Islam on the march?

[savedbygrace05]

Living out in the sticks, I don't get to visit big cities very often. However having visited two large Scottish cities in the past few months, in both cities on a Saturday afternoon I noticed (for the first time) muslims on the streets seeking converts. Is this a recent thing in Scotland, and how common is it in England?

 

[MorkandMindy]

I spent a couple of hours out in the street while my kids did their Christmas shopping and there were two religious stands seeking converts so I visited both of them and they both had the same message about the World falling into immorality.


I visited the Islamic one first because I knew it would be a simple message which it was, and also that I wasn't going to enter into debate because I'm not familiar with Islam.


The other stand had two Evangelical Christians and again was going on about growing immorality in the World.


I guess if I'd agreed with both stands then I would have become an Evangelical Christian Muslim,


but I didn't. Instead I discussed with the Evangelical Christians examples from recent history that indicate improved ethical standards in both the US and Britain. Neither the young female on the stand nor the far more experienced man nearby was able to support the claim of falling moral standards that they were making.


I let them off the hook of course because I'm out to learn and not to argue, so I asked what a Christian life would be: how much effort should go into making money, is Christianity fully pacifist except in self defence or is it OK to go to war against Iraq, what would a fully committed Christian be - would the person become a wandering evangelist?


I got no answers. I might have done better at the Islamic stand, but I didn't feel right with them because they are a different colour and a different culture.

 

[All Englands Skies]

Living out in the sticks, I don't get to visit big cities very often. However having visited two large Scottish cities in the past few months, in both cities on a Saturday afternoon I noticed (for the first time) muslims on the streets seeking converts. Is this a recent thing in Scotland, and how common is it in England?

Get them in my city.

The types they are, if they ever got a chance at power (never happen I think) they'd be the first to stop others seeking converts away from Islam, but they love using our freedoms to spread there message.

 

[ebia]

I got no answers. I might have done better at the Islamic stand, but I didn't feel right with them because they are a different colour and a different culture.

You got no answers at all?

 

[ebia]

Get them in my city. The types they are, if they ever got a chance at power (never happen I think) they'd be the first to stop others seeking converts away from Islam, but they love using our freedoms to spread there message.

Well, that's the point, isn't it. If one really believes in freedom of religion that must include the freedom to believe a religion that does believe in freedom of religion.

 

[All Englands Skies]

Well, that's the point, isn't it. If one really believes in freedom of religion that must include the freedom to believe a religion that does believe in freedom of religion.

But its the fact they can be so blinkered about it.

 

[ebia]

But its the fact they can be so blinkered about it.

Who's "they"?

 

[Doubting Bob]

Islamic groups have been a feature of saturday morning shopping in Derby for years. Sometimes there are rival groups camped out in front of St.Peters Church, trying to outshout each other. I have never seen anybody engage them or even take a leaflet, they seem to get a wide berth. One of my Muslim friends who occasionally does his evangelical duty tells me that if anyone does talk to him they are more likely to be a Muslim from another group than someone interested in converting.

 

[ebia]

Islamic groups have been a feature of saturday morning shopping in Derby for years.

How many Muslims do you buy each week, on average?

 

[theFijian]

I spent a couple of hours out in the street while my kids did their Christmas shopping and there were two religious stands seeking converts so I visited both of them and they both had the same message about the World falling into immorality.


I visited the Islamic one first because I knew it would be a simple message which it was, and also that I wasn't going to enter into debate because I'm not familiar with Islam.


The other stand had two Evangelical Christians and again was going on about growing immorality in the World.


I guess if I'd agreed with both stands then I would have become an Evangelical Christian Muslim,


but I didn't. Instead I discussed with the Evangelical Christians examples from recent history that indicate improved ethical standards in both the US and Britain. Neither the young female on the stand nor the far more experienced man nearby was able to support the claim of falling moral standards that they were making.


I let them off the hook of course because I'm out to learn and not to argue, so I asked what a Christian life would be: how much effort should go into making money, is Christianity fully pacifist except in self defence or is it OK to go to war against Iraq, what would a fully committed Christian be - would the person become a wandering evangelist?


I got no answers. I might have done better at the Islamic stand, but I didn't feel right with them because they are a different colour and a different culture.

Is this entire post a parody? You apparently can evidence improved ethical standards in the the US and Britain? The Muslims were a different colour and culture; were you surprised? I find it hard to take any of this seriously.

 

[non-religious]

[MorkandMindy]
I got no answers. I might have done better at the Islamic stand, but I didn't feel right with them because they are a different colour and a different culture.

Good grief! And this is the face of Christianity that you want to promote? Unbelievable.

I will let you into a little secret. There are many Muslims who are both British (and yes, AES you can use the dog being born in a stable analogy if it makes you feel better about yourself) and Muslim and some of them, heaven forbid, are actually white too. The fact that you feel a sense of alienation speaks more about your own insecurities and prejudice than it does theirs.

 

[non-religious]

[All Englands Skies]Get them in my city.

The types they are, if they ever got a chance at power (never happen I think) they'd be the first to stop others seeking converts away from Islam, but they love using our freedoms to spread there message.

