John 17: 24

[Ran77]

As I was doing my morning scripture reading I came across this passage:


John 17: 24

24. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.


For those that believe that God and Jesus are different parts of the same being, could you please explain to me why God would love a future part of Himself before the world was created?


Thanks.

 

[Ripheus27]

The Father loved the Son even when the Son was discarnate.

 

[Ran77]

The Father loved the Son even when the Son was discarnate.

Thank you for the reply, but I don't know what that means. Could you elaborate on it a bit, please?

 

[Rescued One]

Trinity:

But so many people can't grasp the relationship of Father and Son even after they've received countless explanations.

 

[grasping the after wind]

As I was doing my morning scripture reading I came across this passage:


John 17: 24

24. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.


For those that believe that God and Jesus are different parts of the same being, could you please explain to me why God would love a future part of Himself before the world was created?


Thanks.

I know of no one that believes they are different parts of the same being the Nicene Creed expresses it as "of one being with the Father" not separate parts of a being but one in being.

 

[Phantasman]

As I was doing my morning scripture reading I came across this passage:


John 17: 24

24. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.


For those that believe that God and Jesus are different parts of the same being, could you please explain to me why God would love a future part of Himself before the world was created?


Thanks.

John 13:
3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

How can someone go and come from himself?

Paul always said God the Father. Not God the son.

"Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ."

I just cannot accept Jesus or the Holy Spirit as God. God is above all.

 

[Ran77]

But so many people can't grasp the relationship of Father and Son even after they've received countless explanations.

I see that you have moved the personal attack campaign over here as well.

 

[Ran77]

I know of no one that believes they are different parts of the same being the Nicene Creed expresses it as "of one being with the Father" not separate parts of a being but one in being.

Okay. You don't know of anyone that believes that.


However, I have had several people on this forum explain it that way. So are you stating that they are seperate entities - each their own individual being?

 

[Ran77]

John 13:
3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

How can someone go and come from himself?

Paul always said God the Father. Not God the son.

"Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ."

I just cannot accept Jesus or the Holy Spirit as God. God is above all.

I agree. But I was hoping that one of the individuals that find fault with the LDS for believing that God and Jesus are two different beings would explain their understanding of this verse to me. And I don't plan to argue with them about it, I am just interested in understanding their point of view here.

In fact, I am remember one of the members giving me the egg analogy. Basically, there is a yoke, an egg white, and a shell. They are all seperate things that make up a single egg. In that analogy, they are all parts of the same thing, not seperate.

 

[TasteForTruth]

Trinity:

But so many people can't grasp the relationship of Father and Son even after they've received countless explanations.

I can formulate innumerable explanations of how a circle is a square, but few people would probably understand them. I don't think it's always a problem on the part of the questioner. Some things simple don't make sense. And I don't say that in order to discount, by default, the doctrine of a co-substantial trinity. Miracles, by their nature—such as turning water into wine—don't make sense, but that doesn't mean they don't happen.

However, when other comprehensible spiritual truths defy the explanation being made of the proposed "parent" truth, it becomes very difficult to dismiss the incomprehensibility of the explanations of that parent truth. That is how I feel about the co-substantial Trinity, and I believe that the verse Ran77 cited is a good example of why, regardless of the explanation used, it is so difficult to accept the incomprehensibility of the doctrine as akin to an inexplicable miracle. After all, if the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one being, then it is unlikely that any explanation is going to help me understand why It (the Trinitarian God is without gender, correct?) loves an emanation of Itself before that emanation was ever emanated.

That said, while some may believe Ran77 is picking a fight (and maybe he is), I would appreciate a Trinitarian Christian taking the question seriously. I would even go the rounds in whatever amount of doctrinal foundation-building may be required for me to get to a place of understanding on the subject. That would totally be worth my time.

 

[Gareth]

The problem is, irrespective how sincere a person is about it, Jesus himself never once said he was the Father. He had countless opportunities to do so and yet didn't. There is a beautiful chapter in the Bible that captures the love that Jesus has for his Father and vice versa. It's found in John 14. Read in context it shows the closeness that the Lord has for his Father and those who he was going to leave behind, his followers. Not once does Jesus say he is the Father, but rather, he is like a mirror image of his Father. After all over the countless eons of time that they have existed together and Jesus being God's first creation, they would share certain traits. Yet Jesus always showed that the Father was greater than he was. It has been man's interpretation of things that have lead to the slant that they are equal in all respects. They're not, and the Bible shows that to be the case as it does in this chapter of John.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Okay. You don't know of anyone that believes that.


However, I have had several people on this forum explain it that way. So are you stating that they are seperate entities - each their own individual being?

Look at what the Creed says ONE. Look at what John 10:30 quotes Jesus as saying. ONE in being. not separate, not part of, not own individual being, just ONE.
John 10:30
New International Version (©2011)
I and the Father are one."

 

[TasteForTruth]

Look at what the Creed says ONE. Look at what John 10:30 quotes Jesus as saying. ONE in being. not separate, not part of, not own individual being, just ONE.
John 10:30

I and the Father are one."

