavedByGrace3]

...

 

[victoryword]

I responded to a Piper article of a similar nature on the main forum some years ago. Here it is below:

Piper is a CALVINIST!!! While Calvinists are not the only critics of the Faith Movement, a lot of the criticisms as well as the distortion of pertinent facts seems come heavily from their camp. Piper is also one of those who believes that God was involved in the 9-11 incident, being in His sovereignty, responsible for it. Any theologian that accuses (my word) God like that has to be taken with a grain of salt when it comes to his views on brothers and sisters of a different theological persuasion. Nevertheless, let's examine some of his article:

John Piper on the wealth-and-prosperity doctrine:
But a wealth-and-prosperity doctrine is afoot today, shaped by the half truth that says, "We glorify God with our money by enjoying thankfully all the things he enables us to buy. Why should a son of the King live like a pauper?" And so on.

It is true that some EXTEMISTS may teach a doctrine of prosperity for selfish gain, but this is far from being a staple of propsperity teaching. Major Faith Teachers actually dispute such a wicked notion as can be seen from the quotes below:

The faith message is not the only message in the Word of God, but some have latched onto the faith of God - what it can get them, and so forth - until they have perverted this greatest truth of God's Word. (Kenneth Hagin Jr. Itching Ears, P. 7, 1982)​

For the last two years I've told our RHEMA students, "If you came here with ears itching to get faith so you can drive Cadillacs, fly airplanes, or have million-dollar homes, go home. Or else reach up, pull off those itching ears, and say, 'I'm here to receive what God has for me.' Pp. 17, 18 (Kenneth Hagin Jr., Itching Ears, 1982)​

... what has happened is that a lot of Christians have made prosperity a thing for me, myself, and I - us three. They have made the prosperity message a way to get bigger houses, newer cars, more designer clothes, and a nice bank account. Many have forgotten about those in the world who don't know Jesus, and are lost and on their way to hell. (Fred Price, "The Purpose of Prosperity," Page 6)​

So as can be seen from the above quotes, Piper misleads his readers by painting with a wider brush than is necessary. He does not acknowledge the fact that even some prosperity proponents have stood up against the excess in the teaching. Many just totally ignore the late Kenneth Hagin Sr.'s lanmark book, The Midas Touch.

The true half of this is that we should give thanks for every good thing God enables us to have. That does glorify him. The false half is the subtle implication that God can be glorified in this way by all kinds of luxurious purchases.

This is a false presentation of what is being taught. What most of the faith teachers teach is that God is NOT glorified by His children being impoverished (If Piper differs on this then he really should read Matthew 7:7-11 and see how God portrays Himself as one who is better than human fathers). God is glorified when His children have more than enough - enough to take care of themselves and to be a blessing to others and the gospel. How does a Christian bring God any glory if he/she cannot pay his/her bills. That my friend is a bad testimony. Who wants your Christianity if it leaves you in poverty? Furthermore, God is glorified when we use the wealth He gives us for helping get the gospel out to the world. Fred Price further writes:

I believe that in the pursuit of wealth, the Church has lost sight of its priorities and has put seeking the lost on the backburner ... The wealth is for the body of Christ to have the funds to go into all the world and preach the gospel, and that is why God wants us to prosper. (Page 7)​

If this were true, Jesus would not have said, "Sell your possessions and give alms" (Luke 12:33). He would not have said, "Do not seek what you are to eat and what you are to drink" (Luke 12:29). John the Baptist would not have said, "He who has two coats, let him share with who has none" (Luke 3:11). The Son of Man would not have walked around with no place to lay his head (Luke 9:58). And Zacchaeus would not have given half his goods to the poor (Luke 19:8).

First Piper creates this strawman of his own making and then he finds out-of-context Scripture to refute it. Now THAT is funny. But let's look at these. If one would read Luke 12:25-32 they will see that verse 33 is not at all in dispute with TRUE WoF Prosperity teaching since the Faith teachers emphasize giving to help others above all else. Now if Piper wants to accuse the faith teachers of not selling all of their possession, let us at least see him provide an example of this. Besides, seeing that the disciples maintained their fishing equipment, clothes, swords, and other goodies, how LITERALLY did they take Jesus on that statement?


