Jewish identification

[yeshuasavedme]

I wasn't sure if this was a pre-loaded question or not. But it seems as though your aware of the dispensational groups that use this verse to save some type of a "Israel" at end times.

Israel was given the name that meant, 'like a prince who has power with God and man, and has prevailed.

In John 1:12 we read, And to those who recieved Him, he gave the power to become sons of God (Israelites), even to those who believe on his name.

Thus to become one of "Israel" one is called to believe Jesus as the Christ and his Words as having as being absolutely truthful and having the same authority of the maker of all that is created. One eventually realizes that his words are truth and they are LIfe and submits to their philosopy and teachings.

I believe the secondary part of John 1:12 (even those who believe on his name) refers to the name "JESUS" or Joshua, meaning Savior (for he shall save his people from their sin). A person who believes that Jesus is the Creator incarnate will be brought to recognize his/her shortcomings and their unworthiness to inheirit eternal life and they will Call upon Him to save them despite their behavior and despite their inability to "do good".
It is those people who believe on His name as Savior faith believing who are also given the RIGHT to become "Israel"... sons of God.

Hi Notrash,
I used to think the way you explained that because I was not doing my own homework, but when I actually began to do my own study I had my eyes opened to the Word of God on the names of Jesus Christ, and there is much about the Names of YHWH come in flesh that are all about His redemption as Kinsman to our human being kind.

The name the angel said for His people to call the Christ come in flesh [in Hebrew], was exactly the same word as the Hebrew for "Salvation".
Hosea or Hoshea or Oshea = "salvation". http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H01954&t=kjv
It is transliterated to the English as Jesus; but it is "Salvation" to His own people [both Jews and Gentiles] who are saved from their sins.
He is the Everlasting Father of the second creation, the only living human being Son of God, and is the second 'Isyh for earth; and all who receive Him are adopted into His Name and will be resurrected in His New Man image as the second Man/'Isyh. He is Christ/Messiah/Anointed One, and He is our "Salvation"; but the Father called His name "Israel", which is explained in Isaiah 49; Hosea 12:3-5; Genesis 32 and Genesis 33.

Ever after that time of giving His second Man name to Jacob, He called all Jacob's seed "My namesake"; the people "called by My name"; and so forth. The name was given was a sign of the adoption into the Only Begotten Son's New Man name, which was to come at the appointed time, when YHWH -in the second Person- would strip Himself "bare naked" of the Glory He had with the Father before the world was, and would dress Himself in second creation, brother to Adam, human being flesh.

As "Israel" [which root etymons I believe are actually taken from the Hebrew words which form 'Isyh-Sar-El], He is the second creation human being Son of God, and is the only created flesh brother to the first human being son of God, Adam.
Adam is dead in spirit -irrevocably- and the kingdom given him to rule, as a prince with God, as "Adam, son of God [Luke 3:38] is also corrupted and also made subject to sin and death by the fall of it's first 'isyh, Adam.

In Genesis 1 -3; Malachi 2:15, Adam is made 'isyh and 'ishyah to bring forth sons of -for- God. This is what the second 'Isyh came to ransom the lost seed and their lost kingdom back for, to make them sons of God in His second Man name, by adoption. He is not Adam, and He is not 'made a living soul', but is the Living Spirit =Christ/Messiah/Anointed One, come in New creation flesh, which was prepared in the womb of a virgin new, and which He donned as a garment, for Him to wear forever.

In Isaiah 59, YHWH looked and saw no 'isyh [translated as 'man'] to bring forth justice for the earth [as it's Firstborn/Chirf/High Priest and High King, before YHWH ], and so He Himself in the garments of Kinsman to do the duty of Kinsman for the creation which Adam lost.
In Isaiah 49 we see that the Father called His name -as the Person of YHWH the Word, come in that New creation human flesh at the incarnation, "Israel".

He came unto His own people first, who had kept the living oracles which taught [as a tutor] the truths of His person and work, but they [the rulers of the nation] did not receive Him when He came, and so He left their "house" desolate. until He gets a crop of adopted sons from the Gentiles, but they are brought to His name through the believing Jews' Witness of His Person, for "Salvation is of the Jews".
After He gets the first crop [typed in Pentecost] of sons all perfected [in the full whole/Holy garments of Salvation, which are the garments of priesthood [typed in Leviticus 8], and are the washed and cleansed soul, with the adoption Spirit and the adoption Body, to wear, then He cleanses the earth for the second crop to grow, which is typed in the fall harvest at Tabernacles.