*their message

If they're British then they have exactly the same "freedoms" that you enjoy. So when you rather predictably state "our freedoms" who exactly are you referring to? You and your ilk? And what are these freedoms AES?

 

[theFijian]

Good grief! And this is the face of Christianity that you want to promote? Unbelievable.

I will let you into a little secret. There are many Muslims who are both British (and yes, AES you can use the dog being born in a stable analogy if it makes you feel better about yourself) and Muslim and some of them, heaven forbid, are actually white too. The fact that you feel a sense of alienation speaks more about your own insecurities and prejudice than it does theirs.

Pretty sure it was a joke post, wither that or they clearly aren't representative of 'the face of Christianity'

 

[non-religious]

[theFijian]Pretty sure it was a joke post,

Maybe it was, I haven't read enough of the poster's comments to make an informed decision. If it was, then accept my apologies. If it wasn't, then my point still stands.

wither that or they clearly aren't representative of 'the face of Christianity'

That depends entirely upon what face you are looking at.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Good grief! And this is the face of Christianity that you want to promote? Unbelievable.

I will let you into a little secret. There are many Muslims who are both British (and yes, AES you can use the dog being born in a stable analogy if it makes you feel better about yourself) and Muslim and some of them, heaven forbid, are actually white too. The fact that you feel a sense of alienation speaks more about your own insecurities and prejudice than it does theirs.

Seriously? You really think Mand M wants to promote Christianity? Did you read the whole post or just one sentence? AES did not post anything about the color or culture of Muslims and M and M was commenting upon a particular stand of Muslims and the reason that M and M avoided engaging in debate with those particular Muslims in the same way as M and M engaged in debate with nearby Christians on that particular day not making a general statement about Muslims. I find the quoted comment curious as it seems to reveal a certain intolerance of different color and culture. Although it doesn't prove the non existence of such a stereotype on the part of M and M ,the comment isn't sufficient to prove that M and M holds a stereotypic view of Muslims in general.

 

[non-religious]

[grasping the after wind]Seriously? You really think Mand M wants to promote Christianity? Did you read the whole post or just one sentence?

I will accept the point that M&M isn't about promoting Christianity, given the fact I just went and checked on his/her page to see what faith icon is on their page. So I will recant that specific part of my post and offer my apologies to M&M.

AES did not post anything about the color or culture of Muslims

I have read a substantial number of AES posts and he has an unhealthy fixation with both race and Islam. So my point, whether you approve or not, still stands and is valid.

I find the quoted comment curious as it seems to reveal a certain intolerance of different color and culture. Although it doesn't prove the non existence of such a stereotype on the part of M and M ,the comment isn't sufficient to prove that M and M holds a stereotypic view of Muslims in general.

Again, my point still stands and of course it illustrates a profound ignorance on his/her part. How one can say otherwise is beyond me.

 

[theFijian]

That depends entirely upon what face you are looking at.

So you're happy to be the face of atheism then?

 

[non-religious]

[theFijian]So you're happy to be the face of atheism then?

Given that I try to live a life that treats all people regardless of sexuality, race, gender and culture as equal, then yes, I am happy to be a face of atheism. Can you say that all religions, including yours, can say that they treat all people as equal? No, of course you can't; hence the reason why I wrote that line. Are there not a myriad of differing sects/denominations of Christianity (different faces?) Do some have more questionably abhorrent practices and beliefs than others?

I'm not point scoring here, merely pointing out the obvious.

As a final point. The more I think about, the more it seems perhaps M&M's post was intended to be a joke to make a wider point. (At least I hope it was)

 

[MorkandMindy]

Is this entire post a parody? You apparently can evidence improved ethical standards in the the US and Britain? The Muslims were a different colour and culture; were you surprised? I find it hard to take any of this seriously.

No it isn't a parody - the failure of Fundamentalist and Evangelical Christians to notice the improved ethical standards never ceases to amaze me.


Here in Oxford we have a cross in the road. It was hard to ignore that historical point because that cross was 350 feet from where we were engaged in conversation (we were in front of HMV).

The cross marks the spot where three Protestant Christian leaders were burnt alive, two in 1555, one in 1556. Of course that is a long time ago when life was short and brutal, and Christianity ran the show.



I then made a comparison between the American / Vietnam war where 2 million had already been killed before the anti war protests even started, and those protests were dismissed by the general public.

and compared it with the more recent invasion of Iraq where a huge anti war protest went through London even before the official start of the invasion. That was also ignored, but only by the government, not by the public. That shows an increased interest in doing what is right.



So I asked what the Christian view on the invasion or the Vietnam War was and the experienced Christian said he personally felt war should be avoided wherever possible but that others in the church had other opinions.

I stated that if Christianity did not have an ethical stand on the topic then it could not be regarded as having moral relevance in our present World.

 

[non-religious]

[MorkandMindy]
I might have done better at the Islamic stand, but I didn't feel right with them because they are a different colour and a different culture.

Given that your story wasn't a parody, my point clearly has some merit.

The fact that you feel a sense of alienation speaks more about your own insecurities and prejudice than it does theirs.