Isa. 45:7

jamadan

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I agree with the NASB interpretation

The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing [a]well-being and creating calamity;
I am the Lord who does all these.

So not 'evil' as in a moral thing, but as in a natural phenomena like a 'disaster' or 'calamity'. There is a very good analysis here - Does God create evil? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
 
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New_Wineskin

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How ought we to interpret Isaiah 45:7?

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
It is pretty much a declaration of power for benefit or downfall - as He chooses - so , keep this in mind when going through your day-to-day life .
 
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Tallen

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How ought we to interpret Isaiah 45:7?

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

This is a positional statement. Among all of the gods (elohim) there is none like Him, beside Him, equal to Him. He is above and over all other elohim. Look at the context of the statement;

I am the YHWH, and there is none else, there is no elohim beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the YHWH, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the YHWH do all these things. (Isaiah 45:5-7)

The Hebrew that is translated "there is no God beside me" infers that there is no god that is equal to YHWH. Beside Him meaning next to Him, not besides Him mean no other gods. It's important to note that He is calling Himself by name, YHWH. It is not saying that He is the only God, it is saying that He is that God that has no equal among the gods. So it is noted that these other elohim that the scripture talks about are not YHWH's equal. YHWH is the Creator elohim, and all other gods are below Him. So it is to Him that man should look, He is the one that formed the light and darkness, He is the one that makes peace (shalom) and evil (ra, the opposite of peace, adversity). These verses are pointing out the nature of YHWH's creation. He has done both created light and darkness, created peace and adversity. These are His works. YHWH is the one that does these things.

BTW, the elohim of scripture are a class of beings. They exist in a council, which is conveined before YHWH. YHWH is in this class of beings. This is also a reference to that council. They are not Him and He is above them. There is no other elohim that are beside Him. Beside, not in that there is no other god except Him, but there is no other god equal to him.

That's what you are reading about in this passage.

Blessings.
 
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Yahu

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This is a positional statement. Among all of the gods (elohim) there is none like Him, beside Him, equal to Him. He is above and over all other elohim. Look at the context of the statement;

I am the YHWH, and there is none else, there is no elohim beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the YHWH, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the YHWH do all these things. (Isaiah 45:5-7)

The Hebrew that is translated "there is no God beside me" infers that there is no god that is equal to YHWH. Beside Him meaning next to Him, not besides Him mean no other gods. It's important to note that He is calling Himself by name, YHWH. It is not saying that He is the only God, it is saying that He is that God that has no equal among the gods. So it is noted that these other elohim that the scripture talks about are not YHWH's equal. YHWH is the Creator elohim, and all other gods are below Him. So it is to Him that man should look, He is the one that formed the light and darkness, He is the one that makes peace (shalom) and evil (ra, the opposite of peace, adversity). These verses are pointing out the nature of YHWH's creation. He has done both created light and darkness, created peace and adversity. These are His works. YHWH is the one that does these things.

BTW, the elohim of scripture are a class of beings. They exist in a council, which is conveined before YHWH. YHWH is in this class of beings. This is also a reference to that council. They are not Him and He is above them. There is no other elohim that are beside Him. Beside, not in that there is no other god except Him, but there is no other god equal to him.

That's what you are reading about in this passage.

Blessings.
I agree. He is just stating He is the CREATOR of all that is, even the other Elohyim. Elohyim just means 'mighty ones'. He is the mightiest of the mighty ones.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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How ought we to interpret Isaiah 45:7?

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
The Hebrew language used these opposites in order to clarify the context of the saying.
We have light... which is the opposite if darkness. So when it says "I form the light" you can tell what "light" means because the reference to "darkness" clarifies exactly what He means by "light." It established context.

So when we read "I make peace" and then He says "and create evil" He is taking about evil in the context of something that is opposite from peace.
What is the opposite of peace? It is turmoil and restlessness. Think of a peaceful sea as opposed to a raging sea.

IMO
 
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Faulty

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How ought we to interpret Isaiah 45:7?

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.


One don't need to search much in the OT or Revelation to see that God brings both blessings and calamity on His people as He sees fit. Just spend some time in the prophets. Ouch! Painful stuff!
 
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One don't need to search much in the OT or Revelation to see that God brings both blessings and calamity on His people as He sees fit. Just spend some time in the prophets. Ouch! Painful stuff!

That is true.

Part of the problem however, is what kind of a loving parent does that to their children they claim to love?

I don't give my kids cancer, AIDS, poverty, misery and suffering. Why does God?
 
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SavedByGrace3

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That is true.

Part of the problem however, is what kind of a loving parent does that to their children they claim to love?

I don't give my kids cancer, AIDS, poverty, misery and suffering. Why does God?

If both these premises are true, then you are absolutely correct.

We have a dichotomy that cannot logically be resolved.

A and B oppose each other like water and oil. We can shake them up all we want... but they are still separate and they will never make sense.

We are left, I think with two choices.

1. Accept the dichotomy as unsolvable and move on. Do not drive yourself crazy trying to explain that which cannot be logically explained. If there is an answer, it cannot be found in the realm of logical thinking. Consider the possibility that you will never find the answer. Perhaps the answer is just beyond the reach of logic and our ability to understand. Perhaps this is one of those "hidden things" that belong to God and this is a life test for all of us. Will we choose to love and follow Him despite what we are seeing and what appears to be true?

