Islam

[smaneck]

According to the books, Muhammad had personally ordered the deaths of people for various offenses such as being a spy, opposing him with poetry, interrupting his prayer, being affiliated with his opposition, being the sibling of someone who has opposed him, slander, adultery, ...and also claiming to be a prophet. All said an done, there were around 50 instances on record.

According to what books? Yes, Muhammad did order some executions unlike Jesus. The difference is that Muhammad was a governor and Jesus was not. Yes, treason was a capital offense as it is virtually everywhere. As for adultery, the Qur'an makes it virtually an unprovable crime requiring four eyewitnesses to the act of penetration. How likely is that? The penalty for slander is eighty lashes, not death, but that is what you'll get if you accuse a woman of adultery and can't produce four eyewitnesses. I don't know where he ever executed anyone for interrupting his prayer or being a sibling of an opponent. However, since there are volumes and volumes of ahadith or oral traditions compiled centuries after the Prophet's passing you probably could find something along those lines. Doesn't mean the Muhammad actually did those things.

 

[smaneck]

I'm convinced that whatever a person believes it therefore is their religion. If Democrats believe guns should be more restricted then that is their religious beliefs. If Iowa Republicans oppose a casino being built in Kenosha, Wisconsin then that is their religious belief.

I think you are quite wrong here, but it is probably this kind of thinking which has led some Christians to say that atheism is a religion. That is wrong believes and faith are two very different things. Beliefs are propositional, faith is relational.

For me... Jesus established Himself as the truth. Not a religion. The word "religion" was created to be applied to Obama's Protestantism the same way the word "black" was created to be applied to Obama's "race." But Obama is in truth not black and in truth whatever he believes therefore is his religion.

And Obama was introduced into this discussion, why?

St. Augustine believed Christianity was a religion, btw. In fact the thought it was the only religion. Religion comes from the term religio which means to bind. It is what binds us to God and to one another in community.

Now, as for "science" and "knowledge," when I spoke of Oriental Christianity I was not really speaking about the traditions of Greek thought.

I know that wasn't what you were thinking of, but that is what they mostly drew from, not the things you had in mind.

That was there too, but the Syriac texts and men (Oriental Orthodox) Islamic scholars at times drew from were systems of thought composed by non-Europeans. They also drew from Coptic learned men as well. And of course, Hindus from India.

It may well be--some archeological evidence (not a lot though)--suggests that one of the earliest if not earliest advanced civilizations was in black West Africa

Huh? The oldest civilization to emerge in West Africa was after 1000 BC on the Niger River.

 

[mindlight]

Muslim rule was certainly no more scary that Christian rulers were from Constantine onward.

Christendom is the basis of modern Western freedoms - it led to the abolition of slavery, ideas of equality of worth between the sexes etc that are missing in the Islamic world.

Islam rose by conquest and maintains its grip by fear. It has only ever been displaced by military force.

No intimacy? Have you never heard of Sufism?

Yes study the texts it is actually quite impersonal a view of love. They do not have the same basis of intimate relationship that the Trinitarian example provides.

 

[Catherineanne]

I think some of the issues raised here comparing the teachings of Jesus with some of the revelations in Qur'an can be best understood if you accept the teachings of Jesus as for personal morality and the situation that His teachings addressed... A heavy occupation of Judea by Rome did not call for armed resistance but rather non-violent resistance... carrying a burden the extra mile...turning the cheek if slapped and so on...

The situation of Prophet Muhammad was different. He bore six or seven years of persecution and attempted assassination in Mecca... After the Hijra.. He and His followers found refuge in Medina and a "community" of the tribes there formed a Treaty to defend themselves from attack by the stronger pagan armies...The revelations of this period concerned a "state" and so dealt with issues of dealing with prisoners and defending the community. So it was a different environment and context than in the dispensation of Christ.

I disagree. Their situations were more similar than dissimilar. The difference is that the Lord rejected murder and violence, and Mohammed did not.

The simplest test of all is sin. The Koran itself attests that Christ was born of the Virgin Mary and lived without sin his whole life. No such claim is made for Mohammed, and his life certainly does not attest to great purity. Therefore, why would anyone choose to follow a sinner rather than a pure, sinless man?

 

[Niblo]

The simplest test of all is sin. The Koran itself attests that Christ was born of the Virgin Mary and lived without sin his whole life. No such claim is made for Mohammed, and his life certainly does not attest to great purity. Therefore, why would anyone choose to follow a sinner rather than a pure, sinless man?

Hello, Catherineanne.

I say that a prophet does not have to be impeccable in order to have a valid ministry, or to receive authentic revelation from his Lord. If one disagrees with me, then one must declare all prophets of the Tanakh bogus (since according to Christians, Yeshua was the only sinless man). This raises a problem for Christians, since if the Tanakh prophecies (so-called) concerning Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) are derived from bogus prophets (and therefore bunkum), then what of the claim that he is the fulfilment of those prophecies?

