Jesus' first miracle? Why Water into wine?

[cns3e]

3: And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. 4: Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

Why would Jesus do something before his time just because his mother asked him to? Did she manipulate him?

Why would he make more wine for people who are already "well drunk"? This has never made sense to me. It makes him feel that Jesus was trying to make him mother happy and fit in with others, but wasn't it a sin for him to create a miracle before the right time? Did Jesus sin?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

3: And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. 4: Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

Why would Jesus do something before his time just because his mother asked him to? Did she manipulate him?

Why would he make more wine for people who are already "well drunk"? This has never made sense to me. It makes him feel that Jesus was trying to make him mother happy and fit in with others, but wasn't it a sin for him to create a miracle before the right time? Did Jesus sin?

Jesus, in the role of God, has no obligation to fulfill mankind's misspent desires. She didn't manipulate Him in the sence that John and James set their mother up to manipulate Jesus, imo, but it does sound like a Jesabel spirit to put mankind's orders above the will of God. Notice how Jesus came to serve in this instance. Here it was not His will or Gods.

 

[KleinerApfel]

No, no sin at all.

I wonder if Jesus did it with a little gleam in His eye, knowing that religious people for evermore would be perplexed that His first miracle was making a load of drunk people drunker!

It wasn't time when Mary asked at first, but then Jesus looked to Father to check, (remember, He says He always does what He sees the Father doing) and surprise, surprise! Yes, Father says it IS now time!

How very beautiful and apt that the very first miracle is at a marriage feast, what a picture of the coming Kingdom and the joyous celebration with His Bride the Church.

And at the feast when we meet with the Lord there will again be wine. I think it will be a wine that surpasses anything that anyone on earth ever drank, because, just as the steward in the gospel says of the groom, our heavenly Bridegroom will have saved the best until the end!

 

[cns3e]

But I still don't understand why he would choose a miracle that would make the drunk drunker. I thought it was a sin to be drunk and that drunkness can pre-dispose you to sin.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

But I still don't understand why he would choose a miracle that would make the drunk drunker. I thought it was a sin to be drunk and that drunkness can pre-dispose you to sin.

A study of Noah may give some enlightenment as to why when a new beginning comes in drunkeness is the first thing established...betsamia..the way of mankind *cough*the devil* works

 

[Tamara224]

But I still don't understand why he would choose a miracle that would make the drunk drunker. I thought it was a sin to be drunk and that drunkness can pre-dispose you to sin.

Maybe getting drunk isn't the big bad sin you've been taught to believe it is?

Maybe habitual drunkenness is the problem but getting a little drunk at a wedding celebration might actually be okay...

 

[WileyCoyote]

3: And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. 4: Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

Why would Jesus do something before his time just because his mother asked him to? Did she manipulate him?

Why would he make more wine for people who are already "well drunk"? This has never made sense to me. It makes him feel that Jesus was trying to make him mother happy and fit in with others, but wasn't it a sin for him to create a miracle before the right time? Did Jesus sin?

Jesus knew how to PARTAY!!!!!

 

[Leimeng]

Maybe getting drunk isn't the big bad sin you've been taught to believe it is?

Maybe habitual drunkenness is the problem but getting a little drunk at a wedding celebration might actually be okay...

~ QFT!!!
~ Continue to discuss amongst yourselves...

Peace,

Leimeng

Flatulo Ergo Sum ~~~

(***Insert Personal One Liner Here***)

 

[cns3e]

there are several verses in the Bible that say drunkness is bad. The only time I've seen anyone advocate for Wine in the Bible is here with Jesus' first miracle and if you're sick.