Those who read Luke 12 in context will also see that faith teachers preach these same verses like the one in 29 to show that we are not to worry about food and clothing because God is our provider. Luke 3:11 is also true to WoF propserity teaching. Copeland writes:

Begin to include the Body of Christ in your needs. Begin to include the lost in your needs. If a man came to you needing clothes and you didn’t have any clothes to give him, both of you would be in trouble. You need clothes for yourself, and you need to be able to supply him with clothes. (Kenneth Copeland, The Laws of Prosperity, p. 25)​

In luke 9:58, this is the classic "Jesus was living in poverty" teaching. yet, are we to read the gospels and see that Jesus NEVER had a place to sleep? Is Mr. Piper going without a nice comfortable bed? Finally, he takes Luke 19:8 out of context, forgetting that Zacchaeus first stole from those people and was simply making restitution for the evil that he had done now that he was saved. Therefore, Piper's strawman coupled with out-of-context Scripture is a sad declaration of how far one will go to dispute someone that they disagree with.

God is not glorified when we keep for ourselves (no matter how thankfully) what we ought to be using to alleviate the misery of unevangelized, uneducated, unmedicated, and unfed millions. The evidence that many professing Christians have been deceived by this doctrine is how little they give and how much they own. God has prospered them. And by an almost irresistible law of consumer culture (baptized by a doctrine of health, wealth, and prosperity) they have bought bigger (and more) houses, newer (and more) cars, fancier (and more) clothes, better (and more) meat, and all manner of trinkets and gadgets and containers and devices and equipment to make life more fun.

This man is so full of strawmen to knock down that it would be funny if it weren't so pathetic. Rather than the selfish gospel that Piper claims is being taught in all prosperity circles, Copeland writes:

If you know how to use God’s ability to receive healing and never use it to help anyone but yourself, then it won’t work foryou very long. If you can believe God for healing, help some-one else get healed. Spread it around! If you know how to believe God financially, start helping the people around you. You will begin to grow as you reach out to others. (Laws of Propserity, p. 22)​

True prosperity is the ability to look a man in the eye in his moment of impossibility and take his needs as your own. Those who are spiritual are to help those who are not. We are to bear one another’s burdens. When a brother comes to you with a problem, join with him in prayer, join your faith with his. Put pressure on Satan with the Name of Jesus and get him off the man. Put pressure on the laws of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. Lean on your righteousness in Jesus Christ. Lean hard on it! Lean hard on your sonship. Lean hard on the blood of Jesus. Praise God, they work! (Laws of Prosperity, p. 31)​

They will object: Does not the Old Testament promise that God will prosper his people? Indeed! God increases our yield so that by giving we can prove our yield is not our god. God does not prosper a man's business so he can move from a Ford to a Cadillac. God prospers a business so that 17,000 unreached peoples can be reached with the gospel. He prospers a business so that twelve percent of the world's population can move a step back from the precipice of starvation. quoted from Chap7 - Money: The currency of Christian Hedonism. Desiring God by John Piper

Now, after presenting a DISTORTED and FALSE picture of what most major prosperity proponents preach, Piper then goes on to present the TRUE doctrine that is taught both from Scripture and amongst most of the WoF teachers. Yet, he presents it as his own teaching and as an argument against the strawman that he has built concerning others. I am unaware of any WoF teacher that would disagree with Piper's last statement.

I am not sure what it is that causes men like Piper and others to go out of their way to present a false picture of the Propserity message. Perhaps they want to make themselves look like the heroes who are rescuing people from a dangerous and false teaching while presenting a true and Scriptural balance. It reminds me of a comic book superhero I read some years ago who would hire supervillains to stage a public battle with him. They would take a fall and he would look like the city's great rescuer. This seem's to be what Piper is doing. However, he seems to be living in a pipe[r] dream.

 

[probinson]

People ACTUALLY BELIEVE that death glorifies God over prosperity?

Amazing..

 

[dayhiker]

Listening to Piper, I didn't get the feeling that he was speaking the same as I read my Bible.

dayhiker

 

[irenemcg]

I listened to a third of it, that was enough, to say it is hatred, makes me wonder has he read God's Word?

 

[dayhiker]

Good point ... I assume he feels he should have the same feelings that Jesus has toward WOF believes. So I'd assume he feels God hates us as well. pretty sad to be that far from where God is.

dayhiker

 

[danlirette76]

John Piper is a wonderful Man of God

 

[victoryword]

John Piper is a wonderful Man of God

No one denies that Piper is a man of god and perhaps he may be "wonderful." However, are you a Calvinist? Piper is. Do you believe that God has two separate and distinct wills (He wills for the salvation of the lost at the same time willing for their damnation)? Piper certainly believes this?