The Father called the first creation human being "Adam", and made Adam one being, two persons -male and female- to multiply the godly seed [to produce sons of God for the Glory to indwell [Genesis 1:26-28; Genesis 5:2; Malachi 2:15]. We know the story of the fall "in Adam" and the story of the redemption "in the second Man's" name.

Hosea is a book written as an oracle of the salvation of the people of the name. When all Israel is saved, they will call Him 'My 'Isyh:
Hsa 2:16 And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, [that] thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali.


28 And He said, "Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed."

29 Then Jacob asked, saying, "Tell me Your name, I pray. "And He said, "Why is it that you ask about My name?" And He blessed him there.30 So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."
31 Just as he crossed over Penuel the sun rose on him, and he limped on his hip. 32 Therefore to this day the children of Israel do not eat the muscle that shrank, which is on the hip socket, because He touched the socket of Jacob's hip in the muscle that shrank.
…
Gen 33:20 And he erected there an altar, and called it "El-ELOHE-ISRAEL" = GOD-MIGHTY GOD-ISRAEL

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Jhn 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

2Th 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given [us] everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

Isa 54:5 For thy Maker [is] thy Baali YHWH of hosts [is] his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
Hsa 2:16 And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, [that] thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali.

Salvation is in being born a second time [the adoption] of and into the Spirit and the name second Man, now, while it is called "Today", for each seed of Adam born into this world.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Deleted

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Regarding the "choseness" of the Jew, what are the identifying and distinguishing characteristics whereby one can recognize such chosen individuals?

To further elucidate: Romans 11:26 tells us that all Israel will be saved. What must an individual do or be to qualify for inclusion within Israel?

If no one is able to provide an answer, could you recommend a forum or site which might be able to?

Hi. I suppose that would depend on the Biblical definition of "Jew". All Jews were Israelites but not all Israelites were Jews.

http://christianforums.com/f804-christian-scriptures.html

John 7:1 And was walking, the Jesus, after these-things in the Galilee, for not He desired in the Judea/ioudaia <2449> to be walking, that sought to kill Him, the Judeans/ioudaioi <2453>,

Luke 21:21 then those in the Judea/ioudaia <2449>, let them be fleeing into the mountains; and those in midst of her, let them be out-departing/ek-cwreitwsan; and those in the countries, no let them be intering/eisercesqwsan <1525> (5737) into to her;

 

[Sphinx777]

Who_is_a_jew

 

[Jerrysch]

I'm more than happy to quote, Terral:

"One is either born a Jew by having a Jewish mother, or he converts to Judaism as a proselyte."

Will an individual who is or becomes a Jew under either of the above circumstances be automatically saved from hell?

No, and dispensationalism doesn't teach that that person does. Dispensationalism teaches that those who are justified are justified by faith alone. If the Bible says all Isreal will be saved, and it does, it will be saved as a result of their faith, as with every other person. Yet at some point in time all Israel will be saved, yet by their individual faith, not as a result of their birth.

 

[Jerrysch]

God chose and set apart Israel as a nation. Here are some Scripture verses on this:

Deuteronomy 7:6 For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.

2 Samuel 7:23 23 And who is like your people Israel-- the one nation on earth that God went out to redeem as a people for himself, and to make a name for himself,

Jeremiah 31:36 6 "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight," declares the LORD, "will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me."




Israel itself consists of saved and unsaved individual Jews. Peter and Paul were Jews, and so were members of Israel. Cornelius and Titus were Gentiles, and therefore were not members of Israel. The Church itself is not Israel - the church consists of saved Jews and saved Gentiles.

Paul's discussion in Romans 9-11shows that Israel consists of saved and unsaved Jews. Paul's primary concern centered on his love for his fellow unsaved Jews:

Romans 10:1 Brothers and sisters, my heart's desire and prayer to God on behalf of my fellow Israelites is for their salvation.