2. Consider that one of your two premises are false. The question "How can round squares exist?" has no logical answer because it is a non-sense question. There is no such thing as a round square. There is no such thing as the square root of a negative one. There is no such thing as a mile that is only 2 feet in length. I am not going to give up on geometry and math because nobody can answer these questions. They may attempt to explain the error in the question to me, but if I reject what they say and continue to demand an answer for that round square, I am simply torturing myself.

So where do we go from here? If we go with #1 and resolve that that we will forever be in ignorance, and that this is all some sort of test; then it appears we are forgiving God, or perhaps giving Him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to what appears to be His doing evil things. We blindly love and believe in Him despite His "failings"(sic). We "just let it go," "give Him a break," and "let Him off the hook"? This essentially makes us better than God. He is the object of our grace and mercy. We see beyond His short comings and love Him anyways. That sounds odd and is odd. I personally reject this.

As for Option #2. Perhaps one or both of our premises are false.

Several have pointed out that we as good parents would never put cancer on a child, kill a child, or do any of the myriad of evil things that appear to be happening in the world. There are only two possibilities for us to consider.

Either:
God is not good, or
God is not in control.

Most people will cringe at both of these.

((I do not think that suggesting good is somehow different for us than for God is viable. Jesus said for us to be perfect as the Father in heaven is perfect. Well, if "good" for God means killing babies... then to be perfect as the Father would allow us to kill babies to accomplish our purposes. This is not an option. Higher ways are not worse ways, they are better. Higher thoughts are not worse thoughts, they are better. Jesus compared the "fatherly" behavior of God to be of the same nature as the "fatherly" behavior of men. We do not give our children snakes, neither does God. ))

In the end, my personal resolution to the dichotomy is that God is not "in control of everything" nor does He claim to be. This idea is simply erroneous and is a holdover from the pagan beliefs of ancient Rome and Greece. He does not promise to protect all humans from danger, defeat, death, sorrow, pain, agony, sickness, or even hell. He has supplied a resolution to these things via the gospel, but He does not force His solution upon us. As for me this resolves the issue. Satan is the god of this world, he has power to harm, and he is a lion who will devour us if we choose not to be sober and vigilant. If we do not resist him, he will have at us. He does not ask God permission and does not need permission. He has had permission since day one just as we all have permission to do evil if we choose. How can I prove these ideas? I simply look around at my life, your life, and the lives of all men. The facts of life prove my position. The dichotomy mentioned above does not exist because one of the premises is false.

Some will suggest that if we have faith then we may be free from all harm. Does this hold true for all? Does it hold true for any? Not that I have seen. Even the best of people suffer. Even the most faithful have hardships and pain. We need to consider the reality that some issues are beyond our faith to overcome. Millions of faithful Christians died in WW2. Did they not have faith? I think they did. But the things that came upon them were simply beyond their ability to do anything about. Ultimately their death (as a result of satan's influence in the world) worked out better for them. They woke up in heaven free forever from all pain, suffering, sorrow and depression. They woke up and were present with the Lord. Not a bad deal really. Some of my dear WoF friends may call this a cop out. There was a day that I might have done the same.

The only question I cannot resolve is the question of culpability. In our courts we have the concept of culpability. Is a person culpable, that is, can they be held responsible for a crime they committed if they were not able to:
1. Comprehend the immediate ramifications of their crime, or
2. Perceive the judgment against them as a result of their crime.

Do they understand that what they did was a crime, and could they comprehend what would result from their actions?

Consider a parent taking a 3 year old out into the 2 foot median of a busy 6 lane highway. The parent sternly explains the rules of the road to the child. The parent then leaves the child there in the 2 foot median with a parting instruction:

"Remember what I said now.... it is your choice.. it is up to you now."

Is that child culpable for its actions? Can the child really comprehend the ramifications of stepping in front of an 18 wheeler? Can we hold the child responsible for it's own demise?

"Well I told the child exactly what to do!!!"

Are we no less children placed in a much worse place than this child?
Can you comprehend eternity? Can you conceive an eternal heaven/hell that you have never seen or possibly never heard of? Like the child, can we be expected to make the correct choice when we step out into the vast eternal highway? Does God really base our eternal destiny on the "choice" of a broken, blind baby wandering in darkness?

My only resolution is to remove the answer from the realm of choice.
It is not choice... it is revelation.

But that is another topic...
 
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SavedByGrace3

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I wanted to clarify something in this my earlier post.
It is not really opposites. It is the absence of one from the other.
The absence of light is dark. So when God created light, He indirectly created the possibility of darkness. Darkness is just the absence of that light. Darkness did not really have to be created... it was already there. The creation of light just defined what darkness was. Without light we would not know what darkness was.

This is also true of peace and chaos. God creates peace, and the absence of peace is chaos. One might suggest that the default was chaos. Chaos existed until peace was created. Chaos did not have to be created.. it was already there. Peace was created and defined what chaos was.

I think Genesis 1 bares this out. God created the heavens and the earth, and the darkness and chaos were upon the face of the earth. It was only later that God created light and gave order to the chaotic, dark earth.
The darkness and chaos were already there in the absence of light and order. The light and order (peace) merely defined them.

Peace


The Hebrew language used these opposites in order to clarify the context of the saying.
We have light... which is the opposite if darkness. So when it says "I form the light" you can tell what "light" means because the reference to "darkness" clarifies exactly what He means by "light." It established context.

So when we read "I make peace" and then He says "and create evil" He is taking about evil in the context of something that is opposite from peace.
What is the opposite of peace? It is turmoil and restlessness. Think of a peaceful sea as opposed to a raging sea.

IMO
 
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