Christians do not worship Yeshua because he was sinless; they worship him because they think he is divine.

Muslims accept that Yeshua was sinless by the grace of Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla). They don’t worship him at all, because no man is worthy of worship….not even a sinless man.

Muslims accept Muhammad (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) because they believe him to be a true prophet. I acknowledge that Christians disagree with us, and think us foolish - if not downright perverse - to which I can say only:

‘I do not worship what you worship, you do not worship what I worship, I will never worship what you worship, you will never worship what I worship: you have your religion and I have mine.’

(Al-Kafirun: 2-6).

Have a nice Bank Holiday....weather permitting!

 

[Catherineanne]

Christians do not worship Yeshua because he was sinless; they worship him because they think he is divine.

With respect, you are a Moslem, and therefore not qualified to tell me why Christians worship Jesus. Neither can you suggest that our having a Divine Lord means that we cannot accept human prophets. The prophets were indeed human; that does not disqualify their prophecies. But the Lord is not a prophet; he is far more than that.

We do indeed worship him because he was sinless, because this indicates that he was both human and divine. No human being alone can live his whole life without sin.

My point remains; given a choice between perfection and imperfection, purity and impurity, sinless or sinful, who would choose imperfection?

If Mohammed is a valid prophet, he is the only one who attempts to invalidate the prophecies of those who go before him, while at the same time attesting to their status. That is not the behaviour of any former prophet. John the Baptist does not disrespect Isaiah; Jeremiah does not disrespect Moses. It is only Mohammed who feels qualified to stand in judgement of those who go before him. How can he respect the Christ while at the same time saying his words are corrupted? How come Moslems think the Koran has been divinely protected, and yet for some reason God did not bother protecting the Bible in the same way? What kind of inept God is that?

I am afraid in this judging it is Mohammed himself who falls short; not the OT prophets, and not the Lord himself.

 

[KWCrazy]

That is simply false.

Qur’an 8:12 “I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.”
Qur’an 8:39 “So fight them until there is no more disbelief [non-Muslims] and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).” Qur’an 8:40 “If people are obstinate, and refuse to surrender, know Allah is your Supporter.”
Qur’an 8:59 “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them.”
Qur’an 5:51 “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends. They are but friends and protectors to each other”
Bukhari:V4B52N260 “The Prophet said, ‘If a Muslim discards his religion, kill him.’”
Ishaq:262 “Some Muslims remained friends with the Jews, so Allah sent down a Qur’an forbidding them to take Jews as friends. From their mouths hatred has already shown itself and what they conceal is worse.”
Qur’an 33:25 “Allah drove the disbelievers back...and helped the believers in battle.... He terrorized the People of the Book so that you killed some and made many captive.”
Qur’an 33:26 “Allah took down the People of the Scripture Book. He cast terror into their hearts. Some you slew, and some you made prisoners. And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, giving you a land which you had not traversed before.” [Version two:] “And He drove the People of the Scripture down from their homes and cast panic into their hearts. Some you killed, and you made some captive. And He caused you to inherit their farms, houses, wealth, and land you have not trodden.”

We can go on and on. The fact is the islamic terrorists are quoting from the Qur'an, not misquoting from it. Mohammed was a warlord who murdered his enemies, stole their property, raped and enslaved their women etc. That is an undisputable fact as recorded by history and his own words.

According to Scripture, Mohammed was a false prophet as the Lord foretold would come. We were told how to detect a false prophet. in 1 John 4.
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Mohammed failed the test because Mohammed denied that Christ was the son of God.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

According to what books? Yes, Muhammad did order some executions unlike Jesus. The difference is that Muhammad was a governor and Jesus was not. Yes, treason was a capital offense as it is virtually everywhere. As for adultery, the Qur'an makes it virtually an unprovable crime requiring four eyewitnesses to the act of penetration. How likely is that? The penalty for slander is eighty lashes, not death, but that is what you'll get if you accuse a woman of adultery and can't produce four eyewitnesses. I don't know where he ever executed anyone for interrupting his prayer or being a sibling of an opponent. However, since there are volumes and volumes of ahadith or oral traditions compiled centuries after the Prophet's passing you probably could find something along those lines. Doesn't mean the Muhammad actually did those things.

List of Killings ordered by Muhammad

 

[Niblo]

With respect, you are a Moslem, and therefore not qualified to tell me why Christians worship Jesus. Neither can you suggest that our having a Divine Lord means that we cannot accept human prophets. The prophets were indeed human; that does not disqualify their prophecies. But the Lord is not a prophet; he is far more than that.

We do indeed worship him because he was sinless, because this indicates that he was both human and divine. No human being alone can live his whole life without sin.

My point remains; given a choice between perfection and imperfection, purity and impurity, sinless or sinful, who would choose imperfection?