It was clear that the many Jews in Paul's day, although known as God's people because of His revelation, had rejected Christ. Paul answered the question on whether God rejected Israel:

Romans 11:1 So I ask, God has not rejected his people, has he? Absolutely not! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.

Romans 11:11 I ask then, they did not stumble into an irrevocable fall, did they? Absolutely not! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make Israel jealous.

And if Israel was not rejected by God and they did not have an "irrevocable fall" - then what had happened to the unbelieving half of Israel?

Romans 11:25 or I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: A partial hardening has happened to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

A partial hardening is not a complete rejection. So there is a future for unbelieving Israel, and something will happen at the time when the full number of the Gentiles has come in. Paul tells us:

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion; he will remove ungodliness from Jacob.

Notice that Israel is parallel with Jacob in the OT quote. The ungodliness within Jacob are the unbelieving Jews within Israel. So just before Christ returns, the Jews as a nation will turn to Christ. The unbelieving part of Israel will turn to Christ and acknowledge Him.

Romans 11:27 And this is my covenant with them, when I take away their sins." 28 In regard to the gospel they [the Jews] are enemies for your sake, but in regard to election they [the Jews] are dearly loved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

Who are enemies of the gospel but dearly loved in regard to election? It has to be the unbelieving part of Israel. God had called Israel as a nation, and that calling is irrevocable.

Romans 11:30 Just as you [Gentiles] were formerly disobedient to God, but have now received mercy due to their [Jews] disobedience, 31 so they [Jews] too have now been disobedient in order that, by the mercy shown to you [Gentiles], they [Jews] too may now receive mercy.

The last two verses show the interplay between the Jews and the Gentiles, and that it is all part of God's plan.


LDG

Amen

 

[Jerrysch]

Regarding the "choseness" of the Jew, what are the identifying and distinguishing characteristics whereby one can recognize such chosen individuals?

To further elucidate: Romans 11:26 tells us that all Israel will be saved. What must an individual do or be to qualify for inclusion within Israel?

If no one is able to provide an answer, could you recommend a forum or site which might be able to?

One must be a literal son or daughter of Jacob to be considered of Israel. It is a very select group. When the Scriptures speak of Israel it is to these it is referring. Those who can, after the flesh call Jacob grandpa.

 

[Terral]

Hi Jerry:

No, and dispensationalism doesn't teach that that person does. Dispensationalism teaches that those who are justified are justified by faith alone.

Thank you for pointing out just one reason I can never consider myself to be any kind of Dispensationalist. An overwhelming number of professing Dispensationalists errantly believe that &#8216;our&#8217; justification by faith &#8216;apart&#8217; from works (Rom 4:4-6) has application to EVERYONE, which is definitely NOT the case at all. There will be people justified BY THE LAW, just as others are justified by &#8216;works and not by faith alone.&#8217; Paul writes about the first group, saying,

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&#8220;For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God (very important to my case), but the doers of the Law WILL BE JUSTIFIED.&#8221; Romans 2:12-13.

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If the &#8216;doers&#8217; of the Law WILL BE JUSTIFIED, then obviously someone is justified by the Law! A vast majority of professing Christians and professing Dispensationalists think that believing our gospel (#2 here) simply gains one a place in heaven, but nothing could be farther from the truth. There will be myriads and myriads of individual hosts in heaven that are NOT members of Christ&#8217;s Body called, justified and glorified by obeying our gospel. God is gathering together &#8220;TWO&#8221; separate groups (Bride &#8216;and&#8217; Body) for very special and specific &#8216;heavenly&#8217; purposes for judging the world and the angels (Body of Christ = that&#8217;s us) and for making &#8216;intercession&#8217; (Bride of Christ = Peter, John and James) as a &#8220;Kingdom of Priests&#8221; (Rev. 1:6, 5:10) standing &#8220;BEFORE the throne&#8221; (Rev. 7:14-17). However (this is the important part), these are only &#8216;two&#8217; groups (rulers and priests) not to mention all of the heavenly hosts of heaven itself! Everyone called to God to become a member of the &#8220;Body of Christ&#8221; is justified by faith APART from works (Rom. 4:4-6), but the general population of heaven is justified before God in a variety of different ways; which includes being justified as &#8216;doers of the Law&#8217; described above. Peter, John, James, Cornelius, the Samarians of Acts 8:12-17, and the disciples of Acts 19:1-6 are all examples of members of the Prophetic Kingdom &#8220;Bride&#8221; (Jn 3:29 = Church #1) who are &#8220;justified by works and not by faith alone.&#8221; James writes about the Kingdom Bride, saying,

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&#8220;But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,&#8221; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by WORKS and NOT by faith alone.&#8221; James 2:20-24.

