Jack Smith's team forced to admit they left out evidence

FreeinChrist

CF Advisory team
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2003
145,260
17,462
USA
✟1,757,206.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Brady violations can be discovered at any point. If it's pretrial, there's other ways it can go....like telling the jury a Brady violation occurred, evidence being allowed that wouldn't normally be allowed, dismissing the charges with prejudice, etc.
Yes, Brady violations found to have happened pretrial, as in the prosecution refusing to turn over or intentially withholding evidence that favors the defense, but they are usually only discovered after the defendent is convicted. AND the defense needs to prove that the evidence was material and favorable to the defense.

They are still in the discovery period of the future trial or settlement, so turning evidence over now does not really fit the description of a Brady violation.
A lawyer could explain better.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NxNW
Upvote 0

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
37,682
11,469
✟439,374.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Yes, Brady violations found to have happened pretrial, as in the prosecution refusing to turn over or intentially withholding evidence that favors the defense, but they are usually only discovered after the defendent is convicted. AND the defense needs to prove that the evidence was material and favorable to the defense.

They are still in the discovery period of the future trial or settlement, so turning evidence over now does not really fit the description of a Brady violation.
A lawyer could explain better.

How about I just hand you a real life example so we can be done with this needless back and forth.




WHITE RIVER JUNCTION — A Vermont judge tossed out a criminal case charging a Weathersfield man with sexual assault against a juvenile, ruling from the bench on the eve before the five-year-old case was to begin trial that the state prosecutor withheld potentially exculpatory evidence against the defendant.
Windsor County Superior Court Judge John Treadwell called it “beyond unfortunate” in regard to how a former Windsor County deputy state’s attorney handled prosecution in the case by withholding evidence that could have been used by the defense to undermine the accuser’s credibility, going so far as to excoriate the former prosecutor by name.

There you go....charges dismissed before trial because evidence withheld. not claiming it happens every time, and I doubt anyone knows if the evidence in Trump's case is important enough, but it took me all of a few seconds to find it.

So yes, it can and does happen.




 
Upvote 0

FreeinChrist

CF Advisory team
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2003
145,260
17,462
USA
✟1,757,206.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Note:
"ruling from the bench on the eve before the five-year-old case "

The eve before a 5 year old case.....

A prosecuter intentionally withholding esculpatory evidence after all that time would be reason to throw out the case, especially if it clears the defendent.

But Jack Smith didn't withhold evidence. When it was discovered, only a few months after the first evidence was provided, Jack Smith sent the evidence over. Hard to say if it is evidence that would clear the defendent

"Included in Production 3 is additional CCTV footage from The Mar-a-Lago Club that the Government obtained from the Trump Organization on May 9 and May 12, 2023..."​


Maybe Trump didn't give his attorneys the surveillance footage so the prosecution needed to?
 
  • Informative
Reactions: USincognito
Upvote 0

wing2000

E pluribus unum
Site Supporter
Aug 18, 2012
20,961
17,384
✟1,435,407.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes. It generally is. And post trial. The Brady doctrine allows that if information which was not presented to the defence which would have been advantageous to the defence, then a mistrial can be called. Or a conviction could be overturned.

This information has been presented. So it's not applicable. And the information is advantageous to the prosecution of the case. Not the defence.

You might note that Trumps defence hasn't raised this matter. It was the prosecutor who said 'Hang on, there's something we missed.' The defence is hardly likely to complain to the court that information detrimental to their client has not been presented. It would be like the defence complaining that the prosecution hadn't presented their client's fingerprints on the murder weapon.

...so referring to the Op's title, nobody "forced" the prosecution to inform the court. And as other have pointed out, the case is still in the window for disclosure.

Bravo, another untruthful headline from the "Western Journal"
 
Upvote 0

adrianmonk

Recursive Algorithm
Jan 14, 2008
602
702
Seattle, WA
✟226,814.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
I don't know what that evidence is without looking at it....nor do I see how this publication knows. I suspect they're repeating what his defense team is claiming

Bravo, another untruthful headline from the "Western Journal"

I haven't seen any statements from the Trump defense team on any news site claiming a Brady violation, but this mediabiasfactcheck.com report makes sense.
 
  • Like
Reactions: FreeinChrist
Upvote 0

Belk

Senior Member
Site Supporter
Dec 21, 2005
28,422
13,173
Seattle
✟913,940.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
...so referring to the Op's title, nobody "forced" the prosecution to inform the court. And as other have pointed out, the case is still in the window for disclosure.

