Israel and Judah

[keras]

ISRAEL AND JUDAH – not rejoined as yet.
The Bible has over 160 instances in the same verse, where Israel and Judah are mentioned as different, separate entities. It’s clear that they are not to be rejoined until after the Middle East is cleared and His people are regathered, judged and settled together in all of the Holy Land, Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Ezekiel 20:32-38

Mainstream Church teaching, especially Catholic, says that the Jews now in the Land are all Israel. Some teach Replacement theology, where their Church is now the new Israel.
Have they rejoined already? Josephus, the Jewish historian, circa 100AD, wrote that the 10 lost tribes were a great multitude, then living beyond the Euphrates River.
In the Talmud, Rabbi’s Akiva and Eliezer circa 200AD, discuss the question of when the 10 lost tribes would return. So, only Judah was present at that time.
At the establishment of the State of Israel, in 1948, the name was to have been Judah, but David Ben Gurion changed to Israel at the last minute. A serious misnomer.

So, we await the fulfilment of these prophecies;
Ezekiel 37:21-22 I am going to take the Israelites [the 2 tribes of Judah and the 10 tribes of Israel.] from their places of exile among the nations. I shall assemble them from every quarter and restore them to their own soil. I shall make them a single nation in the Land and one King will be over them all. No longer will they be two nations or divided into two Kingdoms.

Jeremiah 50:4-5 In those days and at that time [ after the land has been cleansed] The people of Israel and the people of Judah will come together and in tears go in search of their God. They will ask the way to Zion, turning towards her and saying; Come, let us join ourselves to the Lord in everlasting covenant.

Hosea 1:11 The people of Judah and Israel will be reunited and will choose for themselves one leader. [This must be before the Return of Jesus]

Micah 7:8-10 My enemies, do not exult over me [ Israel] Though I have fallen, I will rise again. Though I sit in darkness, the Lord will be my light. Because I have sinned against the Lord I must bear His anger until He pleads my case, gives judgement and establishes my rights. Then my enemies will see it and be shamed – those who said “where is your God “. I will see their downfall, they will be trampled like mud on the streets.

Micah 7:11-12 The day for rebuilding and extending your boundaries will come. A day when Your people will return to the Land, from every sea and every mountain.
Isaiah 66:18b-21, Psalms 107, Revelation 7:9-13

Zechariah 1:18-21 The four horns [ nations, peoples.] that scattered Judah and Israel.
Assyria, Babylon, Rome and now Islam. The four smiths [destroyers] have come to overthrow them.

Hosea 2:23 [New] Israel will be My new sowing in the Land, I will love them and say to them: “You are My people” and they will say “You are our God”. Romans 9:24-26

 

[Lost4words]

I guess the bracketed words are yours?

 

[MForbes]

At the establishment of the State of Israel, in 1948, the name was to have been Judah, but David Ben Gurion changed to Israel at the last minute. A serious misnomer.

Ben-Gurion had a hand in it, but it wasn't entirely his decision. Here's a good explanation of why it is called "Isreal" now (pg 5-8):

"This is what Sharef told the journalist Moshe Brilliant, who published his report in what was still called, even in 1949, the Palestine Post (later the Jerusalem Post): Most people had thought that the state would be called Judea (Y’hudah in Hebrew). But Judea is the historical name of the area around Jerusalem, which at that time seemed the area least likely to become part of the state. Also, it applied only to a very small territory. So Judea was ruled out."

https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/m..._called_israel_and_not_judea_mosaicmosaic.pdf

What's interesting to me is that the ancient united kingdom of Israel did not exist for very long. The divided kingdoms (Israel and Judah) lasted far longer. Israel and Judah also really didn't get along very well.

