Jesus did not do away with the law in Mat 5:17

[Bob corrigan]

Mat 5:17 is the most quoted verse to "prove" that Jesus did away with the law and that believers today are not under the Mosaic moral law in the Old Testament. People today love to proclaim that believers are not under any rules because of God's "grace" and love. Yes, a free pass to sin and ask God for forgiveness and with a snap of God's finger, all is forgiven. Some even claim that believers need not ask forgiveness for any sin because Jesus's death on the cross covered all of our sins, past, present and future.

One again, these false teachings come from the traditions of men and are not found in Scripture.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets. I am not come to destroy but to fulfill.

As I have stated countless times, any time you read anything in the New Testament, you have to discover the Jewish meaning of what has been written down in our English translations. Scripture wasn't written in English nor did Jesus speak English. Who was Jesus speaking to? Not us who speak English today. He spoke Hebrew/Aramaic to Jewish people. He spoke to other Jews within a Jewish cultural context. Culture always determines the meaning of the words used. The two main concepts used in determining what things meant in ancient culture are studying the history and culture of the people, in that time era.

Just as the terms "bind" and "loose" were used in conjunction with the interpretation of Scripture, "destroy the Law and the prophets" and "fulfill" were also terms used when determining what Scripture taught. In the 1st century, if one rabbi thought that another rabbi was misinterpreting Scripture, he would tell the other rabbi, "You are destroying the law and the prophets." If a rabbi was believed to interpret Scripture correctly, he was said to be "fulfilling Scripture."

So, Jesus had communicated to the Jewish listeners: "Do not think I came to misinterpret Scripture. I came not to put forth false teaching but to teach the correct meaning of Scripture."

That is what the Jewish people understood Jesus to have said. If you get away from the false teaching practice of only reading certain verses and no further, Mat 5:18 clearly shows that heaven and earth will pass away until all things are accomplished. Guess what? "All things" won't be accomplished until Jesus returns, Mat 26:64, and separates the sheep from the goats, with the sheep being given eternal life and the goats being punished, Mat 25:31-46.

If you want to run to Rom 10:4, you need to know that instead of the verse reading that Jesus is the end of the law, the verse, properly translated will read, "For Christ is the GOAL/PURPOSE of the Law."

Do "thou shalt not murder, steal, commit adultery or bear false witness," still apply to believers today? Those are part of the Old Testament Law. Did Jesus do away with those commandments? The Mosaic Law instructed for God's people to be kind to strangers, to show mercy, to help out the poor and needy and honor thy father and mother. Are those a part of a believer's life today or did Jesus do away with them?
The Law needs to be looked at as instructions for the Jews then and believers today rather than a strict set of rules.

When Jesus said, "Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, Mat 4:4, are believers today supposed to live that way? That instruction comes from Deut 8:3. Or how about, "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God," Mat 4:7? Does that apply today? It comes straight from Deut 6:16. What about "Thou shall worship the Lord thy God and him only, Mat 4:10? Jesus was quoting Deut 6:13. What about Mat 19:19, "Honour your father and mother, Ex 20:12 and "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, Lev 19:18? What about what Paul wrote in Rom 12:19? He took this from Deut 32:35. Most of you know that Deuteronomy means a "re-telling or a re-giving" of the Law. The book of Deuteronomy is quoted over 60 times in the New Testament. The book of Romans has 30 direct quotes or references from the Old Testament. There are direct quotes, paraphrases or references to/from the Old Testament in every New Testament book!

If Jesus was going to do away with the law, why did he say;

Lk 11:28 Yea, rather blessed are they that hear the word of God and keep it.

John 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21 He that has my commandments and keeps them is the one who loves me...

John 14:23 If a man love me, he will keep my words...

John 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in His love.

The huge majority of instructions in the New Testament come straight from the Old Testament. The Old and New Testaments are not two separate parts of Scripture; they are intertwined. The New is just a continuation of the story.

 

[Clare73]

Mat 5:17 is the most quoted verse to "prove" that Jesus did away

I'm sure we agree that in the NT we are not "under the law" for salvation and justification (imputed righteousness) which are both by faith (Eph 2:8-9, Ro 3:28).
And I'm sure we agree that in the NT the law has been summed up in one rule: love of God and neighbor as self, which love has fulfilled the law (Ro13:8-9, Gal 3:25).