Bravo, another untruthful headline from the "Western Journal"

This is my shocked face.

1691423841502.gif
 
Upvote 0

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
37,682
11,469
✟439,374.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
But Jack Smith didn't withhold evidence. When it was discovered, only a few months after the first evidence was provided, Jack Smith sent the evidence over. Hard to say if it is evidence that would clear the defendent

"Included in Production 3 is additional CCTV footage from The Mar-a-Lago Club that the Government obtained from the Trump Organization on May 9 and May 12, 2023..."​



From your link...

"The materials were originally obtained by the government in May, with the DOJ attesting in court on July 18 that all necessary files had been turned over, which it said in hindsight was "therefore incorrect."


So here's the problem...

Smith got the materials in May. Two months later he says to the court, "We've turned over all the evidence". This is a lie. He's lying to the judge. That's the problem. Whether or not it's a Brady violation only depends upon the nature of the evidence.

Maybe Trump didn't give his attorneys the surveillance footage so the prosecution needed to?

He's not obligated to....the prosecution is.
 
Upvote 0

FreeinChrist

CF Advisory team
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2003
145,260
17,462
USA
✟1,757,206.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
From your link...

"The materials were originally obtained by the government in May, with the DOJ attesting in court on July 18 that all necessary files had been turned over, which it said in hindsight was "therefore incorrect."


So here's the problem...

Smith got the materials in May. Two months later he says to the court, "We've turned over all the evidence". This is a lie. He's lying to the judge. That's the problem. Whether or not it's a Brady violation only depends upon the nature of the evidence.
They believed it was correct at the time and have now corrected their error after a few months. It does not fit a Brady violation.
It would be a Brady violation if they failed to correct the error by the time the trial occurs..
He's not obligated to....the prosecution is.
Trump was not obligated to give his own lawyers the survellance footage? Yeah, he can deceive his own lawyers but that is unwise.

And the prosecution did sent it over to the defense once they saw it had not been processed and provided to them.
 
Upvote 0

essentialsaltes

Stranger in a Strange Land
Oct 17, 2011
33,460
36,750
Los Angeles Area
✟833,569.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Trump was not obligated to give his own lawyers the survellance footage? Yeah, he can deceive his own lawyers but that is unwise.
He's protecting Bigfoot, and I support that.
 
  • Useful
Reactions: KCfromNC
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
37,682
11,469
✟439,374.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
They believed it was correct at the time and have now corrected their error after a few months.

You can believe whatever you want about Smith and his abilities as a prosecutor. I personally find it difficult to believe that the Special Prosecutor brought in to represent the US against a former president in an unprecedented case that will likely have repercussions for both Trump, Biden, and all future Presidents merely pulled an "oopsie" and forgot to disclose evidence he had for months. I find it more likely that he realized that it would be obvious he had some other evidence he didn't disclose when he outlined his strategy for this trial and he decided he'd have to bite the bullet and disclose the evidence before trial in hopes of not getting a mistrial or worse.

To believe this was just an "oopsie" (which is possible, he's human, his team can make mistakes) doesn't bode well for the trial either. You definitely want the best you can find to prosecute this thing....not a guy making such obvious mistakes pre-trial. You want a strong case, not one where the process gets so botched it falls apart immediately upon appeal.




It does not fit a Brady violation.
It would be a Brady violation if they failed to correct the error by the time the trial occurs..

I gave you an example of a pretrial Brady violation. I don't know what more you want to show that pretrial Brady violations occur and can result in a dismissal or worse for the prosecution. In the case I gave you...the evidence was discovered a full 3 weeks prior to the case being dismissed and while that may not seem like a lot of time because the charges were 5 years old....the main reason for the delay was a backlog created by the coronavirus. The evidence? The alleged victim had made false allegations in the past. It's not something that proves the defendent is innocent, it's just something potentially helpful to the defense.

Is it the sort of evidence that the defense couldn't process or prepare for in 3 weeks? No. It's pretty simple to look at the past case of false allegations and prepare a line of questions that suggests these current allegations are false as well....especially since they came during that whole "MeToo believe women because false allegations are too rare to worry about" years.

Now, whether or not this evidence is the sort of evidence that would be in favor of the defense's innocence doesn't seem to be determined by either article (yours or the OP's) but the fact remains that the prosecution withheld evidence because they previously stated they had turned over all available evidence. Had they not done that....they still would have been in the discovery phase. They had stated in court that all evidence had been turned over though, ending the discovery phase. They'll be rather lucky if it's something minor and the defense simply gets an extension because the special prosecutor is demonstrating how he puts the "special" in "special prosecutor".


