Is this the hardest teaching of Jesus as it relates to Salvation?

[John Mullally]

.

 

[BBAS 64]

It is more likely that they were offended because He was making statements like:

John 6:53-56 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

As for:

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

It is not talking about the inability of man to make choices. If you read John 14, a passage dedicated to speaking about how we receive the Holy Spirit, you will see this “drawing” only occurs “after” we walk in obedience to God’s command.

John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."

John 14:23-24 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

1. We receive the word
2. We keep it
3. The one who keeps the Word is loved by God
4. The one loved by God receives manifestation

Note that one of the commands of Jesus is to “believe in the one whom God sent”, so I am not advocating a works based salvation. But rather as we accept God’s offer of forgiveness, and the Holy Spirit, we are deemed righteous. Yet, deeds should follow James 2:14.

James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

Rom 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!

Good day, FAH

Highly unlikely that it had any thing to do with 6:53-56. That would be an erroneous interpretation of the the text by the Roman Catholic denomination. I would suggest Augustine's work on the passage.

But of course if you are a member of that denomination you are clearly bound by what they tell you.

Consider:

Joh 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.

This refers to the statement he just made.

You are correct it has nothing to do with Man's ability to chose, But mans clear inability to come to Christ ( no man can come to me unless it is granted).

Now if you would like to speculate that man can choose with out being first grated that which he is unable, then be my guest.

In Him,

Bill

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Good day, FAH

Highly unlikely that it had any thing to do with 6:53-56. That would be an erroneous interpretation of the the text by the Roman Catholic denomination. I would suggest Augustine's work on the passage.

But of course if you are a member of that denomination you are clearly bound by what they tell you.

Consider:

Joh 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.

This refers to the statement he just made.

You are correct it has nothing to do with Man's ability to chose, But mans clear inability to come to Christ ( no man can come to me unless it is granted).

Now if you would like to speculate that man can choose with out being first grated that which he is unable, then be my guest.

In Him,

Bill

Well, I do believe man can choose without being granted. All are granted light, but it is the choice they make that determines the outcome.

Job 36:9-12 Then He tells them their work and their transgressions—That they have acted defiantly. He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

It occurs similarly to the above:

1. God opens the eyes/ears of the person to the truth
2. If they obey they will live
3. If they do not obey they will perish

As a Calvinist, you speak of the opening of the eyes of only the elect. Your order of salvation is God grants the Holy Spirit and the eyes are open. But if we look at verses that "do" refer to receiving the Holy Spirit, the order is very different. Man's response to the word of God determines if he receives the Holy Spirit.

John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."

John 14:23-24 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

1. We receive the word
2. We keep it
3. The one who keeps the Word is loved by God
4. The one loved by God receives manifestation

 

[FutureAndAHope]

... I would suggest Augustine's work on the passage...

You wish to look to the Church Fathers. But Augustine came 100's of years after Jesus. He supports your views. But if we look at those separated only generationally from Christ and the apostles, they fought Fatalism (a kind of predestination) and clearly stated man is a free agent, and has genuine free will concerning salvation.

All the Earliest Chruch Leaders (within around 150 years of Jesus) taught that man has genuine free will, and that people were not preselected for salvation:

Irenaeus (120-202 AD) in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 shows clearly that it is man's free will choice to choose or reject God.

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom 2:4, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.


Justin Martyr (110-165) brings up the topic of Predestination (Fatalism) and says it is not what the Church believed in his day

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 56-50

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho

Chap. CXL. — In Christ All Are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They Are Sons of Abraham.

...Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be...

Chap. CXLI. — Free-Will in Men and Angels.

...But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’...

 

[John Mullally]

Good day, FAH

Highly unlikely that it had any thing to do with 6:53-56. That would be an erroneous interpretation of the the text by the Roman Catholic denomination. I would suggest Augustine's work on the passage.

But of course if you are a member of that denomination you are clearly bound by what they tell you.