Do you believe that his assessment of the so called "Prosperity Gospel" is an accurate one? I believe that he has been proven wrong. Therefore, the point has nothing to do with whether or not he is a "wonderful man of God" but on the accuracy of his statements against what has been labeled "The Prosperity Gospel."

 

[jaboutdoors]

I responded to a Piper article of a similar nature on the main forum some years ago. Here it is below:

Piper is a CALVINIST!!! While Calvinists are not the only critics of the Faith Movement, a lot of the criticisms as well as the distortion of pertinent facts seems come heavily from their camp. Piper is also one of those who believes that God was involved in the 9-11 incident, being in His sovereignty, responsible for it. Any theologian that accuses (my word) God like that has to be taken with a grain of salt when it comes to his views on brothers and sisters of a different theological persuasion. Nevertheless, let's examine some of his article:



It is true that some EXTEMISTS may teach a doctrine of prosperity for selfish gain, but this is far from being a staple of propsperity teaching. Major Faith Teachers actually dispute such a wicked notion as can be seen from the quotes below:

The faith message is not the only message in the Word of God, but some have latched onto the faith of God - what it can get them, and so forth - until they have perverted this greatest truth of God's Word. (Kenneth Hagin Jr. Itching Ears, P. 7, 1982)​

For the last two years I've told our RHEMA students, "If you came here with ears itching to get faith so you can drive Cadillacs, fly airplanes, or have million-dollar homes, go home. Or else reach up, pull off those itching ears, and say, 'I'm here to receive what God has for me.' Pp. 17, 18 (Kenneth Hagin Jr., Itching Ears, 1982)​

... what has happened is that a lot of Christians have made prosperity a thing for me, myself, and I - us three. They have made the prosperity message a way to get bigger houses, newer cars, more designer clothes, and a nice bank account. Many have forgotten about those in the world who don't know Jesus, and are lost and on their way to hell. (Fred Price, "The Purpose of Prosperity," Page 6)​

So as can be seen from the above quotes, Piper misleads his readers by painting with a wider brush than is necessary. He does not acknowledge the fact that even some prosperity proponents have stood up against the excess in the teaching. Many just totally ignore the late Kenneth Hagin Sr.'s lanmark book, The Midas Touch.



This is a false presentation of what is being taught. What most of the faith teachers teach is that God is NOT glorified by His children being impoverished (If Piper differs on this then he really should read Matthew 7:7-11 and see how God portrays Himself as one who is better than human fathers). God is glorified when His children have more than enough - enough to take care of themselves and to be a blessing to others and the gospel. How does a Christian bring God any glory if he/she cannot pay his/her bills. That my friend is a bad testimony. Who wants your Christianity if it leaves you in poverty? Furthermore, God is glorified when we use the wealth He gives us for helping get the gospel out to the world. Fred Price further writes:

I believe that in the pursuit of wealth, the Church has lost sight of its priorities and has put seeking the lost on the backburner ... The wealth is for the body of Christ to have the funds to go into all the world and preach the gospel, and that is why God wants us to prosper. (Page 7)​

First Piper creates this strawman of his own making and then he finds out-of-context Scripture to refute it. Now THAT is funny. But let's look at these. If one would read Luke 12:25-32 they will see that verse 33 is not at all in dispute with TRUE WoF Prosperity teaching since the Faith teachers emphasize giving to help others above all else. Now if Piper wants to accuse the faith teachers of not selling all of their possession, let us at least see him provide an example of this. Besides, seeing that the disciples maintained their fishing equipment, clothes, swords, and other goodies, how LITERALLY did they take Jesus on that statement?


Those who read Luke 12 in context will also see that faith teachers preach these same verses like the one in 29 to show that we are not to worry about food and clothing because God is our provider. Luke 3:11 is also true to WoF propserity teaching. Copeland writes:

Begin to include the Body of Christ in your needs. Begin to include the lost in your needs. If a man came to you needing clothes and you didn’t have any clothes to give him, both of you would be in trouble. You need clothes for yourself, and you need to be able to supply him with clothes. (Kenneth Copeland, The Laws of Prosperity, p. 25)​

In luke 9:58, this is the classic "Jesus was living in poverty" teaching. yet, are we to read the gospels and see that Jesus NEVER had a place to sleep? Is Mr. Piper going without a nice comfortable bed? Finally, he takes Luke 19:8 out of context, forgetting that Zacchaeus first stole from those people and was simply making restitution for the evil that he had done now that he was saved. Therefore, Piper's strawman coupled with out-of-context Scripture is a sad declaration of how far one will go to dispute someone that they disagree with.