Jesus did not do away with law, it is fulfilled by love.

People today love to proclaim that believers are not under any rules because of God's "grace" and love. Yes, a free pass to sin and ask God for forgiveness and with a snap of God's finger, all is forgiven. Some even claim that believers need not ask forgiveness for any sin because Jesus's death on the cross covered all of our sins, past, present and future.

One again, these false teachings come from the traditions of men and are not found in Scripture.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets. I am not come to destroy but to fulfill.

As I have stated countless times, any time you read anything in the New Testament, you have to discover the Jewish meaning of what has been written down in our English translations. Scripture wasn't written in English nor did Jesus speak English. Who was Jesus speaking to? Not us who speak English today. He spoke Hebrew/Aramaic to Jewish people. He spoke to other Jews within a Jewish cultural context. Culture always determines the meaning of the words used. The two main concepts used in determining what things meant in ancient culture are studying the history and culture of the people, in that time era.

Just as the terms "bind" and "loose" were used in conjunction with the interpretation of Scripture, "destroy the Law and the prophets" and "fulfill" were also terms used when determining what Scripture taught. In the 1st century, if one rabbi thought that another rabbi was misinterpreting Scripture, he would tell the other rabbi, "You are destroying the law and the prophets." If a rabbi was believed to interpret Scripture correctly, he was said to be "fulfilling Scripture."

So, Jesus had communicated to the Jewish listeners: "Do not think I came to misinterpret Scripture. I came not to put forth false teaching but to teach the correct meaning of Scripture."

That is what the Jewish people understood Jesus to have said. If you get away from the false teaching practice of only reading certain verses and no further, Mat 5:18 clearly shows that heaven and earth will pass away until all things are accomplished. Guess what? "All things" won't be accomplished until Jesus returns, Mat 26:64, and separates the sheep from the goats, with the sheep being given eternal life and the goats being punished, Mat 25:31-46.

If you want to run to Rom 10:4, you need to know that instead of the verse reading that Jesus is the end of the law, the verse, properly translated will read, "For Christ is the GOAL/PURPOSE of the Law."

Do "thou shalt not murder, steal, commit adultery or bear false witness," still apply to believers today? Those are part of the Old Testament Law. Did Jesus do away with those commandments? The Mosaic Law instructed for God's people to be kind to strangers, to show mercy, to help out the poor and needy and honor thy father and mother. Are those a part of a believer's life today or did Jesus do away with them?
The Law needs to be looked at as instructions for the Jews then and believers today rather than a strict set of rules.

When Jesus said, "Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, Mat 4:4, are believers today supposed to live that way? That instruction comes from Deut 8:3. Or how about, "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God," Mat 4:7? Does that apply today? It comes straight from Deut 6:16. What about "Thou shall worship the Lord thy God and him only, Mat 4:10? Jesus was quoting Deut 6:13. What about Mat 19:19, "Honour your father and mother, Ex 20:12 and "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, Lev 19:18? What about what Paul wrote in Rom 12:19? He took this from Deut 32:35. Most of you know that Deuteronomy means a "re-telling or a re-giving" of the Law. The book of Deuteronomy is quoted over 60 times in the New Testament. The book of Romans has 30 direct quotes or references from the Old Testament. There are direct quotes, paraphrases or references to/from the Old Testament in every New Testament book!

If Jesus was going to do away with the law, why did he say;

Lk 11:28 Yea, rather blessed are they that hear the word of God and keep it.

John 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21 He that has my commandments and keeps them is the one who loves me...

John 14:23 If a man love me, he will keep my words...

John 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in His love.

The huge majority of instructions in the New Testament come straight from the Old Testament. The Old and New Testaments are not two separate parts of Scripture; they are intertwined. The New is just a continuation of the story.

Actually the NT is the fulfillment of the OT.
The OT is the NT concealed, the NT is the OT revealed.

 

[Soyeong]

Mat 5:17 is the most quoted verse to "prove" that Jesus did away with the law and that believers today are not under the Mosaic moral law in the Old Testament. People today love to proclaim that believers are not under any rules because of God's "grace" and love. Yes, a free pass to sin and ask God for forgiveness and with a snap of God's finger, all is forgiven. Some even claim that believers need not ask forgiveness for any sin because Jesus's death on the cross covered all of our sins, past, present and future.

