Is the self eternal?

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ananda

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IN my understanding, my "self" consists of a combination of five constantly mutable things: matter, sensation, perception, mental objects, and consciousness. Taken together, I perceive my "self".

To use a metaphor, multiple strands wrapped and joined together creates something called a "rope". Or, wheels, tires, a metal frame, an engine, transmission, and other parts, joined together, creates something called a "car".

Yet in the sense of my self - or even for a rope or car - we do not exist apart from the combination of the individual parts which makes up the whole. Additionally, the individual parts are all subject to change and decay. What is subject to change and decay cannot be eternal. So it cannot be said that there is anything identifiable in my "self" that is eternal.

Do you propose that the essential "self" is eternal, and what is it exactly that is eternal?
 

Ana the Ist

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No, I don't think our "self" is eternal. I've never encountered any evidence of a self existing after death...in some cases a self can be destroyed prior to death, and that's usually a sad situation.

Now, if you want to get all warm and fuzzy about it...you can discuss how part of our self will in some ways, big and small, eternally affect the future. The idea that as part of a social structure...or arguably just by being alive...we leave a footprint (no matter how tiny) upon the road of time. I've known some atheists who seem to genuinely like or believe this idea.

Perhaps what you should consider is...would you really want to exist eternally as your self? I think I can make a reasonable argument that you probably wouldn't enjoy the experience at some point and no longer enjoy it for an eternity afterwards. I won't get into that topic, since its not really the subject of your OP...but I think it's something to consider.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Self only lasts as long as your brain does. It's simply an extension of the brain and nothing more. There's a cold hard bit of reality for you.
I remember a discussion with another poster about this topic...he couldn't accept it. To him, it was such a bleak, desperate, depressing thought that he refused to believe it on emotion alone.

I've always wondered though, would people see it that way if they knew this from a young age? If it were an accepted truth from early in life...and no one went around promising you eternity...would it just be another fact like "the sun is hot"?
 
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GrimKingGrim

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I remember a discussion with another poster about this topic...he couldn't accept it. To him, it was such a bleak, desperate, depressing thought that he refused to believe it on emotion alone.

It is depressing if you obsess over it. Most of them just feel so sad about living. They want this cosmic importance as if friends and family weren't enough. They want to feel like the sun, moon, stars, planets, nature, etc were made carefully just for them to awe at as a result of a loving skyfather.

It's a nice thought, but life ain't fantasy.

I've always wondered though, would people see it that way if they knew this from a young age? If it were an accepted truth from early in life...and no one went around promising you eternity...would it just be another fact like "the sun is hot"?

Childhood is generally where alot of things stick. But I think neurological discussions with a child would be fruitless in the end lol. Magical beings like Santa and dragons would make them jump with awe (insert religion here), but brain discussion I don't think would keep their attention long enough to log the information in.
 
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Do you propose that the essential "self" is eternal, and what is it exactly that is eternal?

No, I propose that both the "self" and consciousness are emergent in that they are dependent for their existence on the right causes and conditions. Physical reality is eternal, or at least as eternal as it gets.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Colter

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IN my understanding, my "self" consists of a combination of five constantly mutable things: matter, sensation, perception, mental objects, and consciousness. Taken together, I perceive my "self".

To use a metaphor, multiple strands wrapped and joined together creates something called a "rope". Or, wheels, tires, a metal frame, an engine, transmission, and other parts, joined together, creates something called a "car".

Yet in the sense of my self - or even for a rope or car - we do not exist apart from the combination of the individual parts which makes up the whole. Additionally, the individual parts are all subject to change and decay. What is subject to change and decay cannot be eternal. So it cannot be said that there is anything identifiable in my "self" that is eternal.

Do you propose that the essential "self" is eternal, and what is it exactly that is eternal?
Personality, which comes from God, is changeless and potentially eternal. Within the mind arena of choice we can choose this potential destiny. Human mind has a spirit nucleus which is our guide if we choose the course of survival.
 
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Personality, which comes from God, is changeless and potentially eternal.

What does the word "personality" mean to you here? How can personality be changeless when people do apparently change in elements of their personality?

For instance, people change from children, to adolescents, to adults, to old people, with psychological changes along the way.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Colter

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What does the word "personality" mean to you here? How can personality be changeless when people do apparently change in elements of their personality?