This man is so full of strawmen to knock down that it would be funny if it weren't so pathetic. Rather than the selfish gospel that Piper claims is being taught in all prosperity circles, Copeland writes:

If you know how to use God’s ability to receive healing and never use it to help anyone but yourself, then it won’t work foryou very long. If you can believe God for healing, help some-one else get healed. Spread it around! If you know how to believe God financially, start helping the people around you. You will begin to grow as you reach out to others. (Laws of Propserity, p. 22)​

True prosperity is the ability to look a man in the eye in his moment of impossibility and take his needs as your own. Those who are spiritual are to help those who are not. We are to bear one another’s burdens. When a brother comes to you with a problem, join with him in prayer, join your faith with his. Put pressure on Satan with the Name of Jesus and get him off the man. Put pressure on the laws of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. Lean on your righteousness in Jesus Christ. Lean hard on it! Lean hard on your sonship. Lean hard on the blood of Jesus. Praise God, they work! (Laws of Prosperity, p. 31)​

Now, after presenting a DISTORTED and FALSE picture of what most major prosperity proponents preach, Piper then goes on to present the TRUE doctrine that is taught both from Scripture and amongst most of the WoF teachers. Yet, he presents it as his own teaching and as an argument against the strawman that he has built concerning others. I am unaware of any WoF teacher that would disagree with Piper's last statement.

I am not sure what it is that causes men like Piper and others to go out of their way to present a false picture of the Propserity message. Perhaps they want to make themselves look like the heroes who are rescuing people from a dangerous and false teaching while presenting a true and Scriptural balance. It reminds me of a comic book superhero I read some years ago who would hire supervillains to stage a public battle with him. They would take a fall and he would look like the city's great rescuer. This seem's to be what Piper is doing. However, he seems to be living in a pipe[r] dream.

That is excellence post!

 

[Debtfree]

Oh my gosh...while watching that video I was eating and as the screen showed the words about a little girl being thrown from a window and being smashed on the ground........I had to stop chewing. My heart started beating really fast. THAT is what he thinks glorifies God? DEATH and TRAGIDY is what he thinks is what God is all about. I started to cry.

Folks, the last time I saw a young 3 year old boy struck by a car....caught in the wheel well...dragged til the car stopped...layed mangled in a pool of blood....I stepped forward with the faith God gave me and he was raised from the dead. THAT my friend, is where God is glorified.

How on earth people are comforted by these sick doctorines.

Love death, hate prosperity??????

The Bible says "Wo unto the man who calls good evil, and evil good."

This guy...whatever his name is is twisted.

Yes, I can see his point about not attracting people to Jesus related to things...I agree with him to extent.

However, doesn't the Word of God say, "It's Your kindness that leads us to repentance oh Lord"

Not it's destruction and hatred for sinners that leads us to repentance of Lord.

I don't agree with people coming to Jesus just because of the blessings only, but it is His kindness [blessings, healing, restoration, prosperity in every area] that leads us to repentance.

People like this what's his name can live their poverty, sickness doctrines and live in lack in the rotten here and now while they wait for the sweet by and by...

It's like they think they are earning their way to heaven because of their "suffering for Jesus!" But Grace is a free gift...it can't be paid for by anything we do...especially suffering.

It is such a shame that one would continue to "suffer for Jesus" when all the suffering has been done for us by Him.

I'm not saying that we don't have times that we suffer or are not doing well. We all struggle at times.

But Jesus suffered once and for all IN OUR PLACE...AS IF IT WERE US!

People who HATE the properity message...hate it because it exposes their lack of faith and their jealousy against those who live prosperous lives. These are selfish people...my 4 and no more type of people.

It takes money to preach the Gospel world-wide. Television and crusades are very expensive.

Old whats his name is blinded by his religion. It's religion and not true Christianity. He serves out of duty, and suffers to prove his worthiness, he is filled with pride in his suffering for Jesus...No one is worth without the blood of Jesus!

I'm sure God's proud???

Debtfree
Jesus IS Lord!

 

[supermik3]

.

 

[BrotherHicks]

Sometimes with people like this we need to just remember what edifies. (1 Timothy 1:4; 4:7; 6:4-5; Titus 3:9-11)

 

[Leimeng]

~ Piper is a calvinist. A demonic gnostic cultic teaching from the pit of hades used by those who hate others not exactly like them and are looking for justification to do so.
~ Continue to discuss amongst yourselves...

Peace,

Leimeng

Flatulo Ergo Sum ~~~

(***Insert Personal One Liner Here***)