I was a committed Christian for over sixty years I know exactly why Christians worship Yeshua. I did so myself......with no reservation, and to the best of my ability.....until the day came when (after a long and painful period) I came to realise that I could no longer accept the notion of his divinity. And to say that 'no human being alone can live his whole life without sin.' is to deny the sustaining and protecting power of the Exalted...and, of course, a human being's willingness to submit to the Will of his Lord.

Finally....if Christians can 'accept human prophets'.....then so can the Muslims. And, of course, we do.

 

[Wryetui]

Hello, Catherineanne.

I say that a prophet does not have to be impeccable in order to have a valid ministry, or to receive authentic revelation from his Lord. If one disagrees with me, then one must declare all prophets of the Tanakh bogus (since according to Christians, Yeshua was the only sinless man). This raises a problem for Christians, since if the Tanakh prophecies (so-called) concerning Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) are derived from bogus prophets (and therefore bunkum), then what of the claim that he is the fulfilment of those prophecies?

Christians do not worship Yeshua because he was sinless; they worship him because they think he is divine.

Muslims accept that Yeshua was sinless by the grace of Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla). They don’t worship him at all, because no man is worthy of worship….not even a sinless man.

Muslims accept Muhammad (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) because they believe him to be a true prophet. I acknowledge that Christians disagree with us, and think us foolish - if not downright perverse - to which I can say only:

‘I do not worship what you worship, you do not worship what I worship, I will never worship what you worship, you will never worship what I worship: you have your religion and I have mine.’

(Al-Kafirun: 2-6).

Have a nice Bank Holiday....weather permitting!

Could you tell me why do you follow Islam when in the Bible is told specifically that false prophets like Muhammad will come and you shall not receive any other holy book even if an angel from Heaven came to deliver it to us?

 

[Niblo]

Could you tell me why do you follow Islam when in the Bible is told specifically that false prophets like Muhammad will come and you shall not receive any other holy book even if an angel from Heaven came to deliver it to us?

Because I accept Islam to be the religion for me.

 

[Catherineanne]

I was a committed Christian for over sixty years I know exactly why Christians worship Yeshua.

No. You know why you did - if indeed you really did. You don't speak for me.

I do not think anyone who truly knows the Lord can reject him in favour of Mohammed. That is inconceivable.

I did so myself......with no reservation, and to the best of my ability.....until the day came when (after a long and painful period) I came to realise that I could no longer accept the notion of his divinity. And to say that 'no human being alone can live his whole life without sin.' is to deny the sustaining and protecting power of the Exalted...and, of course, a human being's willingness to submit to the Will of his Lord.

Finally....if Christians can 'accept human prophets'.....then so can the Muslims. And, of course, we do.

Christ is not just a prophet; his own words attest to who he is.

If you cannot accept that then fine, but don't then attempt to tell those of us who can why we believe as we do. I believe in the Lord because a man without sin cannot lie about who he is. He has never abandoned me, never let me down, never failed to love and protect me my whole life. I am not about to abandon him in return.

Anyone with such a relationship with Christ could never reject him.

 

[Catherineanne]

Could you tell me why do you follow Islam when in the Bible is told specifically that false prophets like Muhammad will come and you shall not receive any other holy book even if an angel from Heaven came to deliver it to us?

That does seem to be a very specific warning. : )

 

[Niblo]

No. You know why you did - if indeed you really did. You don't speak for me.

I do not think anyone who truly knows the Lord can reject him in favour of Mohammed. That is inconceivable.



Christ is not just a prophet; his own words attest to who he is.

If you cannot accept that then fine, but don't then attempt to tell those of us who can why we believe as we do. I believe in the Lord because a man without sin cannot lie about who he is. He has never abandoned me, never let me down, never failed to love and protect me my whole life. I am not about to abandon him in return.

Anyone with such a relationship with Christ could never reject him.

This is where we must agree to differ, and to go our separate ways.

 

[Catherineanne]

This is where we must agree to differ, and to go our separate ways.

Peace be with you.

When you want to return, the Lord will be waiting.

 

[Niblo]

Peace be with you.

When you want to return, the Lord will be waiting.

Thank you.

I apologise for my lapse of manners: Peace be with you, also.

 

[Wryetui]

Because I accept Islam to be the religion for me.

Blind acceptation doesn't seem very logic...

 

[Niblo]

Blind acceptation doesn't seem very logic...

That is why I took it for granted that you thought very carefully about Christianity before becoming one.

You have a good day now.

 

[Wryetui]

I did have, that's why I could give my life for my Orthodox faith, and that's why I am asking you why you are muslim, since I have studied both religions and I see no comparison.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

There is not a single Muslim poster on this site that causes me worry or to fear for my life and freedom of religious choice. There are multiple Christians that scare me to death that post here and even some that would live to see me and all other Jews dead. I especially like the Christians that are currently praising Hitler in other threads.