In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, in Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him His way that he might know Him and Israel too, and in Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so it is strange that people want God to be gracious to them instead of teaching them to obey His law for how to do those things.

One again, these false teachings come from the traditions of men and are not found in Scripture.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets. I am not come to destroy but to fulfill.

As I have stated countless times, any time you read anything in the New Testament, you have to discover the Jewish meaning of what has been written down in our English translations. Scripture wasn't written in English nor did Jesus speak English. Who was Jesus speaking to? Not us who speak English today. He spoke Hebrew/Aramaic to Jewish people. He spoke to other Jews within a Jewish cultural context. Culture always determines the meaning of the words used. The two main concepts used in determining what things meant in ancient culture are studying the history and culture of the people, in that time era.

Just as the terms "bind" and "loose" were used in conjunction with the interpretation of Scripture, "destroy the Law and the prophets" and "fulfill" were also terms used when determining what Scripture taught. In the 1st century, if one rabbi thought that another rabbi was misinterpreting Scripture, he would tell the other rabbi, "You are destroying the law and the prophets." If a rabbi was believed to interpret Scripture correctly, he was said to be "fulfilling Scripture."

So, Jesus had communicated to the Jewish listeners: "Do not think I came to misinterpret Scripture. I came not to put forth false teaching but to teach the correct meaning of Scripture."

That is what the Jewish people understood Jesus to have said. If you get away from the false teaching practice of only reading certain verses and no further, Mat 5:18 clearly shows that heaven and earth will pass away until all things are accomplished. Guess what? "All things" won't be accomplished until Jesus returns, Mat 26:64, and separates the sheep from the goats, with the sheep being given eternal life and the goats being punished, Mat 25:31-46.

There is also much discussion in the Talmud about how to fulfill the law in regard to how to correctly obey it.

If you want to run to Rom 10:4, you need to know that instead of the verse reading that Jesus is the end of the law, the verse, properly translated will read, "For Christ is the GOAL/PURPOSE of the Law."

Do "thou shalt not murder, steal, commit adultery or bear false witness," still apply to believers today? Those are part of the Old Testament Law. Did Jesus do away with those commandments? The Mosaic Law instructed for God's people to be kind to strangers, to show mercy, to help out the poor and needy and honor thy father and mother. Are those a part of a believer's life today or did Jesus do away with them?
The Law needs to be looked at as instructions for the Jews then and believers today rather than a strict set of rules.

When Jesus said, "Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, Mat 4:4, are believers today supposed to live that way? That instruction comes from Deut 8:3. Or how about, "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God," Mat 4:7? Does that apply today? It comes straight from Deut 6:16. What about "Thou shall worship the Lord thy God and him only, Mat 4:10? Jesus was quoting Deut 6:13. What about Mat 19:19, "Honour your father and mother, Ex 20:12 and "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, Lev 19:18? What about what Paul wrote in Rom 12:19? He took this from Deut 32:35. Most of you know that Deuteronomy means a "re-telling or a re-giving" of the Law. The book of Deuteronomy is quoted over 60 times in the New Testament. The book of Romans has 30 direct quotes or references from the Old Testament. There are direct quotes, paraphrases or references to/from the Old Testament in every New Testament book!

If Jesus was going to do away with the law, why did he say;

Lk 11:28 Yea, rather blessed are they that hear the word of God and keep it.

John 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21 He that has my commandments and keeps them is the one who loves me...

John 14:23 If a man love me, he will keep my words...

John 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in His love.

The huge majority of instructions in the New Testament come straight from the Old Testament. The Old and New Testaments are not two separate parts of Scripture; they are intertwined. The New is just a continuation of the story.

Agreed.

 

[BBAS 64]

Good day,

In Christ the law has been fulfilled, it's demands (righteous requirement) are fulfilled.

It's ability to condemn is lost.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

What the Law could not do ( by design) God did by sending his own son. The (law) of the Spirit enables us to do that which the flesh is unable to do.

In Him,

Bill

 

[PathOfPhanuel]

Mat 5:17 is the most quoted verse to "prove" that Jesus did away with the law and that believers today are not under the Mosaic moral law in the Old Testament. People today love to proclaim that believers are not under any rules because of God's "grace" and love. Yes, a free pass to sin and ask God for forgiveness and with a snap of God's finger, all is forgiven. Some even claim that believers need not ask forgiveness for any sin because Jesus's death on the cross covered all of our sins, past, present and future.