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Above we have &#8216;doers of the Law&#8217; justified before God AND right here we have members of Peter&#8217;s Kingdom &#8216;Bride&#8217; justified &#8220;by works and not by faith alone,&#8221; and many Dispy&#8217;s continue to believe EVERYONE is justified like a member of Christ&#8217;s Body. No sir. Rightly Dividing (2Tim. 2:15) the Word of Truth means reading every word in the &#8216;true context&#8217; through which God has laid things out in His Living Word. Yes. A member of Christ&#8217;s BODY receives eternal salvation as the free gift of God (Rom. 6:23), but that rule does NOT apply to EVERYONE. Christ is teaching &#8220;Kingdom Doctrine&#8221; to a Kingdom Disciple, saying,

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&#8220;And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?" And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS." Matthew 19:16-17.

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What? I thought eternal life was the &#8216;gift of God&#8217; for EVERYONE? No sir. Paul is teaching &#8220;Dispensational Truth&#8221; for the members of &#8220;Christ&#8217;s BODY&#8221; throughout his Epistles with parts addressed using &#8216;true context&#8217; TO Gentiles &#8216;and&#8217; Jews under Mosaic Law (Read Romans 2 again). Can Gentiles obey Christ&#8217;s commands to Israel ONLY (Matt. 15:24) and obtain eternal life by keeping the commandments? No! Again, Christ is teaching &#8220;Kingdom Doctrine&#8221; to members of Israel (nation/people) AND to members of the &#8216;called out&#8217; Prophetic Kingdom &#8220;Bride&#8221; (&#8220;My Church&#8221; = Matt. 16:16-19, 18:17-18). Israel and those obeying the &#8220;Gospel of the Kingdom&#8221; are saved by keeping the commandments, because &#8216;they&#8217; are indeed justified by &#8216;works and not by faith alone.&#8217; Christ tells you that only a specific group is saved in context of the &#8220;Gospel of the Kingdom&#8221;:

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"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. This &#8220;Gospel of the Kingdom&#8221; (Gospel #1) shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.&#8221; Matthew 24:13-14.

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[FONT=&quot]Everyone called to God through the &#8220;Gospel of the Kingdom,&#8221; like the Jews in Acts 2 on the Day of Pentecost, must endure to the end of their lives to be saved, because they are justified by works and NOT by faith alone. ONLY the members of Christ&#8217;s Body have eternal security IN Christ Jesus, because we have been crucified with Christ (Gal. [FONT=&quot]2:20[/FONT][FONT=&quot]) to be raised up with Christ (Col. 3:1-3) to be seated with Christ in the heavenly places that are IN Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:6). However, these &#8216;dispensational truths&#8217; fully applicable to the members of Christ&#8217;s Body have NOTHING whatsoever to do with Gentiles, Jews or the members of Peter&#8217;s Prophetic Kingdom Bride. Dispy&#8217;s say there are three, four or seven dispensations under God, when in reality there are hundreds and even thousands of different households/administrations with many never mentioned in Scripture even once. Even so, we are not allowed to mix and match doctrinal precepts dispensed through Paul &#8216;to&#8217; the members of Christ&#8217;s Body to just anyone we wish . . . [/FONT][/FONT]

If the Bible says all Isreal will be saved, and it does, it will be saved as a result of their faith, as with every other person.

No! :0) We agree that all Israel will be saved (Rom. 11:25-29), but Paul&#8217;s statement parallels Ezekiel&#8217;s prophecy here:

"Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope has perished. We are completely cut off.' "Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel." Ezekiel 37:11-12.