Consider:

Joh 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.

You assume that there is nothing these could have done to come to Jesus. But, going back to John 6:45 (the OP referenced John 6:44), we see that the Father grants those who learn from the Father to be drawn to Jesus.

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God. Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.​

​

A little later in John 7, Jesus tells the Jews that those who choose to do the will of God will know if His teaching was of God. Why would Jesus be saying that if many people are blocked from even choosing to do God's will? It would seem that if that were the case, Jesus would simply explain that God predetermined who would and who would not come to Him, instead of referencing a choice that people make.

John 7:17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.​

Post Calvary, all people are drawn to Jesus.

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up[g] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”​

Now if you would like to speculate that man can choose with out being first grated that which he is unable, then be my guest.

Those faithful Jews who had learned from the Father (John 6:45) were drawn to Jesus. We see that with the very early examples of Simeon and Anna in Luke 2:21-38.

 

[BBAS 64]

You assume that there is nothing these could have done to come to Jesus. But, going back to John 6:45 (the OP referenced John 6:44), we see that the Father grants those who learn from the Father to be drawn to Jesus.

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God. Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.​

​

A little later in John 7, Jesus tells the Jews that those who choose to do the will of God will know if His teaching was of God. Why would Jesus be saying that if many people are blocked from even choosing to do God's will? It would seem that if that were the case, Jesus would simply explain that God predetermined who would and who would not come to Him, instead of referencing a choice that people make.

John 7:17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.​

Post Calvary, all people are drawn to Jesus.

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up[g] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”​

Those faithful Jews who had learned from the Father (John 6:45) were drawn to Jesus. We see that with the very early examples of Simeon and Anna in Luke 2:21-38.

Good day, John

I am assuming nothing.

I am telling you that the phase "No one can come to me" means that no body is able to come.

So YES there is nothing they could have done they were unable to do so, because they cannot.



Unless God does something to over come their inability to come, if God does not act they remain unable to come.

The second part of the text is really a quote from Isa 54:13. Also quoted in Hebrews 8:10-11

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.” In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.



If you would like if you could get a copy of DA Carson's work on NT use of the OT we can take a look at the use of Isa 54:13 in the NT.

Any one who chooses to do the will of God has their heart of stone changed by God, and He has put His sprint within them and He is the cause of then doing his will. It is the new heart that he write His law upon and as a result of that work we become His people that is the beauty of the new Covenant

Jesus speaks John 12:32 for the explicit purpose "He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die. "
Certainly not what you suppose it to mean, clearly the text tells us why he said it and what it means.

They are drawn by the Father, and given to the Son for the explicit purpose of being raised up on the last day.

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

The Father Gives ( cause) and we all come (effect) and he raise those given up on the last day ( purpose) which can not be thwarted.

Every single one given by the comes to the son with out fail the wonder of the NC.

Jesus says it again.... Joh 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

If the Father does not Grant you to come you remain unable to do so.

Worship God because he is the only sufficient and effective cause of our Salvation. He has given us to His son for a purpose that the Son carries out.

You John came to the Son because of the work Father in making you His own.

Salvation is of the Lord!

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

Well, I do believe man can choose without being granted. All are granted light, but it is the choice they make that determines the outcome.

Job 36:9-12 Then He tells them their work and their transgressions—That they have acted defiantly. He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

It occurs similarly to the above:

1. God opens the eyes/ears of the person to the truth
2. If they obey they will live
3. If they do not obey they will perish

As a Calvinist, you speak of the opening of the eyes of only the elect. Your order of salvation is God grants the Holy Spirit and the eyes are open. But if we look at verses that "do" refer to receiving the Holy Spirit, the order is very different. Man's response to the word of God determines if he receives the Holy Spirit.

John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."

John 14:23-24 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

1. We receive the word
2. We keep it
3. The one who keeps the Word is loved by God
4. The one loved by God receives manifestation

Good day,

So you believe that you can choose that which you are unable to do.... Excuse me please. That statement is pure non-sense.