One again, these false teachings come from the traditions of men and are not found in Scripture.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets. I am not come to destroy but to fulfill.

As I have stated countless times, any time you read anything in the New Testament, you have to discover the Jewish meaning of what has been written down in our English translations. Scripture wasn't written in English nor did Jesus speak English. Who was Jesus speaking to? Not us who speak English today. He spoke Hebrew/Aramaic to Jewish people. He spoke to other Jews within a Jewish cultural context. Culture always determines the meaning of the words used. The two main concepts used in determining what things meant in ancient culture are studying the history and culture of the people, in that time era.

Just as the terms "bind" and "loose" were used in conjunction with the interpretation of Scripture, "destroy the Law and the prophets" and "fulfill" were also terms used when determining what Scripture taught. In the 1st century, if one rabbi thought that another rabbi was misinterpreting Scripture, he would tell the other rabbi, "You are destroying the law and the prophets." If a rabbi was believed to interpret Scripture correctly, he was said to be "fulfilling Scripture."

So, Jesus had communicated to the Jewish listeners: "Do not think I came to misinterpret Scripture. I came not to put forth false teaching but to teach the correct meaning of Scripture."

That is what the Jewish people understood Jesus to have said. If you get away from the false teaching practice of only reading certain verses and no further, Mat 5:18 clearly shows that heaven and earth will pass away until all things are accomplished. Guess what? "All things" won't be accomplished until Jesus returns, Mat 26:64, and separates the sheep from the goats, with the sheep being given eternal life and the goats being punished, Mat 25:31-46.

If you want to run to Rom 10:4, you need to know that instead of the verse reading that Jesus is the end of the law, the verse, properly translated will read, "For Christ is the GOAL/PURPOSE of the Law."

Do "thou shalt not murder, steal, commit adultery or bear false witness," still apply to believers today? Those are part of the Old Testament Law. Did Jesus do away with those commandments? The Mosaic Law instructed for God's people to be kind to strangers, to show mercy, to help out the poor and needy and honor thy father and mother. Are those a part of a believer's life today or did Jesus do away with them?
The Law needs to be looked at as instructions for the Jews then and believers today rather than a strict set of rules.

When Jesus said, "Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, Mat 4:4, are believers today supposed to live that way? That instruction comes from Deut 8:3. Or how about, "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God," Mat 4:7? Does that apply today? It comes straight from Deut 6:16. What about "Thou shall worship the Lord thy God and him only, Mat 4:10? Jesus was quoting Deut 6:13. What about Mat 19:19, "Honour your father and mother, Ex 20:12 and "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, Lev 19:18? What about what Paul wrote in Rom 12:19? He took this from Deut 32:35. Most of you know that Deuteronomy means a "re-telling or a re-giving" of the Law. The book of Deuteronomy is quoted over 60 times in the New Testament. The book of Romans has 30 direct quotes or references from the Old Testament. There are direct quotes, paraphrases or references to/from the Old Testament in every New Testament book!

If Jesus was going to do away with the law, why did he say;

Lk 11:28 Yea, rather blessed are they that hear the word of God and keep it.

John 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21 He that has my commandments and keeps them is the one who loves me...

John 14:23 If a man love me, he will keep my words...

John 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in His love.

The huge majority of instructions in the New Testament come straight from the Old Testament. The Old and New Testaments are not two separate parts of Scripture; they are intertwined. The New is just a continuation of the story.

 

[sandman]

Nothing new ...
This was the same rhetoric that Paul had to deal with in his ministry... which is seen in Acts and some of the epistles ..

Trying to combine the old covenant with the new is the reason for Hebrews.... which is addressed to born again believers, but those who have never walked in the freedom of the new birth……. those who are still zealous for the law..... And actually James,1&2 Peter, 1,2&3 John and Jude closely aligns themselves to this also.

 

[Chaleb]

"Christ is the END of the LAW for righteoueness, to/for everyone who Believes."" )= Born again.

"Christ came to redeem us from the CURSE OF THE LAW"...

The Born again "are not under the LAW, but Under GRACE".

 

[Soyeong]

Good day,

In Christ the law has been fulfilled, it's demands (righteous requirement) are fulfilled.