It's striking that they named the modern state "Israel" after a (mostly) polytheistic ancient nation. The ancient Israelites were also not "Jews". The term "Jew" (Yehudi) referred to an inhabitant of Judea (Y’hudah). The people of ancient Judah referred to themselves as "Yehudim", not Israelites. Israel itself was wiped off the map by the Assyrians and ceased to exist as a country. Judea hung around - even after being conquered by the Babylonians - until it was merged with Galilee and renamed "Syria Palestina" by the Romans after the second Jewish revolt.

 

[keras]

I guess the bracketed words are yours?

Yes; for clarification and explanation. Any objections?

Ben-Gurion had a hand in it, but it wasn't entirely his decision. Here's a good explanation of why it is called "Isreal" now

Please do not mis-spell Israel.
My understanding is that it was America who advised ben Gurion to call the new nation Israel.

My point in this thread is to prove that the two Houses; Israel and Judah, remain today as separate entities. The rejoining of a Messianic Jewish remnant with the faithful Christian peoples, as prophesied by Ezekiel 20:32-38 & 37:15-28, is still in the future.
It will happen after the Lord has cleared and cleansed all of the Holy Land, in the forthcoming Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath; the Sixth Seal world changer.
We should know about this event and be prepared for it, then to migrate to our heritage; Isaiah 11:11-12, and be the people God always wanted there.

 

[JulieB67]

I agree that they have not rejoined as of yet. Although that doesn't stop people from trying to lump all the tribes into one-Judah.

What really gets me sometimes too is if you were to ask many Christians on the street today, was Abraham Jewish?- they would say yes. Even though Judah had not been born yet. Many are so unlearned (I was years ago as well) when it comes to the 12 tribes, the split, the prophecy about them rejoining, etc.

 

[Lost4words]

Yes; for clarification and explanation. Any objections?

Please do not mis-spell Israel.
My understanding is that it was America who advised ben Gurion to call the new nation Israel.

My point in this thread is to prove that the two Houses; Israel and Judah, remain today as separate entities. The rejoining of a Messianic Jewish remnant with the faithful Christian peoples, as prophesied by Ezekiel 20:32-38 & 37:15-28, is still in the future.
It will happen after the Lord has cleared and cleansed all of the Holy Land, in the forthcoming Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath; the Sixth Seal world changer.
We should know about this event and be prepared for it, then to migrate to our heritage; Isaiah 11:11-12, and be the people God always wanted there.

Your interpretation then...that figures.

 

[MForbes]

Please do not mis-spell Israel.

Why don't you look at the other spellings of Israel in my post and realize that it was a mistake. I'm not ignorant. Maybe you should spell "misspell" correctly. It's not hyphenated.

My understanding is that it was America who advised ben Gurion to call the new nation Israel.

And what is the source of your understanding?

 

[keras]

Why don't you look at the other spellings of Israel in my post and realize that it was a mistake. I'm not ignorant. Maybe you should spell "misspell" correctly. It's not hyphenated.

My apologies and I stand corrected.
However, there are far too many people who come to the forums, and try to foist their beliefs onto others here, as though we are just ignorant fools and unworthy of careful and accurate dissertation.

And what is the source of your understanding?

I did read it somewhere, years ago, but my belief now is that whoever suggested it: it was a Satanic deception, allowed by God, in order to keep His true Israelite peoples under wraps until the end times events commence.
Many Prophesies tell of the virtual demise of Jewish Israel and of the restoration of the true Israelite peoples, His Overcomers: from every tribe, race, nation and language. The Christian peoples, John sees them in the Holy Land in Revelation 7:9

 

[Lost4words]

However, there are far too many people who come to the forums, and try to foist their beliefs onto others here, as though we are just ignorant fools and unworthy of careful and accurate dissertation.

Isnt that a bit rich coming from you?

 

[keras]

Isnt that a bit rich coming from you?

I promote the Prophetic Word. as written in the Bible. Shown by the many scriptures I use.
Obviously what I post conflicts with your beliefs, but instead of countering what I present, you resort to pithy and crass comments.