I believe that Jesus meant exactly what He said. And He did not say that He and the Father are one "being."

This is why I would appreciate a Trinitarian Christian taking seriously the question in the OP, rather than merely respond with traditional Trinitarian dogma, which probably won't get the thread anywhere. IMO

 

[Juelrei]

As I was doing my morning scripture reading I came across this passage:

John 17: 24

24. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

For those that believe that God and Jesus are different parts of the same being, could you please explain to me why God would love a future part of Himself before the world was created?

Thanks.

1. Before the world was created? He is an eternal God. Future/present/past. It's all the same to him.
2. Why wouldn't he love an extension of himself? Husbands are supposed to do the same concerning their wives.

Different 'parts', expressions, forms of the same being or class, kind- in that God is eternal spirit, but for 33 years Jesus is flesh.

In the John 17 prayer, Jesus prepares to return to heaven and take his place at the throne with God. Taking back all of his divine privileges that he had removed to be born into the earth.

He prays it before his crucifixion and death because he'll be busy during those events.
When he returned to heaven he was no longer flesh, and no longer spirit like his Father.
He is now a glorified human being. An entirely new form of existence.

But that new form has not lessened his status and place with God. The relationship of love with the Father is the same that he had before he became flesh.

The phrase, "before the foundation of the world" also refers to the redemption plan that was made because of God's love. Providing a covenant relationship. And expressing equality with God. It's all connected together.

 

[Rescued One]

John 13:
3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

How can someone go and come from himself?

Paul always said God the Father. Not God the son.

"Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ."

I just cannot accept Jesus or the Holy Spirit as God. God is above all.

Jesus is not the Father or Holy Spirit. Jesus is God. The Father is God. The Holy Spirit is God. There is only one God.

There is a huge difference between Trinitarianism and Modalism.

Trinity:

Acts 20:28. God purchased the church with His own blood. Jesus is the One Who shed His own blood.

 

[Ran77]

That said, while some may believe Ran77 is picking a fight (and maybe he is) . . .

Not this time. I stated that I had no plans to argue the point with someone explaining the matter to me and that is exactly what I mean.

 

[Ran77]

Look at what the Creed says ONE. Look at what John 10:30 quotes Jesus as saying. ONE in being. not separate, not part of, not own individual being, just ONE.
John 10:30
New International Version (©2011)
I and the Father are one."

Doesn't that contradict what you previously told me?


?

 

[Ran77]

1. Before the world was created? He is an eternal God. Future/present/past. It's all the same to him.
2. Why wouldn't he love an extension of himself? Husbands are supposed to do the same concerning their wives.

Different 'parts', expressions, forms of the same being or class, kind- in that God is eternal spirit, but for 33 years Jesus is flesh.

In the John 17 prayer, Jesus prepares to return to heaven and take his place at the throne with God. Taking back all of his divine privileges that he had removed to be born into the earth.

He prays it before his crucifixion and death because he'll be busy during those events.
When he returned to heaven he was no longer flesh, and no longer spirit like his Father.
He is now a glorified human being. An entirely new form of existence.

But that new form has not lessened his status and place with God. The relationship of love with the Father is the same that he had before he became flesh.

The phrase, "before the foundation of the world" also refers to the redemption plan that was made because of God's love. Providing a covenant relationship. And expressing equality with God. It's all connected together.

Thank you for responding.


Let me repeat it back to you to see if I got it right.

Because God transcends the bonds of time and space, He can express emotion for future events as if they were present events, so that the time difference in this instance does not matter.

Does that sound correct?


As to your second point: Why would God love Himself? What is the point in doing that? And more importantly, why take the time to inform all of us that God loves Himself? The example of husbands loving their wives is apples to oranges, because they are being instructed to love a different individual - not themselves.

 

[Ran77]

Jesus is not the Father or Holy Spirit. Jesus is God. The Father is God. The Holy Spirit is God. There is only one God.

There is a huge difference between Trinitarianism and Modalism.

Trinity:

I loved doing logic problems in High School Geometry. Here is one of them:

If . . .

1) All rabbits like lettuce. . .

2) and Mary's pet does not like lettuce . . .

What can we deduce from this?

The answer is that Mary's pet is not a rabbit.


Now let's apply that same process to the above model.

If . . .

1) The Father is God . . .

2) Jesus is God . . .

3) and there is only One God . . .

What can we deduce from this?

The answer is that The Father and Jesus are the same entity.

Once you introduce the concept that The Father is not Jesus you have broken the logic of the situation. You have introduced contradictory claims.


However, I feel that is a discussion for another thread.

 

[Phantasman]

Look at what the Creed says ONE. Look at what John 10:30 quotes Jesus as saying. ONE in being. not separate, not part of, not own individual being, just ONE.
John 10:30
New International Version (©2011)
I and the Father are one."

He said he and the disciples were one, as well. It doesn't make him the disciples.