NAS Greek Lexicon: pleroo:
to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment

Christ fulfilled the law by spending his ministry teaching his followers how to correctly obey it by word and by example.

It's ability to condemn is lost.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

What the Law could not do ( by design) God did by sending his own son. The (law) of the Spirit enables us to do that which the flesh is unable to do.

In Him,

Bill

In Roman 8:1, it does not say that the Law of God has lost its ability to condemn, but that there is now wherefore no condemnation specifically for those who are in Christ. In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, so there is specifically no condemnation for those who are walking in obedience to the Law of God. In Roman 7:25-8:2, Paul contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin and contrasted with Law of the Spirit with the law of sin and death, so he equated the Law of God with the law of the Spirit. We have been set free from the law of sin and death in order to be free to obey the Law of God according to the Spirit. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God.

 

[Chaleb]

Christ fulfilled the law by spending his ministry teaching his followers how to correctly obey it by word and by example.

Jesus fulfilled the law (for us the Believers) by being born under the law and keeping it.
This is how He "fulfilled it", and then died so that this fulfillment is an integral part of Redemption that is : "the Gift of Salvation" and "The Gift of Righteousness".

 

[Soyeong]

Nothing new ...
This was the same rhetoric that Paul had to deal with in his ministry... which is seen in Acts and some of the epistles ..

Trying to combine the old covenant with the new is the reason for Hebrews.... which is addressed to born again believers, but those who have never walked in the freedom of the new birth……. those who are still zealous for the law..... And actually James,1&2 Peter, 1,2&3 John and Jude closely aligns themselves to this also.

While we are under the New Covenant and not the Mosaic Covenant, we are nevertheless still under the same God with the same nature and therefore the same law for how to act in accordance with His nature (Jeremiah 31:33). For example, the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness is straightforwardly based on God's righteousness, not on a particular covenant, and God's righteousness is eternal, so any instructions that He has ever given for how to act in accordance with His righteousness are eternally valid regardless of which covenant someone is under. In John 3:4-10, those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to God's law are not born again, in Romans 8:4-14, those who are born of the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set in the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to His law, and in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so it is those who are not zealous for God's law who have never walked in the freedom of the new birth.

 

[Chaleb]

those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to God's law are not born again, in Romans 8:4-14, those who are born of the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set in the flesh who are enemies of God

Paul defines the enemies of God and of the Cross as anyone who tries to get born again Christians to worry about the Law as if the Law is Salvation, or God's Grace.

These "cursed".... Galatians 1:8........will say things like this......>"God saved you so that you can go back to the Law and keep it".

Yet...>>"Christ has redeemed the born again from the Curse of the Law".

So, we see how these deceived Law obsessed people have no connection to the Cross or God's Grace or The Gift of Salvation.

 

[Soyeong]

"Christ is the END of the LAW for righteoueness, to/for everyone who Believes."" )= Born again.

In Matthew 7:23, Christ said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so knowing Christ is the goal of the law. In Romans 9:30-10:4, the Israelites had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowing Him, so the failed to attain righteousness because they misunderstood the goal of the law by pursuing it as though righteousness were the result of works instead of pursuing it as through righteousness were by faith in Christ, for knowing Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Romans 10:5-10, this faith references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to saying that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey, that obedience to it brings life, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God rose Jesus from the dead, so nothing in this passage is speaking about ending any of God's laws, but just the opposite. In 1 John 3:4-10, those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to God's law are not born again.

"Christ came to redeem us from the CURSE OF THE LAW"...

In Deuteronomy 28, it describes the blessing of the law for those who choose to live in obedience to it and the curse of the law for those who do not, so being set free from the curse of the law is being set free from the curse of living in disobedience to it so that we can be free to enjoy the blessing of the law. In Deuteronomy 30:15-20, obedience to the law brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! According to this passage, are you choosing life or death?

The Born again "are not under the LAW, but Under GRACE".

In Romans 6:14, Paul described the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe the Law of God, but rather it is the law of sin where sin had dominion over us. In Romans 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so we are still under the Law of God, but are not under the law of sin.

Jesus fulfilled the law (for us the Believers) by being born under the law and keeping it.
This is how He "fulfilled it", and then died so that this fulfillment is an integral part of Redemption that is : "the Gift of Salvation" and "The Gift of Righteousness".

