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Jesus as the Holy Spirit

Discussion in 'Paterology, Christology & Pneumatology' started by Veritas238, Nov 20, 2012.

  1. Veritas238

    Veritas238 Guest

    I have been studying the trinity lately. One thing that I think I understand in the doctrine itself is that each person of the trinity cannot be another person. For example, The Father is not the Son; the Son is not the Father; Neither are the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is neither of the previous Two. If I am wrong on this, please correct me.

    My question is rooted in John 14:16-18
    "16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

    It would seem to me that Jesus is directly identifying himself AS the comforter that was to be IN them, namely the Holy Spirit. Obviously not in a form of flesh, but in spiritual form. When I study comfortless in verse 18, I see that the greek word means orphans. So Jesus is saying that I will not leave you as Orphans, I will come to you. Meaning that He will adopt us and be a Father to us.

    Romans 8:15 shows that we are adopted by the Spirit, and makes us cry out to our Father. But if Christ adopts us, then He is our Father.
    "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father."

    I also see in Corinthians that Paul says.."Now Christ is THAT Spirit."

    I am having a hard time reconciling this passage and seeing the three persons each as their own individual and not as the same person. Can someone please help me understand this from a Trinitarian perspective?

    Thank you in advance!
     
  2. justhappeneduponthis

    justhappeneduponthis Newbie

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    Jesus' crisis of the will in Gethsemane necessitated a separate person from the Father and the Spirit. He had to win this struggle Himself in the passion. He had to show the way to obedience; otherwise He is not honestly our forerunner; neither is He convincingly our identifying High Priest. But praise God there is a Trinity! And our mediator is "the man Christ Jesus".
     
  3. AHJE

    AHJE & amp; amp; amp; amp; amp;

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    Hi Veritas238,

    Jesus is not the Holy Spirit, but He is our Advocate. The Son declares that the Holy Spirit is ANOTHER Advocate. Thus showing that there is indeed a Third Person of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity.

    When Jesus says that "I will come to you" ... this is true of the Father as well. For by the Divine Indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the Father AND the Son also come to dwell in our hearts by what is called SANCTIFYING GRACE (which we receive in Holy Baptism).[Not only the Holy Spirit]

    Also it is helpful to understand what is called CIRCUMINCESSION.
    This simply means that the Father is wholly in the Son and the Son is wholly in the Father and that the Father and the Son are wholly in the Holy Spirit and that the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father AND the Son.

    Another important thing to understand about the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity is that each of the THREE Divine Persons have a UNITY of OPERATION. All that the Father does the Son does AND the Holy Spirit does. The THREE Divine Persons have ONE NATURE and also they have ONE WILL (as God) ... ONE DIVINE WILL.

    Jesus, being both God and Man, possessing 2 Natures, possesses 2 Wills.

    This is the Orthodox Catholic Teaching of Christ.

    God bless you. :)
     
  4. elopez

    elopez Newbie

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    It is correct theology, according to the Trinity, that each persons are not the same but distinct.

    Now, I am not at all understanding how you derive that John 14:16-18 means Christ directly saying he is the Spirit. In fact, there are many indications that point us to the opposite conclusion. In verse 16, Christ is claiming the Father is going to send another Counselor, and that suggests it must be someone other than Christ. In verse 17 Christ says "he will be with you," not "I will be with you." In verse 18 when Christ says "I will be with you" that is in reference to perhaps his second coming which can be seen as parallel to John 14:3: "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."
     
  5. John Zain

    John Zain New Member

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    One thing I can add is ... the Three are ONE in TOTAL UNITY of purpose, and etc.

    .
     
  6. bsd058

    bsd058 Sola and Tota Scripturist

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    I like this response. Even if it came from a Roman Catholic. :thumbsup:

    I don't agree that grace comes by way of baptism, but therein lies a distinction between Roman Catholics and protestants anyways.

    Oh, and the two wills part, I hope you do not believe that there are two persons in the hypostatic union. I think there was one person, and therefore only one will in Jesus Christ. However, I'm open to correction from the Scriptures or plain reason.
     
  7. AHJE

    AHJE & amp; amp; amp; amp; amp;

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    No there are not two Persons in Jesus Christ. Jesus is One Person, the Second Person of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity, that is, God the Son. Jesus is a Divine Person, Eternal and Uncreated as to his Divinity.

    In assuming a real Human Nature, Jesus has a real human rational soul with a real human free will.

    Since Jesus is both Divine and Human, Jesus has a Divine Will and a Human Will and He loved with a real Human Heart (which we call the Sacred Heart of Jesus).

    To underscore everything, ... people are not used to hearing this but Jesus is not, never was, and never will be a Human Person. He is God the Son, a Divine Person. This is why the bottom line question of the Gospels is "WHO do you say that I am?"

    God bless you, bsd058. :)
     
  8. bsd058

    bsd058 Sola and Tota Scripturist

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    Personhood is different from essence. A person can be a person without being divine or human. Jesus was a divine person only before the incarnation. He became a human person at the incarnation without ceasing to be a divine person as well. He merely added to himself humanness. So I might disagree slightly with you there.

    The "who" that Jesus was asking about was in fact the "Son of God," a person who is seen as holding the divine essence with the Father and the Spirit, thereby implying that he was Divine, but he was also human.
     
  9. AHJE

    AHJE & amp; amp; amp; amp; amp;

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    The problem with this, bsd058, is that you are in effect saying that in the Son, there are 2 Persons.

    Jesus can have a human nature, but He is not a Human Person. His Personhood is Divine. He is God the Son.

    This is why we can say that Mary is the Mother of God. Because she is the Mother of the Person of Jesus Christ ... God the Son, Immanuel.

    God bless you. :)
     
  10. bsd058

    bsd058 Sola and Tota Scripturist

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    Ahh! You got me! Theotokos!! Thanks for the correction. I too believe Mary carried the divine person. Thank you.
     
  11. Jpark

    Jpark Contributor

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    1) The confusion stems from Jesus' human nature. But it is evident He no longer has that nature.

    John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt (lived temporarily, set up camp in the flesh) among us...

    1 Cor. 15:45 So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

    2) The Spirit and the Father is one, not two. The separation of the Spirit and the Father is also the cause of the confusion.

    1 Cor. 2:11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.

    Matt. 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.



    Now it becomes clear:

    3) Jesus is God because He has the Holy Spirit in Him.

    1 John 5:6 This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

    John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

    Ephesians 2:18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.

    John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

    He was not abandoned at the garden. And He knew that He was not forsaken.

    4) Jesus is a Spirit.

    John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

    1 John 1:2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us—

    John 12:50 I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”

    John 3:14-15 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
     
  12. Marahuta

    Marahuta Newbie

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    From my understanding...

    About John 14:
    The Comforter which will be sent is the Holy Spirit (also identified as the Spirit of truth). The verse simply says that while Jesus will leave he will not abandon us. Rather he will send the Holy Spirit which will help us on our journey and sometime in the future Jesus will come down too.

    I think Romans 8:15 is also linked with John 14. In Romans Paul is talking the Spirit we have received through baptism (accpetence of Christ and salvation). Now, I am sure you know about the fact that we are saved by authority of the Holy Spirit. That is the Spirit mentioned in Romans. Once we are overcome by the Spirirt and we become true men/women of God we cry out towards God 'Abba, Father'.

    Hope this helped :)

    God bless,
     
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