It must be clear to you and to most people, that the world faces dramatic changes soon. Just population pressure dictates this.
Have you any idea as to what God has planned for our future? If not, why not?
It is all set out in our Bibles, in great detail, but those who choose to believe false theories and doctrines, have their understanding blocked. Isaiah 29:9-12

 

[Lost4words]

I promote the Prophetic Word. as written in the Bible. Shown by the many scriptures I use.
Obviously what I post conflicts with your beliefs, but instead of countering what I present, you resort to pithy and crass comments.

It must be clear to you and to most people, that the world faces dramatic changes soon. Just population pressure dictates this.
Have you any idea as to what God has planned for our future? If not, why not?
It is all set out in our Bibles, in great detail, but those who choose to believe false theories and doctrines, have their understanding blocked. Isaiah 29:9-12

Why do you think only 'your' interpretation of scripture is the correct one?

However, there are far too many people who come to the forums, and try to foist their beliefs onto others here, as though we are just ignorant fools and unworthy of careful and accurate dissertation.

You 'foist' your beliefs on others constantly and shoot down anyone who disagrees with you!

 

[MForbes]

I did read it somewhere, years ago,.....

Years ago, folks couldn't look up the truth in what they may have been taught, or told. With information readily available the way it is now, you should be able to dig in to what you say you read years ago. Please look it up and get back with us.

One of the biggest problems we have nowadays is folks just don't want to take a good look at some of the falsehoods they were taught...........for fear of finding out they were false, and also not wanting to know the truth because the lies justify their beliefs.

 

[keras]

Why do you think only 'your' interpretation of scripture is the correct one?



You 'foist' your beliefs on others constantly and shoot down anyone who disagrees with you!

You know, L4W, that I sympathise with you, because with the wrong beliefs that you have, the Lord has made you incapable of understanding the truths of the Prophetic Word. Isaiah 42:18-20 says how the Lords servants see and hear much, but understand little.

I shoot down false teachings with plainly stated scripture and you have no counter to it. All you can do is to moan about it!

 

[keras]

Years ago, folks couldn't look up the truth in what they may have been taught, or told. With information readily available the way it is now, you should be able to dig in to what you say you read years ago. Please look it up and get back with us.

I am not going to bother. How and why the name of Israel was chosen for the Jewish State, is immaterial.
The fact is that it is a serious misnomer and it has caused much confusion, by having many believe they are the only Israel and are still Gods chosen people.
We are told who are the people of God; Revelation 5:9-10 and in the letters to the seven Churches; Rev 2 to 3, we see there are Overcomers in all of them; literally Israelite people- overcomers, as Jacob was.

One of the biggest problems we have nowadays is folks just don't want to take a good look at some of the falsehoods they were taught...........for fear of finding out they were false, and also not wanting to know the truth because the lies justify their beliefs.

Exactly! Lies like the rapture to heaven and accompanying Jesus at His Return, Jewish redemption and restoration, OSAS, the timing of the new Covenant, preterism, AMillennium, and the general rejection of the Prophetic Word for the end times.

 

[Lost4words]

You know, L4W, that I sympathise with you, because with the wrong beliefs that you have, the Lord has made you incapable of understanding the truths of the Prophetic Word. Isaiah 42:18-20 says how the Lords servants see and hear much, but understand little.

I shoot down false teachings with plainly stated scripture and you have no counter to it. All you can do is to moan about it!

How are my beliefs wrong yet yours are right?

 

[MForbes]

Lies like the rapture to heaven and accompanying Jesus at His Return, Jewish redemption and restoration, OSAS, the timing of the new Covenant, preterism, AMillennium, and the general rejection of the Prophetic Word for the end times.

That’s not what I meant. But OK. I jumped off the End Times Prophecy Bandwagon many years ago. It’s all just a bunch of jibber jabber in my book.

 

[Lost4words]

End times experts are like grains of sand on the beach!!!

And each saying only they have the truth!

 

[keras]

How are my beliefs wrong yet yours are right?