Think about how anyone can prophesy that all Israel &#8216;will not&#8217; be saved in light of the above prophecy. :0) The difference is that this &#8216;current&#8217; Dispensation of God&#8217;s Grace (Eph. 3:2 = diagram = in red) will by that time BE OVER. Imagine the spectacle of graves being opened and an entire people resurrected right out in the open and in the world today. People would run to believe in our gospel NOT because God called them (1Thes. 2:13-14), but because of the power of God being manifested all around them. God has stopped doing His miracles in the presence of men, or salvation by grace THROUGH FAITH (Eph. 2:8-10) would be a complete impossibility. However, when Elijah returns to restore all things (Matt. 17:10-11, Acts 3:19-26), THEN all of the great signs and wonders will return AND &#8220;all Israel will be saved.&#8221;

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[RND]

No, and dispensationalism doesn't teach that that person does. Dispensationalism teaches that those who are justified are justified by faith alone. If the Bible says all Isreal will be saved, and it does, it will be saved as a result of their faith, as with every other person. Yet at some point in time all Israel will be saved, yet by their individual faith, not as a result of their birth.

Isn't true that dispensationalism teaches two (2) "second" comings? First, the "secret" rapture where Christ comes for the Church and then, seven years later, Christ comes for the Jews and the left-overs?

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Every prophecy attributed to the Children of Israel was 'fulfilled' in Jesus. That why Paul could say that if you believe in Christ then one is a fellow citizen with the saints.

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

 

[RND]

One must be a literal son or daughter of Jacob to be considered of Israel. It is a very select group. When the Scriptures speak of Israel it is to these it is referring. Those who can, after the flesh call Jacob grandpa.

Nope.

See Romans 4

Abraham received the promises of God before he became circumcised, not afterward - verse 9. Abraham is the father of them that are uncircumcised but walk in faith - verse 12. The promises given to Abraham were not of law but of faith - verse 14.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

Isn't true that dispensationalism teaches two (2) "second" comings? First, the "secret" rapture where Christ comes for the Church and then, seven years later, Christ comes for the Jews and the left-overs?

The whole series of events from the rapture through the tribulation and Jesus' 2nd coming to the earth is called "The Day of the Lord."

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:

In Romans 9:6 Paul was referring to a subset of Israel within Israel. Paul did not say Gentiles are Israel.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Paul is clearly speaking of the Jews, as the context demonstrates:

Romans 11:27-31 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." 28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

Could only be the Jews...

30 Just as you [Gentiles] who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their [the Jews] disobedience, 31 so they [the Jews] too have now become disobedient in order that they [the Jews] too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you [Gentiles].

Every prophecy attributed to the Children of Israel was 'fulfilled' in Jesus.

There are covenant promises that still remain to be fulfilled...

That why Paul could say that if you believe in Christ then one is a fellow citizen with the saints.

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

"Fellow" citizen means that Jews and Gentiles are regarded as equals before God. It doesn't mean that Gentiles have now become Jews - Israel. Co-heirs means the two groups - Jews and Gentiles - are separate but equal.


LDG

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

Nope.

See Romans 4

Abraham received the promises of God before he became circumcised, not afterward - verse 9. Abraham is the father of them that are uncircumcised but walk in faith - verse 12. The promises given to Abraham were not of law but of faith - verse 14.

That is a point that all dispensationalists already hold - Abraham is the "faith father" of all the believing Gentiles. Jerry's point though, is that Abraham has physical descendants - the Jews, who are Israel. Paul pointed this out in Romans 4:

Romans 4:16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring-- not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.


LDG

 

[cyberlizard]

just asking.... but why did he circumcise himself (if he had already recieved the covenant by faith - would this not count is secondary works).

Steve

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

just asking.... but why did he circumcise himself (if he had already recieved the covenant by faith - would this not count is secondary works).

Steve

Its like the difference between justification and sanctification. Abraham was given unconditional promises and credited with righteousness - justified. Circumcision symbolized a setting apart for the Lord - sanctification. Just as we Christians are given salvation and then commanded by God to imitate Christ, so also Abraham was justified through faith and then given specific commands by God to follow.