For instance, people change from children, to adolescents, to adults, to old people, with psychological changes along the way.


eudaimonia,

Mark

To me personality is a unique qualifier in the identity of self which is a constant while all other aspects of a person may grow or change, progress, regress etc. For instance when I was reborn my parents noted enormous changes in me (which I was not aware of) but not so much that they would say I didn't still have that unique personality.

From my religious philosophy:

"The personality of mortal man is neither body, mind, nor spirit; neither is it the soul. Personality is the one changeless reality in an otherwise ever-changing creature experience; and it unifies all other associated factors of individuality. The personality is the unique bestowal which the Universal Father makes upon the living and associated energies of matter, mind, and spirit, and which survives with the survival of the morontial soul." UB
 
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To me personality is a unique qualifier in the identity of self which is a constant while all other aspects of a person may grow or change, progress, regress etc. For instance when I was reborn my parents noted enormous changes in me (which I was not aware of) but not so much that they would say I didn't still have that unique personality.

From my religious philosophy:

"The personality of mortal man is neither body, mind, nor spirit; neither is it the soul. Personality is the one changeless reality in an otherwise ever-changing creature experience; and it unifies all other associated factors of individuality. The personality is the unique bestowal which the Universal Father makes upon the living and associated energies of matter, mind, and spirit, and which survives with the survival of the morontial soul." UB

I am no closer to understanding what you think that personality is. What is that "one changeless reality"? Can you describe it?


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Colter

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I am no closer to understanding what you think that personality is. What is that "one changeless reality"? Can you describe it?


eudaimonia,

Mark

Will try again. Have you ever been to a school reunion where you encounter a person that you had not seen for 30 yeas or a long time? While many aspects of that person may have changed, after a moment of speaking with them their personality as a unique qualifier emerges and you remember them and can distinguish them.


personality
[ ˌpərsəˈnalitē ]
http://www.christianforums.com/javascript:void(0)
NOUN
noun: personality · plural noun: personalities
  1. the combination of characteristics or qualities that form an individual's distinctive character
 
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Will try again. Have you ever been to a school reunion where you encounter a person that you had not seen for 30 yeas or a long time? While many aspects of that person may have changed, after a moment of speaking with them their personality as a unique qualifier emerges and you remember them and can distinguish them.

Okay, I understand what you mean now. Thanks.

But I think that even that "unique qualifier" actually does change over time, even if it is still recognizable many years later.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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True Scotsman

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IN my understanding, my "self" consists of a combination of five constantly mutable things: matter, sensation, perception, mental objects, and consciousness. Taken together, I perceive my "self".

To use a metaphor, multiple strands wrapped and joined together creates something called a "rope". Or, wheels, tires, a metal frame, an engine, transmission, and other parts, joined together, creates something called a "car".

Yet in the sense of my self - or even for a rope or car - we do not exist apart from the combination of the individual parts which makes up the whole. Additionally, the individual parts are all subject to change and decay. What is subject to change and decay cannot be eternal. So it cannot be said that there is anything identifiable in my "self" that is eternal.

Do you propose that the essential "self" is eternal, and what is it exactly that is eternal?
There's no evidence that it is. I could imagine that it is and pretend that what I imagine is real but that would be useless. I imagine being dead will be just like it was before I was born and so I'm not scared of my personality ending because I won't be around to fret over it.

What I worry about most is living in the here and now. I think not believing that I will go on in some way forever makes life all the more sweet. Every moment is precious and not to be wasted. I worry about getting so old that I can't do the things I love to do like mountain biking and hiking. I'ts going to happen, I know this. So I try to fit in as much biking and hiking as I can now instead of wasting my time watching TV, except for the Walking Dead of Course. Best show ever besides Firefly.
 
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Colter

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"God is not only the determiner of destiny; he is man's eternal destination. All nonreligious human activities seek to bend the universe to the distorting service of self; the truly religious individual seeks to identify the self with the universe and then to dedicate the activities of this unified self to the service of the universe family of fellow beings, human and superhuman." UB
 
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Colter

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There's no evidence that it is. I could imagine that it is and pretend that what I imagine is real but that would be useless. I imagine being dead will be just like it was before I was born and so I'm not scared of my personality ending because I won't be around to fret over it.