No man Can means no man Can.

When Jesus says it has to granted it has to be granted.

I know you wish it was other wise, but I will stick to what the Text means by what it says.

The Order of Salvation is Biblical John Bunyan did a great pictorial representation of it "The Order and Causes of Salvation and Damnation"

I would strongly commend it to you.

Not sure as a Calvinist said anything like you assert.

God determines who receives His Spirit, now the means he uses is His means, but he is the only determining factor.

All the verbs here are done by God, now those actions (cause) have intended purposes or effects that is true. The purposes are His, and the effects are guaranteed.

He gives, He puts and He causes you to walk and obey.

I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Worship God for the work He has accomplished in your life and for being the only necessary, sufficient , effective cause of your very Salvation.


In Him

Bill

 

[John Mullally]

Good day, John

I am assuming nothing.

I am telling you that the phase "No one can come to me" means that no body is able to come.

So YES there is nothing they could have done they were unable to do so, because they cannot.

Unless God does something to over come their inability to come, if God does not act they remain unable to come.

Jesus had to be crucified in order to redeem mankind, so he was not trying to convince all the Jews to follow him. He lays out conditions under which the Jews in his day would be drawn by the Father to believe in him.

• In John 5:45-47, he tells Jewish leaders that those who don't believe Moses cannot believe him. He does not say people cannot believe Moses. This shows a reason for God not drawing some at that time.
• In John 6:45, he tells us that those who learn from the Father will come to him. He does not say people are unable to learn from the Father.
• In John 7:17, he says that "Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own" (NIV). Jesus would not say "Anyone who chooses", if we can't freely make that choice.
• In John 10:38, he calls on those opponents who he earlier termed "not my sheep" to "know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father” by his works (i.e. miracles). Why try to convince "not my sheep" to become followers (i.e. his sheep)? Nicodemus is an example of someone who did this earlier in his ministry (John 3).

The second part of the text is really a quote from Isa 54:13. Also quoted in Hebrews 8:10-11

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.” In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Isaiah 54:13 and Hebrews 8:10-11 has not yet been fulfilled. In the book of Romans, Paul differentiates Gentiles and Jews (AKA the house of Israel). The house of Israel does not presently all know him - although one day they will (Romans 11:25-27).

If you would like if you could get a copy of DA Carson's work on NT use of the OT we can take a look at the use of Isa 54:13 in the NT.

Any one who chooses to do the will of God has their heart of stone changed by God, and He has put His sprint within them and He is the cause of then doing his will. It is the new heart that he write His law upon and as a result of that work we become His people that is the beauty of the new Covenant

Is it God or us doing the choosing "to do the will of God"? Jesus would not be instructing people to "choose to do the will of God" in John 7:17, if God is selecting exactly who will do that - as that would be misleading..

Jesus speaks John 12:32 for the explicit purpose "He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die. "
Certainly not what you suppose it to mean, clearly the text tells us why he said it and what it means.

Statements can convey multiple pieces of information. John 12:32 also shows that post-Calvary, Jesus will draw all people to himself. You are telling me you cannot see that.

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.​

They are drawn by the Father, and given to the Son for the explicit purpose of being raised up on the last day.

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

This passage is taken from John 6:37-39. The most important message to us is in the last sentence as it instructs us how to be saved. This compliments what Jesus told us earlier in John 3:14-15.

Since Jesus took upon Himself the “sin of the world,” (John 1:29), His atonement is therefore available to all, though is only applied whenever people place their faith in Him, just like His illustration at John 3:14-15 of Numbers 21:6-9 shows. Before a person looked upon the serpent on a standard, was anyone healed? Before a person believes in Jesus, is anyone saved?

The Father Gives ( cause) and we all come (effect) and he raise those given up on the last day ( purpose) which can not be thwarted.

Every single one given by the comes to the son with out fail the wonder of the NC.