Agreed, Jesus fulfilled by setting an example for us to follow of how to correctly keep it, as well as through spend his ministry teaching how to to correctly obey it. Nothing in Matthew 5 has anything to do with his death, so you are not seeking to understand Matthew 5:17-19 in the way that his audience understood him.

Paul defines the enemies of God and of the Cross as anyone who tries to get born again Christians to worry about the Law as if the Law is Salvation, or God's Grace.

Rather, in Romans 8:4-14, Paul said that those who are born again with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to God's law. It is absurd to think that the enemies of God are those who are leading people to obey Him as if God doesn't want to be obeyed.

These "cursed".... Galatians 1:8........will say things like this......>"God saved you so that you can go back to the Law and keep it".

Yet...>>"Christ has redeemed the born again from the Curse of the Law".

The Gospel that was taught by Jesus, Peter, and Paul in Matthew 4:17-23, Acts 2:38, and Romans 15:18-19 involved bringing people to obedience to God's law.

So, we see how these deceived Law obsessed people have no connection to the Cross or God's Grace or The Gift of Salvation.

In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation involves being trained by grace to obey God's law and Jesus gave himself to redeems from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to have a connection to the cross nd to the gift of salvation is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law (Acts 21:20).

 

[Chaleb]

our salvation involves being trained by grace to obey God's law

Salvation is Jesus on the Cross.

All the born again exist in the Kingdom of God, were "God is A Spirit".
This is why Paul teaches that the born again are "seated in Heavenly places IN CHRIST">...(where Christ is right now, and God).

= This is heaven.

Do you not understand that there is no Law of Moses in Heaven?
Do you not understand that there is no Law of Moses in Heaven?

Its time you understood it, Soyeong.

The Law of Moses is for sinners, who are directed by the Law to turn to the Cross to find Salvation.,, and ... "the born again are no longer under the law, but Under GRACE".

Paul teaches it this way..

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. =the Law.


Its the devil who wants you under the Law, after Christ has redeemed you from it, because the Law is a curse to you, as its the law that defines you as a SINNER.

"Christ has redeemed the born again, from the CURSE of the Law".

So, when a person is trying to get Christians back under the law, they are "anti-Cross".

 

[Soyeong]

Salvation is Jesus on the Cross.

All the born again exist in the Kingdom of God, were "God is A Spirit".
This is why Paul teaches that the born again are "seated in Heavenly places IN CHRIST">...(where Christ is right now, and God).

= This is heaven.

Do you not understand that there is no Law of Moses in Heaven?
Do you not understand that there is no Law of Moses in Heaven?

Its time you understood it, Soyeong.

The Law of Moses is for sinners, who are directed by the Law to turn to the Cross to find Salvation.,, and ... "the born again are no longer under the law, but Under GRACE".

Paul teaches it this way..

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. =the Law.


Its the devil who wants you under the Law, after Christ has redeemed you from it, because the Law is a curse to you, as its the law that defines you as a SINNER.

"Christ has redeemed the born again, from the CURSE of the Law".

So, when a person is trying to get Christians back under the law, they are "anti-Cross".

Do you think that in the OT the Devil had the role of deceiving people to disobey what God has commanded, but in the NT the Devil has the role of deceiving people to obey what God has commanded? Can you really not recognize how absurd it is for you to interpret the Bible as speaking against obeying God or to think that the way to follow Jesus is by refusing to follow what he taught?

 

[Chaleb]

Do you think that in the OT the Devil had the role of deceiving people to disobey what God has commanded, but in the NT the Devil has the role of deceiving people to obey what God has commanded?

The NT , the New Covenant, is the Cross of Christ, as the Grace of God... THE Blood ATONEMENT.

What you need to do, Is stop obsessing on the LAW, and start loving the Cross of Christ.

Isnt it time you posted about the Cross?

Where are those posts and Threads?
What are you waiting for?
An invitation?
I just invited you, and so did God, as = The Cross is the power of God unto Salvation.

The Law is designed to send you there so that God can redeem you "From the Curse of the Law" as "the Law is the power of sin, and The power of SIN is THE LAW"

Now, Listen to me.

CHRISTians, are all made so, by the CROSS of Christ and the Holy Spirit.

LEGALISTS, are ALL created by the LAW.


Choose, Soyeong.
That's on you

 

[Soyeong]

The NT , the New Covenant, is the Cross of Christ, as the Grace of God... THE Blood ATONEMENT.