Trump was not obligated to give his own lawyers the survellance footage? Yeah, he can deceive his own lawyers but that is unwise.

No...legally speaking he isn't obligated. The prosecution has to turn over evidence....all of it.


And the prosecution did sent it over to the defense once they saw it had not been processed and provided to them.

Right....how did they discover that? Someone noticed a lone DVD marked "evidence for Trump case" in the "discovery evidence" box in Smith's office that should have been mailed out?

Or is this going to be the very familiar "oops my secretary got it mixed up when she was sorting through all the evidence we were supposed to send to the defense" excuse that Biden likes to use to explain his piles of documents strewn about his residence and university offices?
 
Upvote 0

FreeinChrist

CF Advisory team
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2003
145,260
17,462
USA
✟1,757,206.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
You can believe whatever you want about Smith and his abilities as a prosecutor. I personally find it difficult to believe that the Special Prosecutor brought in to represent the US against a former president in an unprecedented case that will likely have repercussions for both Trump, Biden, and all future Presidents merely pulled an "oopsie" and forgot to disclose evidence he had for months. I find it more likely that he realized that it would be obvious he had some other evidence he didn't disclose when he outlined his strategy for this trial and he decided he'd have to bite the bullet and disclose the evidence before trial in hopes of not getting a mistrial or worse.

To believe this was just an "oopsie" (which is possible, he's human, his team can make mistakes) doesn't bode well for the trial either. You definitely want the best you can find to prosecute this thing....not a guy making such obvious mistakes pre-trial. You want a strong case, not one where the process gets so botched it falls apart immediately upon appeal.


So that is just your opinion without proof that he lied in the letter that came with the evidence..
That and a few dollars will buy you a cup of coffee.
No...legally speaking he isn't obligated. The prosecution has to turn over evidence....all of it.


Correct. But Trump failing to give his own lawyers the footage would be ignorant.
Right....how did they discover that? Someone noticed a lone DVD marked "evidence for Trump case" in the "discovery evidence" box in Smith's office that should have been mailed out?

Or is this going to be the very familiar "oops my secretary got it mixed up when she was sorting through all the evidence we were supposed to send to the defense" excuse that Biden likes to use to explain his piles of documents strewn about his residence and university offices?
How did they discover it? You tell me. You are the one assuming it is something nefarious as opposed to the error Jack Smith said it was. Fact is they did find it and once found, promptly provided it to the court and the defense per their statement.
 
Upvote 0

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
37,682
11,469
✟439,374.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
So that is just your opinion without proof that he lied in the letter that came with the evidence..
That and a few dollars will buy you a cup of coffee.

Right....just like it's your opinion that this expert lawyer who was hand picked to prosecute an extremely sensitive and complicated case just pulled the kind of 1st year lawyer mistake that's more typical of a DUI case against a 21 year old than a 1st of it's kind case against a former president.

I don't think that would even get you a cup of coffee....you'd need to find an old timey telephone booth, and ask the operator if you can make a collect call from "wildlyridiculousexcuse".


Correct. But Trump failing to give his own lawyers the footage would be ignorant.

I don't know why you or anyone else keep bringing this up. Are you aware how evidence is collected? Is this some rare instance where the FBI took the recording of the security cameras and then sent back a copy to Trump later? I would imagine they didn't just get a thumb drive curated by some Mar-a-Lago security of the dates in question....they walked out with the hard drive and all recordings going back to the time Trump was elected or as far back as any recordings are kept (if they don't keep a backlog of their security footage for years, and they probably don't). I have no idea why you or anyone else thinks this is a point to make....let alone a relevant one (which it isn't).


How did they discover it? You tell me. You are the one assuming it is something nefarious as opposed to the error Jack Smith said it was. Fact is they did find it and once found, promptly provided it to the court and the defense per their statement.

It doesn't even matter if it was an error. Read the whole article I linked. A new prosecutor was assigned to the case (probably because of the backlog) and when the defense asked if he had any prior evidence of the victim making false allegations.....he promptly sent her the evidence (which he assumed that the previous prosecutor had already given the defense). There's no explanation for why the previous prosecutor failed to turn it over....perhaps he's an idiot too that forgot what every lawyer learns on day 1 of "courtroom procedures" in law school. Perhaps he had only read the cliff's notes and they don't include the topic of "discovery".