Jesus says it again.... Joh 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

If the Father does not Grant you to come you remain unable to do so.

Worship God because he is the only sufficient and effective cause of our Salvation. He has given us to His son for a purpose that the Son carries out.

You John came to the Son because of the work Father in making you His own.

You assume that we don't have a choice in the matter of salvation. You are correct that the Father did not draw everyone to Jesus during his ministry. But that does not mean that this choice of God's was not constrained by choices that individuals made earlier - as I iterated in the first part of this post.

Salvation is of the Lord!

That does not mean that God has not instructed people on how they can be saved as we see in John 6:39 that you quoted as well as in numerous other NT passages.

 

[BBAS 64]

Jesus had to be crucified in order to redeem mankind, so he was not trying to convince all the Jews to follow him. He lays out conditions under which the Jews in his day would be drawn by the Father to believe in him.

• In John 5:45-47, he tells Jewish leaders that those who don't believe Moses cannot believe him. He does not say people cannot believe Moses. This shows a reason for God not drawing some at that time.
• In John 6:45, he tells us that those who learn from the Father will come to him. He does not say people are unable to learn from the Father.
• In John 7:17, he says that "Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own" (NIV). Jesus would not say "Anyone who chooses", if we can't freely make that choice.
• In John 10:38, he calls on those opponents who he earlier termed "not my sheep" to "know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father” by his works (i.e. miracles). Why try to convince "not my sheep" to become followers (i.e. his sheep)? Nicodemus is an example of someone who did this earlier in his ministry (John 3).

Isaiah 54:13 and Hebrews 8:10-11 has not yet been fulfilled. In the book of Romans, Paul differentiates Gentiles and Jews (AKA the house of Israel). The house of Israel does not presently all know him - although one day they will (Romans 11:25-27).

Is it God or us doing the choosing "to do the will of God"? Jesus would not be instructing people to "choose to do the will of God" in John 7:17, if God is selecting exactly who will do that - as that would be misleading..

Statements can convey multiple pieces of information. John 12:32 also shows that post-Calvary, Jesus will draw all people to himself. You are telling me you cannot see that.

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.​

I messed that up.... somehow.

 

[BBAS 64]

Jesus had to be crucified in order to redeem mankind, so he was not trying to convince all the Jews to follow him. He lays out conditions under which the Jews in his day would be drawn by the Father to believe in him.

• In John 5:45-47, he tells Jewish leaders that those who don't believe Moses cannot believe him. He does not say people cannot believe Moses. This shows a reason for God not drawing some at that time.
• In John 6:45, he tells us that those who learn from the Father will come to him. He does not say people are unable to learn from the Father.
• In John 7:17, he says that "Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own" (NIV). Jesus would not say "Anyone who chooses", if we can't freely make that choice.
• In John 10:38, he calls on those opponents who he earlier termed "not my sheep" to "know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father” by his works (i.e. miracles). Why try to convince "not my sheep" to become followers (i.e. his sheep)? Nicodemus is an example of someone who did this earlier in his ministry (John 3).

Isaiah 54:13 and Hebrews 8:10-11 has not yet been fulfilled. In the book of Romans, Paul differentiates Gentiles and Jews (AKA the house of Israel). The house of Israel does not presently all know him - although one day they will (Romans 11:25-27).

Is it God or us doing the choosing "to do the will of God"? Jesus would not be instructing people to "choose to do the will of God" in John 7:17, if God is selecting exactly who will do that - as that would be misleading..

Statements can convey multiple pieces of information. John 12:32 also shows that post-Calvary, Jesus will draw all people to himself. You are telling me you cannot see that.

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.​

This passage is taken from John 6:37-39. The most important message to us is in the last sentence as it instructs us how to be saved. This compliments what Jesus told us earlier in John 3:14-15.