Also there are two different types of covenants associated with Abraham: Gen 15:9-21 is in the form of an unconditional royal grant and Gen 17 is in the form of a conditional suzerain-vassal treaty. There were no conditions for the Gen 15 covenant, in fact it was God who "cut" the covenant, not Abraham. The Gen 17 covenant is conditional, based on the circumcision (or lack of it) of Abraham and his descendants.


LDG

 

[Notrash]

That is a point that all dispensationalists already hold - Abraham is the "faith father" of all the believing Gentiles. Jerry's point though, is that Abraham has physical descendants - the Jews, who are Israel. Paul pointed this out in Romans 4:

Romans 4:16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring-- not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.
LDG

Those physical descendants have no heiritage of the promise apart from faith. The law came after faith and is inferior to faith and seperate from these promises discussed. Preceeding verses.

13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

Picking vs 16 out of context makes it appear that it says that the promise of faith comes not only to all his physical offspring, but also to those who have faith like Abraham. In the context of Chapter 4 and especially the preceeding 2 verses, Paul is saying the exact opposite.

Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed (of faith); not to that only which is of the law, (JEWS) but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Paul is saying that the promises given to Abraham (the gospel Gal 3:8) are offered not only to those of the law, but to ALL mankind who are of faith of the seed (Jesus). Paul begins chapter 4 with a question: What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

The answer is that he found out that the promises were apart from law or his physical descendancy.

Compare again Gal 3;8, 16.
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.

16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

Those physical descendants have no heiritage of the promise apart from faith.

Here is what Paul said concerning the heritage of the Jews:
Romans 9:4-5 4 Theirs [the people of Israel] is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

The law came after faith and is inferior to faith and seperate from these promises discussed. Preceeding verses.

In terms of justification, yes. However Paul also said the law was holy (Rom 7:12). So one cannot arbitrarily dismiss the law entirely...it had a role to play in Paul's mind.

13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

Picking vs 16 out of context makes it appear that it says that the promise of faith comes not only to all his physical offspring, but also to those who have faith like Abraham. In the context of Chapter 4 and especially the preceeding 2 verses, Paul is saying the exact opposite.

I'm not sure what you mean by "exact opposite." In verse 16, "Those who are of the law" are believing Jewish Christians, while "those who are of the faith of Abraham" are believing Gentile Christians.

Its only believers who are justified - whether Jewish believers or Gentile believers. So I'm not sure what you are trying to point out here.

Paul is saying that the promises given to Abraham are offered not only to those of the law, but to ALL mankind who are of faith of the seed (Jesus). Paul begins chapter 4 with a question: What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

The answer is that he found out that the promises were apart from circumcision (law)

Yes, the Abrahamic promises of Gen 15 are apart from circumcision. I don't know of any dispensationalist who would say otherwise...

Does that mean circumcision was of no value? Not according to Paul (Romans 3:1-2). Also Paul did not circumcise Titus, but Paul did circumcise Timothy.


LDG

 

[RND]

The whole series of events from the rapture through the tribulation and Jesus' 2nd coming to the earth is called "The Day of the Lord."

Therefore dispensationalism teaches 2 second comings, one "secret" and then one seven years later.

In Romans 9:6 Paul was referring to a subset of Israel within Israel. Paul did not say Gentiles are Israel.

Um, you'll need to read it again and in context.

Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children....

In other words, NOT because they are the seed of Abraham. Physical blood doesn't make one and Israelite, faith does.

Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

Paul is clearly speaking of the Jews, as the context demonstrates:

Romans 11:27-31 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." 28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

Could only be the Jews...

30 Just as you [Gentiles] who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their [the Jews] disobedience, 31 so they [the Jews] too have now become disobedient in order that they [the Jews] too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you [Gentiles].

Taking things into proper context one must read Romans 10 and Romans 11. Israel isn't saved by blood lest the promise is made not effect. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the words of God. This way God can rightfully say he has reserved a remnant of His people Israel.

There are covenant promises that still remain to be fulfilled...

Nope, not a one.

"Fellow" citizen means that Jews and Gentiles are regarded as equals before God. It doesn't mean that Gentiles have now become Jews - Israel. Co-heirs means the two groups - Jews and Gentiles - are separate but equal.

One could only believe this if one suspends the entirety of the Gospel and the letters of the Apostles. The weight of evidence shows that Gentiles and Jews are saved only one way, by the Blood of the Lamb.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

Um, you'll need to read it again and in context.

Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children....

In other words, NOT because they are the seed of Abraham. Physical blood doesn't make one and Israelite, faith does.

So why use an ellipsis for Rom 9:7? Here is Romans 9:7 without the ellipsis:

7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."

Its clear that the latter half of verse 7 just doesn't agree with your statement. If Paul was attempting to tell the Jews that physical blood doesn't make one an Israelite, its rather contrary to add something about their descendant Isaac.

The "seed of Abraham" means Abraham had other children besides Isaac. But not all of Abraham's natural children were given the Abrahamic promises - only one was given the promises, Isaac. Paul's point is that the covenant promises came through Isaac and not through any of Abraham's natural children. And here is verse 7 in its context:

7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."
10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad-- in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls-- she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Just as Isaac was singled out from Abraham's natural children, so also Jacob was singled out by the Lord and given the Abrahamic covenant promises. Rom 9:1-13 doesn't say anything about Gentiles becoming Jews or that Gentiles have become Israel. Its clear that Paul was discussing the Jews, whom he calls his brothers:

Romans 9:3-4 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel.

Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

And look at the context of Rom 2:28-29, with verse 27:

Romans 2:27 The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.

Paul was speaking to Jews in verse 27.

Romans 3:1 What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision?

And Rom 3:1 shows that Jews and circumcision were still under discussion after Rom 2:28-29. So its not referring to Gentiles, but to Jews.

Taking things into proper context one must read Romans 10 and Romans 11. Israel isn't saved by blood lest the promise is made not effect. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the words of God.

I don't know anyone who is saying Israel - Jews - are saved apart from the gospel.

This way God can rightfully say he has reserved a remnant of His people Israel.

One only speaks of a remnant of God's people Israel, when Israel is the Jews. If the church is Israel, then its nonsense to say God is saving a remnant of His church, since all the living stones within the church are already saved.

Nope, not a one.

Zechariah 14:3-4 3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.

This prophecy is definitely in the future. This is connected with Psalm 110:

Psalm 110:1 The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."

And as the author of Hebrews explains, this is yet future:

Hebrews 10:12-13 2 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool,

One could only believe this if one suspends the entirety of the Gospel and the letters of the Apostles. The weight of evidence shows that Gentiles and Jews are saved only one way, by the Blood of the Lamb.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

You have obviously made a mistake in assuming I teach different ways of salvation. This is the verse I had in mind for my statement:

Ephesians 3:6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.


LDG

 

[Notrash]

Here is what Paul said concerning the heritage of the Jews .....28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. the Jews:
Romans 9:4-5 4 Theirs [the people of Israel] is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

No, Here is what Paul said concerning the heritage of the Jews concerning the promises.

Rom 4:13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression. 16. Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed (of faith); not to that only which is of the law, (JEWS) but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

And also Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

Why then did Paul write Rom 9:4-5?? He is explaining his feelings about why he wishes that he himself were cut off (killed)for their sake (vs 1-3).
1) I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh,

Paul is not making a doctrinal disertation about the blessings remaining on genetic Israelites, but rather incorporates vs 4 and 5 to explain his heaviness of heart for them. Some of them would very soon perish in unbelief as the old conditional land covenant was brought to a close along with the temple worship and sacrifices. Paul writes in the present tense "whos are the adoption as sons..etc" because it is those who participated in the old covenant as Commonwealth of Israel who should have understood the types and figures that pointed towards Christ and the new coveant. That system was still at that time operating up to the desolation and the ending of the Old Covenant requirements and types. Salvation from wrath was still available to those of the old covenant Israel as Paul explains in Ch 11, but Paul knew that many of his kindred according to the flesh would not believe but would stumble at the stumbling stone as they sought righteousness by works of the Law or had faith in their physical descendency of Abraham.

As we read on in ch 9 we read
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

Paul then counters the expected and logical argument of 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Meaning, is God being unrighteous by the upcoming vengeance and punishment coming upon Jerusalem or by casting off His people?

