Israel vs Palestine

Elisha1961

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I know this is a hot topic and I may regret starting this, but:

Why does the Reformed Church call Israel Palestine? I was in the Christian Reformed Church I grew up in and they kept saying Palestine instead of Israel in their children's talk. They were definitely refering to the land of Israel in the Bible story and of the Land of Israel today.

My stand is Israel is Israel. God Called it that and God gave them the land. I am just trying to understand their perspective on it. I am just not understanding the reason for the Reformed churches stance on this not start a holy war.
 

kenrapoza

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At least this isn't GT!! :D

Israel was the nation God raised up in history as a step in the fulfillment of a promised Messiah. Palestine is the geographical area west of the Jordan river where the Israelites lived predominantly. The modern country of "Israel" is a secular geopolitical nation, not an extension of God's covenant people in the Old Testament.
 
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Calvinist Dark Lord

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I know this is a hot topic and I may regret starting this, but:

Why does the Reformed Church call Israel Palestine? I was in the Christian Reformed Church I grew up in and they kept saying Palestine instead of Israel in their children's talk. They were definitely refering to the land of Israel in the Bible story and of the Land of Israel today.

My stand is Israel is Israel. God Called it that and God gave them the land. I am just trying to understand their perspective on it. I am just not understanding the reason for the Reformed churches stance on this not start a holy war.
Ancient Israel was a nation and ethnic grouping of people who were finally dispersed in AD 70.

Modern Israel is a nation that was formed out of a religious group (with some ethnical ties) called Jews. The Present religion of Judiasm has little to nothing in common with that of the Ancient Jews.

Biblical Israel is defined as the church, consisting of Christ-believing Jews, and Christ-believing non-Jews.
 
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heymikey80

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Why does the Reformed Church call Israel Palestine? I was in the Christian Reformed Church I grew up in and they kept saying Palestine instead of Israel in their children's talk. They were definitely refering to the land of Israel in the Bible story and of the Land of Israel today.
Maybe to distinguish how the term "Israel" is used by Paul. I don't know many who consider themselves staunchly CRC.
My stand is Israel is Israel.
So would you object to someone asserting, "Not all Israel is Israel"? What would such a statement mean to you, if someone authoritative said so?
God Called it that and God gave them the land. I am just trying to understand their perspective on it. I am just not understanding the reason for the Reformed churches stance on this not start a holy war.
I'm obviously not gonna win friends with this point .. but God Himself says He called a harlot as His child, and the harlot remained a harlot. God often reverts to calling His runaway nation "Jacob" to signify the departure; or "Lo ammi", "Not mine."

These are things the Scripture actually says about the human nation of Israel. It's quite clear that Israel is not the Israel God intended, and to say it is, defies God's definition of His own people.

Does that mean God's abandoned His ethnoi, His people? Not at all. Evangelizing the world is His strategy for provoking Israel into repentance, or so Paul thought (Rom 11).

The fact is that Paul is fluid in his use of the term "Israel", normally using the term commonly to refer to the nation in Judea. But Paul has no trouble swapping in the term "Israel" or using nation terms to refer theologically to everyone God has chosen, including the church (Gal 6 eoc, Ep 2:14ff), nor does he have a problem using "circumcision" for the uncircumcised or "Jew" for one changed by the Spirit of God (Rom 2).
 
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I know this is a hot topic and I may regret starting this, but:

Why does the Reformed Church call Israel Palestine? I was in the Christian Reformed Church I grew up in and they kept saying Palestine instead of Israel in their children's talk. They were definitely referring to the land of Israel in the Bible story and of the Land of Israel today.

My stand is Israel is Israel. God Called it that and God gave them the land. I am just trying to understand their perspective on it. I am just not understanding the reason for the Reformed churches stance on this not start a holy war.
Israel was and still is a country in the Middle East. It is geographically described in the Bible. God gave this land to the Jewish people. Some people who choose to distort end-times theology wish to dispute that, for reasons I cannot fathom. I am premillennial, theologically reformed and decidedly Calvinistic. I am also unashamed to be pro-Israel.
 
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Anoetos

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Israel was and still is a country in the Middle East. It is geographically described in the Bible. God gave this land to the Jewish people. Some people who choose to distort end-times theology wish to dispute that, for reasons I cannot fathom. I am premillennial, theologically reformed and decidedly Calvinistic. I am also unashamed to be pro-Israel.

It may be helpful to recall that Israel was NOT originally a piece of geography but the name of a person and, by extension, of all those descended from him.

In its most basic sense it is a personal name, now collective, but originally that of Jacob.

Israel is God's chosen people. Israel is, for all intents and purposes, the Church, made up of all believers in Christ, regardless of ethnic derivation.

I am also pro-Israel, but I have no illusions about any necessary continuity between the current state bearing that name and the Elect.
 
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heymikey80

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I appreciate the unity here. I think there may be more continuity than people realize within Calvinism (checking Calvin on Romans 11:25-eoc), but the continuity is not extended to "whatever the nation is, I like." I think God has an particular intent for the Jewish people, based on the forefathers, but when it comes to salvation God's subjected the entire world to the "Great Levelling" described in Rom 11:25-eoc as well.
 
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It may be helpful to recall that Israel was NOT originally a piece of geography but the name of a person and, by extension, of all those descended from him.