Why speculate if it doesn't actually matter? It's not as if forgetting to turn over crucial evidence for the defense and deliberately withholding crucial evidence for the defense makes any sort of difference between a Brady violation and something that isn't a Brady violation. All that really matters now is whether or not the evidence is helpful to the defense in a significant way.
 
Upvote 0

FreeinChrist

CF Advisory team
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2003
145,260
17,462
USA
✟1,757,206.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Right....just like it's your opinion that this expert lawyer who was hand picked to prosecute an extremely sensitive and complicated case just pulled the kind of 1st year lawyer mistake that's more typical of a DUI case against a 21 year old than a 1st of it's kind case against a former president.

I don't think that would even get you a cup of coffee....you'd need to find an old timey telephone booth, and ask the operator if you can make a collect call from "wildlyridiculousexcuse".
And you think the expert lawyer did every little thing himself? :doh:

Afterall, that expert lawyer didn't just have an investigation regarding the classified documents at Mar a lago to deal with but also the investigation of Trump's role regarding Jan. 6th. The second one is huge and requires a great deal of work.
I don't know why you or anyone else keep bringing this up. Are you aware how evidence is collected? Is this some rare instance where the FBI took the recording of the security cameras and then sent back a copy to Trump later? I would imagine they didn't just get a thumb drive curated by some Mar-a-Lago security of the dates in question....they walked out with the hard drive and all recordings going back to the time Trump was elected or as far back as any recordings are kept (if they don't keep a backlog of their security footage for years, and they probably don't). I have no idea why you or anyone else thinks this is a point to make....let alone a relevant one (which it isn't).
You keep responding. How much time was there between when the footage took place and when the FBI came in a took evidence?
Did Trump have lawyers in that time? Didn't one of Trump's lawyers end up telling a falsehood to the FBI regarding the documents and probably because she did not realize that Trump lied to her?
It doesn't even matter if it was an error. Read the whole article I linked. A new prosecutor was assigned to the case (probably because of the backlog) and when the defense asked if he had any prior evidence of the victim making false allegations.....he promptly sent her the evidence (which he assumed that the previous prosecutor had already given the defense). There's no explanation for why the previous prosecutor failed to turn it over....perhaps he's an idiot too that forgot what every lawyer learns on day 1 of "courtroom procedures" in law school. Perhaps he had only read the cliff's notes and they don't include the topic of "discovery".

Why speculate if it doesn't actually matter? It's not as if forgetting to turn over crucial evidence for the defense and deliberately withholding crucial evidence for the defense makes any sort of difference between a Brady violation and something that isn't a Brady violation. All that really matters now is whether or not the evidence is helpful to the defense in a significant way.
As the OP is assigning a nefarious motive as a possible reason for the error or because of incompetency was the reason, that brings up speculation. Jack Smith said what happened in the letter to the court, and did provide the evidence to the defense. It is unprecedented for a single Special Counsel to handle two investigations into a president or former president.

I don't think anything negative will come out of this for Jack Smith.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

hislegacy

Memories pre 2021
Site Supporter
Nov 15, 2006
44,014
14,057
Broken Arrow, OK
✟707,751.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
But Jack Smith didn't withhold evidence. When it was discovered, only a few months after the first evidence was provided, Jack Smith sent the evidence over. Hard to say if it is evidence that would clear the defendent
QFT

Is it incompetence or negligence on Smith's team? It certainly wasn't intentional -
 
Upvote 0

wing2000

E pluribus unum
Site Supporter
Aug 18, 2012
20,961
17,384
✟1,435,407.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
QFT

Is it incompetence or negligence on Smith's team? It certainly wasn't intentional -

Likely a legal clerk or junior attorney made a mistake. It happens and is understandable give the vast quantities of evidence already provided...a process that is ongoing from what I understand.
 
Upvote 0

hislegacy

Memories pre 2021
Site Supporter
Nov 15, 2006
44,014
14,057
Broken Arrow, OK
✟707,751.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Likely a legal clerk or junior attorney made a mistake. It happens and is understandable give the vast quantities of evidence already provided...a process that is ongoing from what I understand.
That would be incompetent
 
Upvote 0

FreeinChrist

CF Advisory team
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2003
145,260
17,462
USA
✟1,757,206.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
QFT

Is it incompetence or negligence on Smith's team? It certainly wasn't intentional -
It was an error. The lawyers can be very conpetitive but still make misstakes.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums