Tim,
We agree on more than we disagree about, and I don't necessarily disagree with you. I'm still learning.
You say there are two separate events over 42 months, with Christ coming to the mount of Olives then later returning (I assume up to 42 months later) to win at Armageddon. Then you say the 2nd coming and rapture are not separate events, so I totally confused. Could you focus on the above statements and tell me what occurs when? Most premillennial pretribulation believers think the rapture occurs first in the Lord's secret return, when all believers are called up to be with the Lord and are transfigured on the spot, then they return with the Lord's Army after the 7 years. Mid-Trib and Pre-Wrath Premillenials also see 2 returns, just later in tribulation than the pretrib view. Is that what you are saying above? If not, could you please clarify your view?
Thanks,
Jeff
There is 2 events that seem to happen but I'm not sure if they are 2 returns from heaven or not.
there being 2 characteristically different events is pretty clear in scripture though. One being Jesus in the clouds, and all the tribes on Earth mourn and wail. That's Zechariah 12, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 1:7, Revelation 6:12-17, Revelation 14:14-20, and dare I say 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.
The second event is a battle, and that's shown in Zechariah 14, and Revelation 16:15-16 and Revelation 19.
Whether this second event is coming from Heaven or not, I do not know. Zechariah 14 says His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, but it does not describe a descent.
The other interesting passage is Isaiah 63, where Jesus has been on Earth treading the winepress of the wrath of God
alone.
But Revelation 19 has the armies of Heaven with Him.
Revelation 19 has His robe already dipped in blood, which many people claim is Symbolic of the blood He shed for us... but that's not in the scripture.
Revelation 14 describes a very bloody wrath of God, and Isaiah 63 has Jesus telling Isaiah that He stained his vestments in the blood of His enemies.
Isaiah 63
1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.
6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.
7 I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the Lord, and the praises of the Lord, according to all that the Lord hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses.
8 For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.
So you see.. there is a point.. where Jesus is approaching from the East, from Edom, with His garments stained in the blood of His enemies, and He is all alone. There are no people on Earth that are His (they have all been raptured). I also like this passage because it is one of the 2 places in Isaiah where Jesus interchangeably uses "the day" and "the year".. I try to point out to people who hold too literally "the day of the Lord" as being a single 24 hour day.
Unfortunately I've never seen it actually work, I'm really bad at convincing people to see what I see I guess.
Now, we have some puzzle pieces.
1. Jesus in the clouds, and the tribes wailing and mourning
2. Jesus on the Mount of Olives (where He was prophecied to return), and it cleaves in two.
3. Jesus all alone having tread the winepress of the wrath of God all alone.
4. Jesus riding to Armageddon with the saints behind Him.
How these pieces fit together, I do not entirely know.
It could be multiple returns I guess?
But maybe it's 1 return, the event in the clouds, with the rapture, and then splitting the Mount of Olives in two, and then Jesus is on Earth waging war all by Himself, until He is met by the saints that then follow Him into Armageddon.
If Isaiah is seeing the vision of His own future, that would make sense.. that Jesus approaches him, from the east, meeting with Isaiah and the rest of the saints who then follow Jesus into battle.
The thing is.. Jesus was also in heaven with the saints in Revelation 7.
So is Jesus simultaneously in Heaven and on Earth?
We are promised to always be with Him, so this vision of Jesus waging war by Himself after He returns doesn't seem to fit unless He is simultaneously on Earth and in Heaven.
Unfortunately I'm going to have to cut myself off here, my vision is getting all messed up from aura, which precedes Migraine.
Either I'm onto something and the enemy wants to prevent me continuing down this line of thought or I'm so wrong that God just wants me to shut up, I don't know.