Proverbs chapter 20 (CEV)
1It isn't smart to get drunk!
Drinking makes a fool of you
and leads to fights.
Hosea chapter 4 (TEV)
11 The Lord says, "Wine, both old and new, is robbing my people of their senses!"
Proverbs chapter 23 (TEV)
19 Listen, my child, be wise and give serious thought to the way you live. 20 Don't associate with people who drink too much wine or stuff themselves with food. 21 Drunkards and gluttons will be reduced to poverty. If all you do is eat and sleep, you will soon be wearing rags. 29 Show me people who drink too much, who have to try out fancy drinks, and I will show you people who are miserable and sorry for themselves, always causing trouble and always complaining. Their eyes are bloodshot, and they have bruises that could have been avoided.
31 Don't let wine tempt you, even though it is rich red, and it sparkles in the cup, and it goes down smoothly. 32 The next morning you will feel as if you had been bitten by a poisonous snake. 33 Weird sights will appear before your eyes, and you will not be able to think or speak clearly. 34 You will feel as if you were out on the ocean, seasick, swinging high up in the rigging of a tossing ship. 35 "I must have been hit," you will say; "I must have been beaten up, but I don't remember it. Why can't I wake up? I need another drink."
Isaiah chapter 28 (NLT)
1 Destruction is certain for the city of Samaria - the pride and joy of the drunkards of Israel! 7 Israel is being led by drunks! The priests and prophets reel and stagger from beer and wine. They make stupid mistakes as they carry out their responsibilities. Proverbs chapter 31 (TEV)
1 These are the solemn words which King Lemuel's mother said to him:
2 "You are my own dear son, the answer to my prayers. What shall I tell you?
4 Listen, Lemuel. Kings should not drink wine or have a craving for alcohol. 5 When they drink, they forget the laws and ignore the rights of people in need.
6 Alcohol is for people who are dying, for those who are in misery. 7 Let them drink and forget their poverty and unhappiness."
Ephesians chapter 5 (NLT)
18 Don't be drunk with wine, because that will ruin your life.
Instead, let the Holy Spirit fill and control you.
Galatians chapter 5 (NLT)
16 I advise you to live according to your new life in the Holy Spirit. Then you won't be doing what your sinful nature craves. 17 The old sinful nature loves to do evil, which is just opposite from what the Holy Spirit wants. And the Spirit gives us desires that are opposite from what the sinful nature desires. These two forces are constantly fighting each other, and your choices are never free from this conflict. ....
19 When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, your lives will produce these evil results: sexual immorality, impure thoughts, eagerness for lustful pleasure, 20 idolatry, participation in demonic activities, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, divisions, the feeling that everyone is wrong except those in your own little group, 21 envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other kinds of sin.
Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

 

[cns3e]

I just found this online. Tell me what you think:
From The New Testament Commentary: Vol. III--John (1886) by B. W. Johnson:

It must be borne in mind that among the Greeks and Romans and in Palestine there were three kinds of wine: 1. Fermented wines, which, however, were very unlike our fiery liquors, and contained only a small per cent of alcohol. These were mixed with two or three parts of water. The laws of Zaleucus, the Locrian, put to death anyone who drank unmixed wine, except as medicine. The fermented wine, at first mild, and then diluted with water, was [46] a drink as used, that had no intoxicating power unless used in enormous quantities. 2. New wine, the fresh juice of the grape, like our new cider, not intoxicating. 3. Wines in which, by boiling the unfermented juice of the grape, or by the addition of certain drugs, the process of fermentation was stopped, and which had no intoxicating properties. We cannot surely determine which kind the Savior made here, but we agree with Whedon, who says: "We see no reason for supposing that the wine of the present occasion was that upon which Scripture places its strongest interdict, (Proverbs 20:1; 23:31; Isaiah 22:13,) rather than that eulogized as a blessing (Psalms 104:15; Isaiah 55:1)." Even adopting the view that it was fermented wine, it was totally unlike the fiery and undiluted drinks sold as wines in saloons, used in many families, offered at hotels and wine parties, and even poured out at communion tables.​

 

[lismore]

Maybe he wanted to have a drink.

 

[Charles L. Blackman]

I think that's a load of tosh.

I dont know what tosh is, but if it is equivalent to bull snot, I agree.

I don't think there is any support for the non alocholoic wine theory of our overly religious brothers and sisters.

 

[lismore]

Drinking wine is not a 'sin'. Its some of the conduct that can happen when drunk that is wrong.

 

[goldenboy]

IIRC, Jesus didn't give booze to those who were well drunk, did he? Didn't the host say 'Usually, people wait till they are out of the good stuff (well drunk time), and then THEY bring out the good stuff, but you do it NOW(before they are well drunk)?
That's the way I remember it.
Could be wrong, tho.
I heard some people say that the reason that Jesus made wine was a foreshadowing of the life He came to bring. Changing our water lives into wine lives.

 

[JimB]

Unless I am mistaken, I think the OP wants to know why Jesus’ first miracle was something as innocuous as turning a few gallons of tap water into a tasty Merlo, not the tired old argument about whether biblical wine was alcoholic or not. It was, of course (Eph. 5.18), but that’s not the question.