Paul then associates those unbelieving of fleshly Israel who are destined for destruction with Pharoah who was raised up for unbelief, and as Jerusalem is compared with Sodom and Gomorrah.
29 And as Isaiah said before:
"Unless the Lord of [fn11] Sabaoth had left us a seed,
We would have become like Sodom,
And we would have been made like Gomorrah."

Continue reading Ch 9.

Paul continues to defend God's right to destroy and "cast off" even those of the promises, the covenants, the glory, and those who pertain the adoption as sons, even those through whos physical lineage Christ came (according to flesh).

21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Then a summary of the thoughts and ideas generated by the discussion Paul has with his hearers through this letter.

30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles,(in genearal, along with believing Jews) who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, (the Yet unbelieving Part of the Commonwealth) pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.

 

[Notrash]

All this chapter sets the stage for 10 and 11.
In 10 Paul continues his defense of some of these ideas and then introduces the idea that some of the commonwealth of Israel were prophecied to be brought to Christ through the jealousy of Righteousness that is formed in the beliving Gentiles.

19 But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says:
"I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation,
I will move you to anger by a foolish nation."

Then Paul says in Chapter 11:1; I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not!

Paul is not asking if God has cast away those descendants of Abraham from the future heritage or a future restoration. Paul is addressing the question that would be raised in the mind of the reader about weather or not there is any reason to share Christ with any of he yet unbelieving Israelites if Paul has already said that those who are not "all Israel of faith" are destined for destruction as Sodom/Gomorroh or as Pharoah in the Desolation and destruciton of Jerusalem and the soon to be end of sacrifice.

Paul explains his response to this question from Personal experience...that he was even a persecuter of Christians but was called and elect of Christ.

Paul is describing the situation of in very unique circumstances of those of his bretheren who are living in a time when Paul knows that many of them will continue in disbelief until their deaths in Jerusalem even while the old covenant and it's forms and types are being practiced.

He comes back to an idea that he mentioned as a prophecy from the previous chapter. Vs 29."I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation,
I will move you to anger by a foolish nation."


He uses this in Ch 11:
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! (spiritual filling, not full number)
13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, (by judgement against righteousness by obedience to Law) what will their acceptance (of righteousness by faith in Christ) be but life from the dead?

Paul is not talking about restoration of a genetic group back to the old national 'land covenant' but he is talking about there still being a reason to hope and witness to those of his bretheren who have not yet obtained righteousness thorugh faith in Christ and "save some of them" even yet before their upcoming deaths and the ending of the sacrifice. And how is this to happen? Through jealousy that was prophecied to come upon them by "those who are not a nation" as he mentioned in Ch 10.

Then we come to these famous verses:
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

In its' context of the surrounding chapters, this 'mystery' is that some of those who initially did not believe the gospel are yest to be witnessed to even before the impending judgement upon Jerusalem BECAUSE, just as Paul once persecuted Christians but was then saved, others like him are destined to recieve Christ due to the fullness (spiritual fullness of the Spirit) that has been given to people who believe in CHrist of all nations and the subsequent "jealousy" that it creates in those God "YET" will call to himself. Others of Israel of the law will be made to "anger".

Blindness and unbelief has happened to unbelieving part of Isreal until the fullness of the nations has 'come in' (happened) meaning until salvation and the fullness of the Spirit has happened so that the Jews of fleshly Israel who are yet elect (like Paul was) might yet believe and will be brought to salvation and faith through this jealousy created by this spiritual fullness of some peoples of all nations (gentiles)

The emphasis of the present tense may now (and may yet) obtain mercy in the closing summary reflects on this idea that some Jews will 'now' (then) be drawn to Christ and faith in his salvation through this being made jealous by those who 'are not a nation'.

28Concerning the gospel they are (then presently, just as Paul was)enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they (those who would yet believe) are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been (REMAINED) disobedient, that through the mercy shown you (GENTILES) they also may obtain mercy. 32For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

Again, there is nothing prophetic in Romans 11 beyond the then present tense salvation of some of those who were still in unbelief of 'Israel" of the Law or Flesh but who would and could then come to Christ through being made jealous by the testimony of the nations recieving the covenant and blessings promised to Abraham.

We cannot pull verses, phrases, paragraphs out of their contextual understanding.