What I worry about most is living in the here and now. I think not believing that I will go on in some way forever makes life all the more sweet. Every moment is precious and not to be wasted. I worry about getting so old that I can't do the things I love to do like mountain biking and hiking. I'ts going to happen, I know this. So I try to fit in as much biking and hiking as I can now instead of wasting my time watching TV, except for the Walking Dead of Course. Best show ever besides Firefly.

That's just so sad, really. Its the acme of self centeredness, the antithesis of the joy of service, eternal service, sharing.

"The religion of Jesus is salvation from self, deliverance from the evils of creature isolation in time and in eternity."
 
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True Scotsman

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That's just so sad, really. Its the acme of self centeredness, the antithesis of the joy of service, eternal service, sharing.

"The religion of Jesus is salvation from self, deliverance from the evils of creature isolation in time and in eternity."
Why is that sad? Why is concern with one's own life bad? Why is the good of others to be achieved but not your own? why must I consider my own self as the standard of evil while others are the standard of the good. I'm not a slave Colter. My life is not a means to the ends of others any more than their lives are means to my ends. I do not serve others Colter, I cooperate with others, I trade with others, I value others, I help others when I value them, but the justification for my existence isn't the good of others. My own good is my purpose just as their own good is the purpose of others' lives and on my view this is a very life affirming and respectful way of living. I don't treat people as sacrificial animals who are here to serve me. That's your irrational view of the morality of selflessness. There's no Earthly way to justify it and no Earthly way has ever been given. If you want to be selfless, I won't try to stop you, but don't put your anti-life morality on me. And don't quote the Urantia book to me any more. I consider it to be nonsense.
 
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Colter

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Why is that sad? Why is concern with one's own life bad? Why is the good of others to be achieved but not your own? why must I consider my own self as the standard of evil while others are the standard of the good. I'm not a slave Colter. My life is not a means to the ends of others any more than their lives are means to my ends. I do not serve others Colter, I cooperate with others, I trade with others, I value others, I help others when I value them, but the justification for my existence isn't the good of others. My own good is my purpose just as their own good is the purpose of others' lives and on my view this is a very life affirming and respectful way of living. I don't treat people as sacrificial animals who are here to serve me. That's your irrational view of the morality of selflessness. There's no Earthly way to justify it and no Earthly way has ever been given. If you want to be selfless, I won't try to stop you, but don't put your anti-life morality on me. And don't quote the Urantia book to me any more. I consider it to be nonsense.

* Self forgetfulness and service to others for the joy of it.

* You don't need to justify your existence any more than your children need to earn you as a Father, you are and they are. God have given you life and the joy of living it through endless experience if you want it regardless of how dense and stubborn you may be at present.

* "Anti life morality?" Your philosophy ends in death???

You've made extreme statements that aren't a reasonable representation of the issue of service to others for fun and for free. Yes, it is true that ultimately the self as a going concern is important to ones self; service is in love not indentured servitude. As you recall Jesus ultimately had a purpose of his own for all that he did for others. But giving is the nature of the Father, he didn't do it simply for self existence.

But I will quote the UB for the living if not for you.

"True liberty is the associate of genuine self-respect; false liberty is the consort of self-admiration. True liberty is the fruit of self-control; false liberty, the assumption of self-assertion. Self-control leads to altruistic service; self-admiration tends towards the exploitation of others for the selfish aggrandizement of such a mistaken individual as is willing to sacrifice righteous attainment for the sake of possessing unjust power over his fellow beings."
 
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ananda

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No, I don't think our "self" is eternal. I've never encountered any evidence of a self existing after death...in some cases a self can be destroyed prior to death, and that's usually a sad situation.

Now, if you want to get all warm and fuzzy about it...you can discuss how part of our self will in some ways, big and small, eternally affect the future. The idea that as part of a social structure...or arguably just by being alive...we leave a footprint (no matter how tiny) upon the road of time. I've known some atheists who seem to genuinely like or believe this idea.

Perhaps what you should consider is...would you really want to exist eternally as your self? I think I can make a reasonable argument that you probably wouldn't enjoy the experience at some point and no longer enjoy it for an eternity afterwards. I won't get into that topic, since its not really the subject of your OP...but I think it's something to consider.
What do you consider to be the "self"?
 
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ananda

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Self only lasts as long as your brain does. It's simply an extension of the brain and nothing more. There's a cold hard bit of reality for you.
I think that the fact that some have been discovered living normally without a brain shows that the brain is not the self.
 
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