Since Jesus took upon Himself the “sin of the world,” (John 1:29), His atonement is therefore available to all, though is only applied whenever people place their faith in Him, just like His illustration at John 3:14-15 of Numbers 21:6-9 shows. Before a person looked upon the serpent on a standard, was anyone healed? Before a person believes in Jesus, is anyone saved?

You assume that we don't have a choice in the matter of salvation. You are correct that the Father did not draw everyone to Jesus during his ministry. But that does not mean that this choice of God's was not constrained by choices that individuals made earlier - as I iterated in the first part of this post.

That does not mean that God has not instructed people on how they can be saved as we see in John 6:39 that you quoted as well as in numerous other NT passages.

Good day John

For some reason I am having a hard time replying tried to break your post up 3 times and failed... so I will do my best.

None of that changes the fact the no man can come means that no man has the ability to come, unless God does something.

I would disagree with your assessment of Isa 54 and Hebrews 8. I suppose your misunderstand may be due to the nature and purpose of the NC.

But, I digress...
No different same as Jesus telling people to come unto Him, knowing that they are unable to come.

We choose those choices by us are effects of the work that God has done.

He causes us to walk in His ways and obey His statues we choose do it He alone is the cause

He gives, He puts, He removes, .... we walk and obey. Simple (cause and effect)

I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

No I do not see that the context does not lead it self to such interpretation, and the writer explicitly tells us why he said it.

No being saved requires one to believe.

The command of the Gospel is Repent and believe. We do that only as a result of Gods work in us ( He is the cause).

Repentance and Faith are the gifts that Our Father gives to the children he chooses to adopt as his own. People who are not God's children to not have so they are unable to exercise these gifts as they do not have them.

These gifts are given for a purpose and that purpose can not be thwarted, much like the work of God in His actions of putting, giving and removing the purpose for which he does those things are a sure outcome (we walk and obey)


Do you think God has the right to choose whom he adopts??

His Atonement is not available to all, His atonement accomplishes the purpose for which is was made.

Those the Father Gives to Him, those the Father adopts, those who the Father ( gives, puts, and removes, and causes), those the Father grants Faith, and repentance... Those are the only ones for whom Jesus atones for (His people, His sheep)

I never said man does not have a choice in Salvation.. John where did I say that???

Man does choose, his choice is the same as God's choice there is nothing wrong John that you made the same choice as God made is there?


The Prince of Preachers had it correct:

"A man is not saved against his will, but he is made willing by the operation of the Holy Ghost. A mighty grace which he does not wish to resist enters into the man, disarms him, makes a new creature of him, and he is saved." - C.H Spurgeon

The Father Draws people to overcome their inability (full circle) if the Father does not Draw you are still unable to come.

Yes indeed the Scripture do tell us how God Saves people and as God's children we should rejoice that he really does save people in accordance with His good pleasure.

Salvation is of the Lord!

The central truth of God’s saving grace is succinctly
stated in the assertion, ‘Salvation is of the Lord.’
This strong declaration means that every aspect of
man’s salvation is from God and is entirely
dependent upon God. The only contribution that we
make is the sin that was laid upon Jesus Christ at
the cross. The Apostle Paul affirmed this when he
wrote, ‘From Him and through Him and to Him are
all things’ (Rom. 11:36). This is to say, salvation is
God determined, God purchased, God applied, and
God secured. From start to finish, salvation is of the
Lord alone.

This truth is best summarized in the doctrines of
grace, which are total depravity, unconditional
election, definite atonement, effectual calling, and
preserving grace. These truths present the triune
God as the author of our salvation from beginning to
end. Each member of the Godhead—Father, Son,
and Spirit—has a part to play in redemption, and
they work together as one God to rescue those
perishing under divine wrath. In perfect unity, the
three divine persons do the work that hellbound
sinners, utterly unable to save themselves, cannot
do.”
- Excerpt from, “Salvation is of the Lord”,
by Dr. Steven Lawson:
Salvation Is of the Lord by Steven Lawson

In Him,

Bill