Well TBH, I don't know what you believe, as you have never stated them. Only that you reject my beliefs.
I support my beliefs with scripture. Where is your proof of a rapture to heaven?

And each saying only they have the truth!

Daniel 12:10b......only a few wise leaders will understand.

 

[keras]

The Israel of God in the New Testament:
God’s work with and the development of His people, all faithful Israelites in the Old Testament is continued in the New Testament. Those who presumed that ancestry gave them privileges were chastened. John the Baptist’s strong language indicates how seriously God viewed their pride and arrogance.

John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, `We have Abraham as our father.' For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. The axe is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. Luke 3:7-9

Jesus gives a similar warning to those who were trying to trap him: Abraham is our father, they answered. “If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do the things Abraham did”. John 8:39 Jesus goes even further in Matthew 8 when he praises the faith of a Gentile Roman Centurion: I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. Matthew 8:10

Jesus then goes on to make a prediction: I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But those who were born to the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 8:11-12
Here Jesus is warning his Jewish hearers that unless they recognize him as their Messiah they will be excluded from the Kingdom.

This is how we are to understand Paul when he specifically uses the expression: Israel of God in Galatians 6:16. Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God. Galatians 6:16 For those who hold to a rapture to heaven, they have to think Paul is referring to Jews, or at least Christian Jews, but this flies in the face of everything he has said in the first five chapters of this letter.

In Galatians 3:23-29, Paul says we are saved by God’s grace and justified by faith alone in Jesus Christ. Paul is emphatic - people are not saved by ethnicity , by circumcision, by offering animal sacrifices or by keeping the Law of Moses.

In Galatians 4:21-31, those who follow Jesus, are likened to the free children of Sarah. Those seeking to be justified by the Law have been alienated from Jesus and are likened to the children of Hagar. Quoting Genesis 21, they will, he warns: never share in the inheritance…. Paul speaks of our freedom in Christ and our new life in the Holy Spirit. He contrasts living by the Spirit with living by our sinful nature.



See what Paul is saying? We have a choice – grace or law, faith or works? When Paul writes: Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, [and or even] to the Israel of God, he is obviously referring to all the followers of Jesus who have rejected the legalists who wanted to impose circumcision and the keeping of the Torah Law.

John Stott provides one of the best explanations of this verse: ‘All who walk by this rule’ and ‘the Israel of God’ are not two groups, but one. The connecting particle: ‘kai’ should be translated ‘even’, not ‘and’, or be omitted, as in the RSV. The Christian church has a direct continuity with God’s people in the Old Testament. Those who are Christians today are the true circumcision - Phil. 3:3, ‘Abraham’s offspring’ Galatians 3:29 and ‘the Israel of God’.

And don’t worry about the phrase ‘walk by this rule’ either. The Greek word ‘rule’ is kanon and simply describes a carpenter’s or surveyor’s plumb line. John Stott says, This is the ‘canon’ of Scripture, the doctrine of the apostles, and especially in the context of Galatians 6 the cross of Christ and the new creation. Such is the rule by which the church must walk and continuously judge and reform itself.

In the closing sentences of this letter, Paul is quoting an ancient prayer he would have prayed all his life on the Sabbath. Known as the additional 19th benediction to the 18 benedictions, and based on the Aaronic blessing of Numbers 6:24-26, God is asked in the final prayer for ‘Peace… and mercy on us and all Israel: your people.’ Now Paul prays this blessing on the Jewish and Gentile Christian believers in Jesus for they are the ‘Israelites of God’.

 

[Lost4words]

Well TBH, I don't know what you believe, as you have never stated them. Only that you reject my beliefs.
I support my beliefs with scripture. Where is your proof of a rapture to heaven?

Daniel 12:10b......only a few wise leaders will understand.

Lol, you see yourself as wise!

'beware of false prophets'...

You have 'your' interpretation of God's word. Doesnt mean you are correct. The 'wise' in Jesus's time thought they knew it all too!

God bless you my friend (no hard feelings at all).