Jesus's humanity

[paul becke]

Well, I am well aware that we are NOT talking about Christian orthodoxy here, but this whole theological argument relies on the notion that God is essentially above of and apart from mankind to begin with.
I suspect this is why mystics such as Meister Eckhart were considered heretics in their day: a panentheistic conception of reality simply clashed with the notion of deity that the mainline church believed in.

Would you be a happy slave?

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

C S Lewis pointed out that so extraordinary were Jesus' claims that he could only have been God or a madman. No other prophet has ever made such claims for himself.

The latter part of that statement is incorrect (as there've been plenty of people claiming godhood and being regarded as divine before the advent of Jesus), and the first half misses plenty of other options apart from Lunatic, Liar, or Lord:
I can think of at LEAST another possible trilemma off the top of my head.
Misunderstood, Misrepresented, or Myth.
All we know about Jesus comes from redacted compilations that were penned decades later by people who'd already started to mingle Judaic eschatology with Hellenic life-death-rebirth deities, turning the Anointed One into God Incarnate. No matter how honest they were, or how close they stuck to their original sources - it's not Jesus's words we are reading, but theirs. Based on the Scriptures alone, it's impossible to tell what the historical Jesus (if he existed) was actually like, and whether he claimed godhood on top of being the messiah (if he even claimed that much).

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Would you be a happy slave?

I can see that you've read my signature, but does this pertain to this thread?
And naturally, I would not be a happy slave. Slavery, even in its kindest forms, is an abomination.

 

[VeroObscura]

C S Lewis pointed out that so extraordinary were Jesus' claims that he could only have been God or a madman. No other prophet has ever made such claims for himself.

CS Lewis was a chump. If we are going to discuss his false trilemma then you need to look it up on google first. It was debunked within days of writing it.

 

[Zoness]

OK, obviously you do not want to sit next to a judge sentencing you to hell.

God is not going to force Himself on you against your will, but is there something you would like Him to do for you?

Prove in some meaningful way his existence because the questions of the Bible, Jesus' character, Christian morality and the apocalypse are all irrelevant to me unless I can some how establish that not only is there a God that has the Christian personality, but is also triune to be compliant with church doctrine.

I'm not sure if that proof is something I want, though. After all, the idea that a Christian God exists is as equally terrifying as the idea that he doesn't.

 

[theophilus40]

Slavery, even in its kindest forms, is an abomination.

All of us are slaves whether we realize it or not.

Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
(Romans 6:16 ESV)
​

We were created to worship and serve God and we will only know perfect and complete happiness when we are fulfilling that purpose.

 

[bling]

I understand, and in some ways agree. At the same time God lives in and through all human beings, regardless of their religious beliefs. As such, it is through other human beings that God put's His arms around us, listening to us and showing us a loving concern.

.

I do not agree with that idea "God lives in and through everyone". All mature adults have free will, so if an individual wants to selfishly control his/her own life they can refuse to have God in themselves.

 

[bling]

I'm not sure if that proof is something I want, though. After all, the idea that a Christian God exists is as equally terrifying as the idea that he doesn't.

I have heard that same statement from other agnostics and atheist.

Would you have some positive meaningful change in your life if you did have assurance of the Christian God’s existence?

Do you think God is really needing or even wanting your acknowledgement of His existence without some meaningful change?

Is God doing the best He can by you, in that He is leaving Himself unknown to you?

God is not looking for anything from you, but is trying to gift you with unbelievable charitable gifts, if you will just accept these gifts.

 

[VeroObscura]

I have heard that same statement from other agnostics and atheist.

Would you have some positive meaningful change in your life if you did have assurance of the Christian God’s existence?

No. See the quote you are referring to.

Do you think God is really needing or even wanting your acknowledgement of His existence without some meaningful change?

This assumes the existence of a god. But if he did exist, no of course not, thus rendering all religious power obsolete.

Is God doing the best He can by you, in that He is leaving Himself unknown to you?

Well then, let us continue without him and encourage others to similarly adopt this "best" course of action. You first...

God is not looking for anything from you, but is trying to gift you with unbelievable charitable gifts, if you will just accept these gifts. [/FONT]

Please provide citations and evidence for how you came by this extraordinary claim to know 1) that God exists and 2) that YOU know his mind, in that order.

 

[dlamberth]

I do not agree with that idea "God lives in and through everyone". All mature adults have free will, so if an individual wants to selfishly control his/her own life they can refuse to have God in themselves.

I don't believe that God is separate from us or any of His Creation. I see all of this around us, including human beings, as an activity of God. God is not separate or apart from His own Creation sitting up in the sky somewhere casting down judgments. We don't have a choice about the matter, the Divine essence is within every one of us. Where the issue lies, in my opinion, is in our awareness and awakening to the Divine flow that does runs through every bit of life.

.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

All of us are slaves whether we realize it or not.

Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
(Romans 6:16 ESV)
​

We were created to worship and serve God and we will only know perfect and complete happiness when we are fulfilling that purpose.

"Slavery is freedom."

That is what I read when I look at those lines above, and it's what every single cult leader (political or religious) in history has taught in order to keep his followers in line.
It basically amounts to metaphysical fascism: if all stand in line and march in lockstep, they'll be as united in purpose as a bundle of twigs, and become unbreakable like the "fascis"-axe.