What you need to do, Is stop obsessing on the LAW, and start loving the Cross of Christ.

Isnt it time you posted about the Cross?

Where are those posts and Threads?
What are you waiting for?
An invitation?
I just invited you, and so did God, as = The Cross is the power of God unto Salvation.

The Law is designed to send you there so that God can redeem you "From the Curse of the Law" as "the Law is the power of sin, and The power of SIN is THE LAW"

Now, Listen to me.

CHRISTians, are all made so, by the CROSS of Christ and the Holy Spirit.

LEGALISTS, are ALL created by the LAW.


Choose, Soyeong.
That's on you

Please answer my question.

According to Titus 2:11-14, God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey His law, yet you see obeying this teaching as rejecting God's grace, so you don't understand God's grace. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, yet you see being zealous for doing good works as rejecting the cross, so you don't understand what Jesus accomplished through the cross. Jesus is God's word word made flesh, yet you see loving God's word as being opposed to love Jesus, so you don't understand who he is. I do post about the cross all the time, but you keep ignoring it. God said that His law is for our own good in order to bless us, yet you think that God gave the law in order to cruse His children, so you don't understand why God gave the law. In Romans 7:7, the Law is God is not sinful, but how we know what sin is, yet you think it is the power of sin, so you don't understand what sin is. Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey God's by word and by example, yet you want to follow Christ instead of following what he taught, so you don't understand what he taught. In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law, yet you consider the Spirit to be opposed to it, so you don't understand the role of the Spirit.

Choose this day whether you are going to have faith in God to correctly divide between right and wrong through His law or lean on your own understanding (Proverbs 3:1-6). As for me and my house we will serve the Lord.

 

[expos4ever]

Mat 5:17 is the most quoted verse to "prove" that Jesus did away with the law and that believers today are not under the Mosaic moral law in the Old Testament. People today love to proclaim that believers are not under any rules because of God's "grace" and love. Yes, a free pass to sin....

Please name one poster who ever said we have a free pass to sin. Or failing that, name one poster whose posts legitimately justify your concluding that they believe there is a free license to sin.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets. I am not come to destroy but to fulfill.

As I have stated countless times, any time you read anything in the New Testament, you have to discover the Jewish meaning of what has been written down in our English translations. Scripture wasn't written in English nor did Jesus speak English. Who was Jesus speaking to? Not us who speak English today. He spoke Hebrew/Aramaic to Jewish people. He spoke to other Jews within a Jewish cultural context. Culture always determines the meaning of the words used. The two main concepts used in determining what things meant in ancient culture are studying the history and culture of the people, in that time era.

This argument actually works against your position, at least in one way as I will now demonstrate. In Mt 5:17-18, Jesus says the law will not pass away until "heaven and earth pass away". This certainly sounds like the Law is still in force since heaven and earth are still here.

But, as you point out, one needs to interpret scripture accounting for the Jewish culture in which it was written. Jesus is arguably drawing on a Biblical tradition of using apocalyptic language in a metaphorical sense to refer to events in the here and now. This is not mere speculation – we have concrete evidence. Isaiah writes:

10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light

What was going on? Babylon was being destroyed, never to be rebuilt. And that has already happened.

Conclusion: Jesus is not necessarily speaking literally when He says the Law will last until heaven and earth pass away.

Just as the terms "bind" and "loose" were used in conjunction with the interpretation of Scripture, "destroy the Law and the prophets" and "fulfill" were also terms used when determining what Scripture taught. In the 1st century, if one rabbi thought that another rabbi was misinterpreting Scripture, he would tell the other rabbi, "You are destroying the law and the prophets." If a rabbi was believed to interpret Scripture correctly, he was said to be "fulfilling Scripture."

So, Jesus had communicated to the Jewish listeners: "Do not think I came to misinterpret Scripture. I came not to put forth false teaching but to teach the correct meaning of Scripture."

I would like to see some evidence to support this interpretation. From a logic of the passage perspective, what you are suggesting seems unworkable. Here is the whole passage:

Do not presume that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not [g]the smallest letter or stroke of a letter shall pass from the Law, until all is accomplished!