And it’s a question I have always wondered about myself. It seems like it was the most inconsequential of all his miracles, yet important enough to be his first one.

I don’t get it.

~Jim

Ever notice how society honors its present conformists and its past troublemakers?​

 

[matt_estrada]

This story has nothing to do with Jesus turning physical water into physical wine; therefore we should not use it to talk about a biblical view on alcohol. This is an allegory, weaved together using several OT and NT texts. "Water" symbolizes "the Law and the Prpohets" or "the Father's dispensation". "Wine" symbolizes "the Holy Spirit" (His dispensation). The lack of "wine" symbolizes the spiritual famine of Amos 8:11ff. "The mother of Jesus" symbolizes the OT people of God. When she asks Jesus to produce more "wine", she is asking for the fulfillment of Amos 9:11ff. Jesus says "My hour" has not yet come, referring to His hour of cross and resurrection. HOWEVER, as the six stone jars (representing Judaism) are filled with "water" (representing the Father's dispensation), we are seeing TIME pass before our eyes. When the jars are "filled to the brim" (which, in the Greek, can be translated to mean "the end of a period of time"), then has Jesus' HOUR arrived. In that moment He dies and rises and the "water" (Father's dispensation) is turned into "wine" (Spirit's dispensation). Then the author can say "Jesus revealed His glory (doxa- alluding again to cross and resurrection) and His disciples believed". In the Synoptics, the disciples are painted as slow to believe, even after seeing so many miracles of Jesus. The only reason why they "believe" here is because this is AFTER the cross and resurrection. This is post resurrection faith. Do a search for estradablog christian allegorical interpretations to read my paper on Jn 2 and surrounding texts. Thanks.

 

[Faulty]

This story has nothing to do with Jesus turning physical water into physical wine; therefore we should not use it to talk about a biblical view on alcohol. This is an allegory, weaved together using several OT and NT texts. "Water" symbolizes "the Law and the Prpohets" or "the Father's dispensation". "Wine" symbolizes "the Holy Spirit" (His dispensation). The lack of "wine" symbolizes the spiritual famine of Amos 8:11ff. "The mother of Jesus" symbolizes the OT people of God. When she asks Jesus to produce more "wine", she is asking for the fulfillment of Amos 9:11ff. Jesus says "My hour" has not yet come, referring to His hour of cross and resurrection. HOWEVER, as the six stone jars (representing Judaism) are filled with "water" (representing the Father's dispensation), we are seeing TIME pass before our eyes. When the jars are "filled to the brim" (which, in the Greek, can be translated to mean "the end of a period of time"), then has Jesus' HOUR arrived. In that moment He dies and rises and the "water" (Father's dispensation) is turned into "wine" (Spirit's dispensation). Then the author can say "Jesus revealed His glory (doxa- alluding again to cross and resurrection) and His disciples believed". In the Synoptics, the disciples are painted as slow to believe, even after seeing so many miracles of Jesus. The only reason why they "believe" here is because this is AFTER the cross and resurrection. This is post resurrection faith. Do a search for estradablog christian allegorical interpretations to read my paper on Jn 2 and surrounding texts. Thanks.

Interesting. The conclusion of this passage in John 2 states "After this he went down to Capernaum, with his mother and his brothers and his disciples, and they stayed there for a few days." (v12)

Since you imply the water to wine didn't actually happen in a physical location as scripture states, Cana in Galilee, what is the allegory you assign to the passage in verse 12? Or perhaps the point is that Jesus was in Galilee, then an allegory happened, then he left?

Plus, at what verse do you start picking up anything literal and what makes that verse so special that it deserves such differing treatment?

 

[KingZzub]

~ QFT!!!
~ Continue to discuss amongst yourselves...

Peace,

Leimeng

Flatulo Ergo Sum ~~~

(***Insert Personal One Liner Here***)

Surely rather than quoting it is okay to be drunk for truth, you should have quoted the truth, such as Galatians 5.19-21.

 

[KingZzub]

"There is not a hint that the wine He made was intoxicating. It was fresh-made wine. New-made wine is never intoxicating. It is not intoxicating until some time after the process of fermentation has set in. Fermentation is a process of decay. There is not a hint that our Lord produced alcohol, which is a product of decay and death. He produced a living wine uncontaminated by fermentation."

- R A Torrey