 

[bling]

No. See the quote you are referring to.

I understand the “no” but what “quote” am I referring to?

This assumes the existence of a god. But if he did exist, no of course not, thus rendering all religious power obsolete.

Could you explain “thus rendering all religious power obsolete.”?

Well then, let us continue without him and encourage others to similarly adopt this "best" course of action. You first...

For those that will not change their life through knowledge of God’s existence, they are really better off not knowing God exist.
For those willing to accept God’s help (charity/grace/mercy/Love/forgiveness), it is important for them to know God exist.

Please provide citations and evidence for how you came by this extraordinary claim to know 1) that God exists and 2) that YOU know his mind, in that order.

I know God exist through the very personal guarantee God has given me and all sincere true Christians have this in the form of the indwelling Holy Spirit. This guarantee is readily available to you, but you have to want God to come into your life. My guarantee cannot be your guarantee of God’s existence since the indwelling Holy Spirit is given only as the guarantee for believers.

God is Love (this is pure unconditional unselfish sacrificial charity) so whatever is truly Loving is of God. I also have the indwelling Holy Spirit to help me with this.

 

[bling]

I don't believe that God is separate from us or any of His Creation. I see all of this around us, including human beings, as an activity of God. God is not separate or apart from His own Creation sitting up in the sky somewhere casting down judgments. We don't have a choice about the matter, the Divine essence is within every one of us. Where the issue lies, in my opinion, is in our awareness and awakening to the Divine flow that does runs through every bit of life.

.

God is at everyone’s elbow, but that does not mean God lives in everyone.

To say God is in the sinner is to make God a part of the sinning. Christian can sin but they first have to quench the Spirit.

 

[gord44]

God is at everyone’s elbow, but that does not mean God lives in everyone.

To say God is in the sinner is to make God a part of the sinning. Christian can sin but they first have to quench the Spirit.

God can be whatever, whenever, however. Only human ideas limit what God can be. Good, bad or ugly.

 

[Zoness]

I have heard that same statement from other agnostics and atheist.

Would you have some positive meaningful change in your life if you did have assurance of the Christian God’s existence?

The Christian God is a jealous God and is very picky. I'm not sure that his/her existence is exactly a good thing off hand if most of the world will be tortured for eternity.

It depends really on how we understand the Christian God.

Do you think God is really needing or even wanting your acknowledgement of His existence without some meaningful change?

Presumably God would want me to obey all of his orders and wishes. That would probably bring about change in my life.

Is God doing the best He can by you, in that He is leaving Himself unknown to you?

If God exists, presumably he will give me some credit for my doubt as he was the one who gave me the ability to reason and use logic. However Christian scripture indicates that those who do not accept God and the Christian religion completely will be damned. In that regard, he would NOT be doing the best by not revealing himself, depriving me of the knowledge of God and leaving me to depend on blind faith which I won't do.

God is not looking for anything from you, but is trying to gift you with unbelievable charitable gifts, if you will just accept these gifts.

Charitable is an odd choice of words since the alternative is again...absolute suffering. What exactly are these "gifts", anyways?

 

[bling]

God can be whatever, whenever, however. Only human ideas limit what God can be. Good, bad or ugly.

God cannot say he does only good and turn around and do bad stuff, so God himself can limit his own choices and/or actions.

 

[bling]

The Christian God is a jealous God and is very picky. I'm not sure that his/her existence is exactly a good thing off hand if most of the world will be tortured for eternity.

I am talking about “knowledge” of God’s existence and if God does or does not exist.

So assuming the Christian God that you feel is being described by Christians does exist: would that knowledge of his existence bring about positive meaningful change in your life?

Presumably God would want me to obey all of his orders and wishes. That would probably bring about change in my life.

Would that “change” be positive and in what way?

Would it be good news?

Why would you obey?

If God exists, presumably he will give me some credit for my doubt as he was the one who gave me the ability to reason and use logic. However Christian scripture indicates that those who do not accept God and the Christian religion completely will be damned. In that regard, he would NOT be doing the best by not revealing himself, depriving me of the knowledge of God and leaving me to depend on blind faith which I won't do.

Logic does not point to the nonexistence of God.

Faith is need to help you fulfill your earthly objective, so if you have knowledge of God’s existence you do not need faith in God’s existence, do you?

The lowliest mature adult person on earth can put his trust in a benevolent Creator for help, so for you to place your faith in a benevolent creator is something any one can do, so it is a humbling activity. To be self-reliant, avoid accepting charity can be a source of pride.

Charitable is an odd choice of words since the alternative is again...absolute suffering. What exactly are these "gifts", anyways?

We are talking about getting really huge gifts you have not earned, deserve or can pay anything back on, so that makes it pure charity. You may not like the idea of taking charity, do not like feeling obligated to anyone, and you may preferred to be “loved” for how you want people to perceive you to be and not be loved in spite of who you are. God is not going to “force” these gifts on you, so you will have to accept these gifts as they were given (as charity) and you will have likely alternatives to these gifts so they are not being forced on you (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season).

The main gift is this Godly type Love that makes us like God himself (which is like Christ), so do you want unselfish Love, to be unselfish? Eternal life in heaven with God is also thrown in. being part of God’s objective while here on earth is an added privilege and honor.