In its most basic sense it is a personal name, now collective, but originally that of Jacob.

The Holy Spirit inspired the writers of the Old Testament to refer to Israel as a nation, and Judah as a nation, not the original ancestors of their people.

Israel is God's chosen people. Israel is, for all intents and purposes, the Church, made up of all believers in Christ, regardless of ethnic derivation.

Not true. Redemption was and is still for the Jews. Gentiles are grafted in by God's grace, but we shouldn't take this grafting as some indication of superiority.

I am also pro-Israel, but I have no illusions about any necessary continuity between the current state bearing that name and the Elect.

Jer 32:36 "Now therefore thus says the LORD God of Israel concerning this city of which you say, 'It is given into the hand of the king of Babylon by sword, by famine and by pestilence.'
Jer 32:37 "Behold, I will gather them out of all the lands to which I have driven them in My anger, in My wrath and in great indignation; and I will bring them back to this place and make them dwell in safety.
(NASB)

Eze 34:13 "I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries and bring them to their own land; and I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, by the streams, and in all the inhabited places of the land. (NASB)

God's covenant with Israel is binding, and has no expiration date.
 
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The Holy Spirit inspired the writers of the Old Testament to refer to Israel as a nation, and Judah as a nation, not the original ancestors of their people.



Not true. Redemption was and is still for the Jews. Gentiles are grafted in by God's grace, but we shouldn't take this grafting as some indication of superiority.



Jer 32:36 "Now therefore thus says the LORD God of Israel concerning this city of which you say, 'It is given into the hand of the king of Babylon by sword, by famine and by pestilence.'
Jer 32:37 "Behold, I will gather them out of all the lands to which I have driven them in My anger, in My wrath and in great indignation; and I will bring them back to this place and make them dwell in safety.
(NASB)

Eze 34:13 "I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries and bring them to their own land; and I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, by the streams, and in all the inhabited places of the land. (NASB)

God's covenant with Israel is binding, and has no expiration date.

I agree with Faithman's stance on this!
 
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Anoetos

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The Holy Spirit inspired the writers of the Old Testament to refer to Israel as a nation, and Judah as a nation, not the original ancestors of their people.

I am, of course, aware that the Old Testament understands Israel to be a political entity. The New Testament however concentrates on the identity of Israel subsisting primarily in the Abrahamic covenant and therefore inclusive of believing Gentiles in the Christian covenant, that being the conclusion of the former.

Not true. Redemption was and is still for the Jews. Gentiles are grafted in by God's grace, but we shouldn't take this grafting as some indication of superiority.

You seem to be misunderstanding me. I am neither suggesting that "redemption is not for the Jews" or that our inclusion in Israel is grounds for superiority.

Rather, I am saying that Israel subsists in Christ; He is the Elect of God par excellence and that there is no salvation for anyone, Jew or Gentile, without Him.

For this reason, any idea of a national Israel as a separate ethnic identity is effectively and implicitly abrogated by the New Covenant in the blood of Jesus, since that covenant supercedes and subsumes any prior covenant, including those with Abraham and Jacob.

Covenants are built upon one another and do not stand by themselves, each one rests upon and involves those made before it. No covenant with Moses without a covenant with Jacob, no covenant with Jacob without a covenant with Abraham, no covenant with Abraham without a covenant with Noah.

And beyond these is the covenant of all covenants the covenant in the blood of Jesus which completes and fulfills every covenant made by God with any man before him.

But again, I never said that the Jews were not part of the plan or that gentiles were in any way superior. Quite the opposite in fact, we ingrafted gentiles rest upon nothing but the grace of God for our standing, all unmerited, without works, solely by grace.


Jer 32:36 "Now therefore thus says the LORD God of Israel concerning this city of which you say, 'It is given into the hand of the king of Babylon by sword, by famine and by pestilence.'
Jer 32:37 "Behold, I will gather them out of all the lands to which I have driven them in My anger, in My wrath and in great indignation; and I will bring them back to this place and make them dwell in safety.
(NASB)

Eze 34:13 "I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries and bring them to their own land; and I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, by the streams, and in all the inhabited places of the land. (NASB)

God's covenant with Israel is binding, and has no expiration date.

I totally agree, and now, because of Christ, it includes believing gentiles and this very inclusion underscores and reiterates the eternal nature of the covenant.

It's all very well and good to say that God is not done with the Jews, but we must also understand that they will not be saved apart from faith in the finished work of their Messiah, and that this means, necessarily, their inclusion in the church, which is, after all, Israel come of age.
 
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Elisha1961

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Please no arguing...I just wanted to hear what their theory was...it is not pertinent to salvation...no ones mind will be changed just senseless arguing. Like I said not looking for debate just looked for an explanation whether I agreed with it or not.

Thanks for your responses.
 
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Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
Rom 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. (KJV)

In Romans Chapters 9-11, Paul answers the Jewish objector who asks: does the gospel, by promising salvation to Gentiles as well as Jews, mean that God has broken His promises to His earthly people, the Jews? Paul's answer covers Israel's Past (chap. 9), Present (chap. 10), and Future (chap. 11). To complete the thoughts begun above by Paul, read Romans 9-11 keeping the Jewish people (Israel) in mind. Paul would have given up his own salvation for the Israelites (Romans 9:3).

 
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