Jobs for no pay

[Endtime Survivors]

Why would it give it to someone outside the church, who doesn't even attend? Thats what confuses me.

Well, I don't know the details of your church situation, but it seems pretty obvious to me, based on what you've said, that the answer is because no one in the church wants to do it. The pastor of the church is the leader of the church, but that doesn't mean he should have to do everything. Is there really no member of the church who is willing to help?

This is what I was saying earlier about the difference between the church in acts and the churches of today. There is no real unity. For most of the congregation, there's very little care for what happens with the church outside of the regularly scheduled meetings. If the pastor were to make an issue of it by calling for volunteers from the congregation, they'd almost certainly tell him just to hire someone to do it.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

...but it makes me wonder how do we become like the church God wants us to be.

That's a great question. If we want to be the kind of church God wants us to be then we need to listen to Jesus and act on the things he told us to do. The church in acts didn't behave the way they did on a whim. They were following Jesus' instructions. There's A LOT of Jesus' teachings which are regularly ignored by the church world today because they require too much commitment.

That kind of unity it takes to be the church Jesus described requires discipline and self sacrifice, which is why it's so rare. Most church people want to live their lives as they please while getting "spiritual benefit" once or twice a week from church meetings. If you want to be a part of the kind of church God wants then you need a vision bigger than your own personal life.

The rich ruler who asked Jesus, "what do I need to do to have eternal life" walked away sad because he didn't want to let go of his personal comforts. Sadly, that's what's happening with the majority of the church world today.

 

[Goodbook]

I do see a lot of over weight pastors. I dont know why. One in the previous church I had attended the one who asked if he could have my chickens eggs, suffers diabetes.

I was watching Heaven is for Real the movie tonight and the pastor in that movie had problems paying bills. And difficulty believing heaven is real.

As for the church I am in now, i think they were asking people in church and someone was doingthat job for love, ie nothing but they want to pay someone else to do it. If they pay someone it might as well be someone in church rather than outside dont you think?

If people in church are unemployed, why does the church pastor tell them to go find a job outside of church? Theres plenty of jobs that need doing in church which someone could be rewarded for. Whether its with food or something else.

I just think theres something not right about this whole office admin thing if they are going to go outside the church, and maybe employ someone who may be a great adminstrator but dosent know anything about this church. I used to know this lady who was a secretary or admin for a church that she didnt attend and she would say terrible things about the pastor, as if she got lumped with all the work of running the church. I dont know if she was doing it for the money only but her husband had some kind of trucking job that she hardly ever got to see him and he wasnt earning much I gathered.
Then when I asked her about missions because she was one of the promotors of evangelism amonst muslim background believers she said she couldnt go on any, because she had to look after her parents who were elderly. But she wanted others to go so she could be paid doing admin for them..thats how it works I found out.
You raise all this money, you beg other churches for money, and then you have to pay the mission agency who doles out money so you can go on missions.

But she did pay my friends bus fare when she helped out with some of the work for this evangelism, i think it was sending booklets for praying for muslims over ramadan.

But...you do have to pay to go on a course to find out about missions. But, i talked with lots of people and you have to be RICH to go on them. They not looking to send anyone who cant afford to go. But the rich people dont go. So maybe they pay someone else to do it for them whos better at evangelising and continue living comfortable lives.

 

[Goodbook]

Yea i dont know why the previous youth pastor was doing everything. He got burned out. He could have shared the load, but he wouldnt.
Like he was doing childrens minsitry, sunday school, holiday programme, social events. Office admin, promise keepers, friday night club, easter camps, treasurer. Everything. Then he couldnt preach because he didnt have a bible college degree and had to give up all his jobs he was being paid for to go and study so he could preach. So he resigned.
And then...well his family split up cos his wife commited adultery with someone else in the church who was like her husbands best friend. That couple left. It was just sooo weird.
Now the church had someone else who grew up in this church who HAs a bible college degree and was pastoring a church in a small town. So now hes offering these jobs to other people and they are paid. But I dont know if it will be people in the church or outside of it. Im hoping it will be church people not ouside people and as they are splitting it up into part time jobs it will be manageable.

Office admin for a church is a minstry dont you think? But it might be boring cos you stuck inside the office for the time you work. Its not spreading the gospel, it would be boring stuff like counting money and chasing up accounts and spreadsheets. My friend who does office admin at the previous church, I go and take her out to lunch otherwise shes stuck there all day with nobody to talk to. The church girl who ripped me off was doing her job previosuly when she was sick...but I learned to be wary of her. She would try and claim that only she ws spirit filled and that the church I attend now wasnt. She was the one who roped me into all these things all the while she was being paid by the church. Truly she was diabolical and took advantage.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

If people in church are unemployed, why does the church pastor tell them to go find a job outside of church?

It could be that the volunteers are not qualified to do the job. Admin often takes strong organizational and accounting skills. However, sometimes you just have to do the best you can with what you've got.

Theres plenty of jobs that need doing in church which someone could be rewarded for. Whether its with food or something else.

Except that very few people have a commitment to the principles of their church strong enough to motivate them to accept room and board. Most people want to live their own lives. They want to make their own money so they can spend it however they want. Church represents a a weekly "top-up" point, where they go to get their spiritual juice for the week, or perhaps to perform their obligatory tithing or whatever other formulaic procedures they may imagine are necessary.

I used to know this lady who was a secretary or admin for a church that she didnt attend and she would say terrible things about the pastor,

Lots of people inside the church gossip about the pastor and one another. It's pretty common.

as if she got lumped with all the work of running the church.

Maybe she did. That's one of the problems of using money to manipulate one another into helping out; it's much easier to take advantage of people when we feel like we need to get our "money's worth" out of them.

i talked with lots of people and you have to be RICH to go on them. They not looking to send anyone who cant afford to go. But the rich people dont go. So maybe they pay someone else to do it for them whos better at evangelising and continue living comfortable lives.

Thanks for sharing this, GB. I believe you've encapsulated an important issue here. Generally speaking, these volunteer organizations charge so much because they pay the airfare, room and boarding, other little misc expenses and, of course, they must get paid for organizing the details. But when it comes to Christians and the church, these little volunteer businesses are completely unnecessary. The church should be paying for their missionaries. The church should be organizing the details and planning how to best spend the money as well as where the greatest needs are and who will volunteer.

A few problems with this ideal is that generally speaking the congregation is not interested in missions, they put far too much emphasis on "specialized training" as though becoming a missionary is some kind of elite profession and because the church would rather spend the church's resources on itself; better buildings, better perks, better reputation, better advertising, the mortgage, etc...

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Office admin for a church is a minstry dont you think?

Very much so, and it's some of the hardest work, too. We're called on to be good and faithful stewards of what God provides for us.

Then he couldnt preach because he didnt have a bible college degree and had to give up all his jobs he was being paid for to go and study so he could preach. So he resigned.

He was allowed to teach kids without a degree, but he could not teach adults? Lol, no wonder Jesus said we must become like little children!

Anyway, what a shame that they drove away such a hard worker over such a stupid nitpicking issue. How did we get from poor fishermen being the leaders of the new church to "you must have a degree which proves we accept your understanding of how to teach people to follow Jesus".

She was the one who roped me into all these things all the while she was being paid by the church. Truly she was diabolical and took advantage.

Yeah, part of learning love is learning how to be wise, too. It seems like you're wiser now. Just don't let it make you hard.

 

[Goodbook]

I am wiser now. Yes.

No church is perfect, but ive learned some sad things about how its all run. Church to me isnt a building, or a business but people want to make it so.

I remmeber reading this book called 'the purpose driven life' which was basically a primer on how to make a church into a profitable business. It was shocking and the author tried to use scripture to justify his thoughts.

JEsus went about his Fathers business but he also ran out money lenders from the temple and praised the widow who gave all she had over the scribes and Pharisees who made a big show of their tithing and learning.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

JEsus went about his Fathers business

Yeah it's interesting, because his father's business seemed to include no paid employment, and yet Jesus spoke in worldly terms that he thought we'd understand. When sending the disciples out with nothing he said that they are laborers worthy of their hire, meaning that they are employees in God's kingdom and if they work for that Kingdom then God, as the boss, would provide for them.

 

[Dave-W]

Even apprentices get paid while learning on the job.

That depends on the kind of apprenticeship. Many intern positions are unpaid but get college credit.

 

[John Davidson]

What do you do when people ask you to work for nothing? I just think that's not right. They think that you have free time and need things to do but that is FAR from the truth.
I'm just annoyed.

Isn't the worker worth his/her wages and the bible saying don't muzzle the ox that treads out the corn? You should at least be able to have a meal for working or something.

I know what you mean here.

A couple of weeks ago I was walking by my neighbors house and he came and grabbed me and asked if I would help him load a washing machine into his truck. I helped him load it and then when we were done he didn't offer me anything. In the least he could have offered me a coke or a drink of water.

Then a few days ago I was leaving Costco and a couple ladies stopped me and asked me to load 3 heavy cases of water into their vehicle. Again they did not even offer me a water.

I don't mind helping out sometimes; I volunteer at a homeless shelter and I am looking into volunteering for a prison ministry. But I don't think people should expect you to work for free.

They should at least offer you something to drink. That is the polite thing to do.

 

[Goodbook]

I think they should at least say thankyou. If they cant offer you any water. Jesus must have felt like that when he healed all these people and most of them didnt even say thank you.

I remember Jesus asking the woman at the well for water, even he got thirsty lol. And then he offered living water for her as she was doing so much work fetching and pumping water everyday.

 

[Goodbook]

I just want to come back to this.
Someone outside the church was appointed admin. Apparently she is a student of a bible college and training to be in ministry but already has a degree or masters in admin or something.

Fair enough, but then I was told that they arent really paying her what shes worth, which is a bit sad.

So maybe there was just nobody in the church who could specialise in admin, as people mention, its a somewhat tedious and specalised job, although from the job description it didnt sound like you needed a masters in it.

Im just concerned that its someone outside the church, even though...shes studying for ministry which suggests she wont stay in that job forever. I dont know, what do others think! Of course the elders prayed and made the decison. So it must be ok, but to me it sounded like she was taken advantage of?

Is it something I ought to concern myself with? Im just thinking this new person, if shes not part of our church but just employed by the church how do I relate to her when shes in the office? Is it a good thing to have outside people come into a church and be in the office but not ever really fellowship with them because they belong somewhere else? Even though she will spend more hours in the church than most other people but only really be around the pastors.

 

[Goodbook]

Im just thinking that, if I volunteer for something that needs doing in the church, but not been given the resources to carry it out or even the go ahead, i feel a bit like they just dont want anyone messing up their system.

Just an illustration of this was one of the ladies in my bible study helped with the new fit out of the kitchen. She volunteered her time along with others to help with this (while negelecting her own affairs, as she confessed to us) and she even organised the drawers with label so we knew where everything was. Which took a lot of time to do and was thoughtful. But the pastor didnt like it and said it would all change anyway so all her hard work was wasted. Im just afraid that if I do the same sort of thing, something that needs doing in the church that I can see would need doing, and volunteer my time to do it, only to find that the pastor doesnt want it done at all. But everyone else thinks its a good idea. And you would only be led to do it if God had led you to do it, otherwise why bother? And of course you are not even paid to do this, it comes from the heart.

???

 

[Goodbook]

Well, I don't know the details of your church situation, but it seems pretty obvious to me, based on what you've said, that the answer is because no one in the church wants to do it. The pastor of the church is the leader of the church, but that doesn't mean he should have to do everything. Is there really no member of the church who is willing to help?

This is what I was saying earlier about the difference between the church in acts and the churches of today. There is no real unity. For most of the congregation, there's very little care for what happens with the church outside of the regularly scheduled meetings. If the pastor were to make an issue of it by calling for volunteers from the congregation, they'd almost certainly tell him just to hire someone to do it.

I dont think so cos they said lots of people applied and I think at least afew of them would have actually been church members. And in fact, someone in church was acting as temp admin before the role was offered up to anybody. Not sure why she couldnt continue, but it could have been maybe they werent paying her anything?!

 

[Goodbook]

Have come back to this theead because...as it turnd out the youth pastor was doing all these roles and being paid for it but he is now delegating and actually advertising for hirelings to do the job looking after children hes meant to do which is pastoring while he just earns money for sitting there and studying and occasionally preaching the odd sermon.

Some elders were doing that role before for free but they cant do it all the time and one young lady moved away. So maybe they are just going to hire people outside the church and run it like a business.

I thought about how the youth pastor was treating everyone including me when i offered to do the library yet he wouldnt let me and another church member get on with the job and think its a shame and something is really wrong with the way that church is going.

The last straw was when i offered a seat to the senior pastor but the youth pastor said get rid of it, like rudely in an email and took issue with bibles in the church library. When i found all these bibles locked away in the cupboard i was really shocked.

I might have expected this in a catholic church as heard they didnt like just anyone reading the bible but this was a baptist. When someone acts like hes the pope in a church im thinking ok...time to go and not kowtow to the guy in the popemobile.

The leader of our church, any church is NOT the pastor its actually Jesus. Pastors are just caretakers commisioned by jesus just as teachers are. It doesnt mean they the boss! They actually servants.

As for the admin hired lady ...well i think shes on a short leash since being employed. I dont think she loves anyone in our church since she made that twit remark. It hurts to think about it.

Should i go back there or just stop going and avoid all this drama. Its just i have 1 book to return and my ministry partner is back from her holiday, excpet i havent heard a peep from her and suspect after this experience she never wants to set foot in a library again since we had all this drama doing this one.

 

[Greg J.]

Find someone (preferably 2 others) who agrees with you and both of you go the pastor in question and express the issues you have. If they're based on Scripture, refer to Scripture. Express your opinions if they are based on your own experience. (If they're not, save them for another conversation.) If he won't listen to you, the two of you could then go to the person that signs his paycheck.

 

[Goodbook]

Well me and my ministry partner...(we are both qualified librarians) will need to talk to this youth pastor together if and when we can actually get a chance to, and preferably NOT in his office.

He tried to get us to agree to some policy that at first seemed benign but on second reading doesn even give us any mandate to do anything but be his unpaid slaves. We are NOT. We did this library because we want to and we love books and its our calling for everyone in the church not just one person.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Well me and my ministry partner...(we are both qualified librarians) will need to talk to this youth pastor together if and when we can actually get a chance to, and preferably NOT in his office.

He tried to get us to agree to some policy that at first seemed benign but on second reading doesn even give us any mandate to do anything but be his unpaid slaves. We are NOT. We did this library because we want to and we love books and its our calling for everyone in the church not just one person.

Sounds like you either need to talk to him clearly about the problems (as Greg J suggested) or find another church where your participation will be appreciated.

 

[Goodbook]

I'm going with the other church because this youth pastor doesn't listen to anyone, not just us two. And we are pretty articulate. He only hears what he wants to hear, unfortunately.

 

[Goodbook]

lol what other church. I think I will just say to everyone, if you want christian library books and bibles y'all have to come to my house. Don't go to church. I only do personal deliveries and smuggling Bibles to people in need.