The "for" at the beginning of verse 18 tells us that verse 18 amplifies / continues the thought of verse 17. But verse 18 is decidedly about the timing of the end of the Law. This only makes sense if verse 17 were addressing matters related to the law coming to an end. But you are denying this. Let's see how the entire passage works on your interpretation:

Do not think I came to misinterpret Scripture. I came not to put forth false teaching but to teach the correct meaning of Scripture.. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not [g]the smallest letter or stroke of a letter shall pass from the Law, until all is accomplished!

See the problem? The "for" explanation of verse 18, which deals with the timing of the end of the law, is logically disconnected from a statement about false teaching vs correct teaching. No one would ever say "I am coming to teach law correctly for the law will be here till heaven and earth pass away". On the other hand, the text as actually rendered in the NASB manages the logical transition from verse 17 to 18 perfectly since both verses deal with matters of timing.

 

[expos4ever]

If you want to run to Rom 10:4, you need to know that instead of the verse reading that Jesus is the end of the law, the verse, properly translated will read, "For Christ is the GOAL/PURPOSE of the Law."

Yes, but if Christ is the goal of the Law, this means that Christ is what the Law was aiming at. But, when Christ arrived, the goal was achieved. When the winning goal has been scored, do you keep on playing? Here is the point: when people use this argument - about how Christ is not really the end of the Law - but rather the goal or purpose of it, they remain conspicuously silent on the possibility that it is at least plausible that the achievement of a goal and purpose can also bring something to an end. If I get on a plane with the goal of reaching Paris, do I keep on flying once I get there? Besides, look at chapter 9 - it is a retelling of the story of Israel. And stories involve beginnings and endings. As the obvious continuation of the story we get in chapter 9, the reader has every right to expect that something might come to an end.

Do "thou shalt not murder, steal, commit adultery or bear false witness," still apply to believers today? Those are part of the Old Testament Law. Did Jesus do away with those commandments?

Strawman. Those of us who believe the Law has come to an end can very legitimately argue that we now turn to the indwelling Spirit for moral guidance, not a prescriptive code.

There is an episode of Seinfeld where Jerry finds out his dry cleaner has been wearing his (Jerry's) clothes. He then confronts the dry cleaner, who then protests "I would never do that Jerry, it is against the dry cleaners code!" Jerry replies "do you need a code to tell you that it's not okay to wear someone else's clothes?"

With the indwelling Spirit, we no longer need a "law" to tell us what sin is.

If Jesus was going to do away with the law, why did he say;

Lk 11:28 Yea, rather blessed are they that hear the word of God and keep it.

John 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21 He that has my commandments and keeps them is the one who loves me...

John 14:23 If a man love me, he will keep my words...

John 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in His love.

You are assuming too much here - how do you know that by "my commandments", Jesus is referring to the Law of Moses, and not His own pronouncements?

The huge majority of instructions in the New Testament come straight from the Old Testament. The Old and New Testaments are not two separate parts of Scripture; they are intertwined. The New is just a continuation of the story.

Indeed, but it is in the very nature of "stories" that things can come to an end within the story. Yes the NT is a continuation of the story. But ye surely must acknowledge that, in a given story, not all the characters survive all the way through.

 

[Chaleb]

Please answer my question.

According to Titus 2:11-14, God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey His law, yet you see obeying this teaching as rejecting God's grace

God did not send Jesus to the Cross so that you can go back to the Old Testament and try to obey Moses Law.

Christianity is not about Moses Law.

MOSES LAW

Do you understand that the "LAW" you are obessing on is MOSES LAW.

THe Born again are not under the "CURSE OF THE LAW".

The born again are not to OBSESS on the Law.
You Obsess on it, and that is why there is NO CROSS OF CHRIST in your Posts or Threads.

The LAW is for the LAWLESS.

The Born again are "not under The LAW but UNDER GRACE".

 

[expos4ever]

Mat 5:18 clearly shows that heaven and earth will pass away until all things are accomplished. Guess what? "All things" won't be accomplished until Jesus returns, Mat 26:64, and separates the sheep from the goats, with the sheep being given eternal life and the goats being punished, Mat 25:31-46.

I understand your logic but there is a problem.

Jesus says this:

For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not [g]the smallest letter or stroke of a letter shall pass from the Law, until all is accomplished!

All is accomplished? Consider the dying words of Jesus:

Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit

While you may, understandably, think that all things are accomplished only upon Jesus's return, Jesus himself appears to believe that at least something has been accomplished, that is finished, on the cross.