Is the Outrage over RFRA due to fear of Christians?

Paulos23

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ThinkForYourself

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Fenny the Fox

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I definitely agree with much of what he had to say.

For too long our “love the sinner, hate the sin” mantra has been a clanging gong. When we fear having a law force us to serve someone, I think it is safe to say we don’t love them.
Perhaps now is the time for Christians to focus more on our responsibilities than our rights. Our responsibility is to love others like Christ. Our responsibility is to lay down our lives for another. Our responsibility is to give grace with same reckless abandon that put Christ on the cross. Our responsibility is to comfort the hurting, mend the brokenhearted, and stand up for the oppressed – even if we disagree with their theology, lifestyle, and choices.

^Worth quoting, I feel.
 
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Fenny the Fox

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I would say the author was being polite, this is about hatred towards Christians.

Which is an interesting view to take, him being simply polite about it. Given his reasons for why it may be about fear of (or even hatred of, as you think) Christians.
 
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Paulos23

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I would say the author was being polite, this is about hatred towards Christians.

I give the author credit for at least examining the reasons of the other side and actions of his fellow Christians.

It is not just hate, it is a reaction to past actions as well. And in that light, Christians supporting RFRA to discriminate against gays or SSM don't come out well.
 
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keith99

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Good article. I give that Pastor two thumbs up. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

I can only give it one.

It seems he is eager to spread rights to all religions, including ones that are shams, but does not have any thought for honest atheists.

It seems for all but the very best of Christians the best we can hope for is to be invisible.
 
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Paradoxum

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To me, conservative Christianity is (politically) about oppressing people.

I would say the author was being polite, this is about hatred towards Christians.

It's about discrimination against gay people.

I disagree strongly with conservative Christians, but I don't hate them. Hate is a strong word.
 
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SepiaAndDust

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I disagree strongly with conservative Christians, but I don't hate them. Hate is a strong word.

I'll cop to it--I hate a fair number of Christians.

Not because they're Christians, mind you, but because they're reprehensible human beings. Such reprobates already wield privilege enough simply by claiming the majority religion as their own, and I'm unwilling to extend to them further means of causing hurt.
 
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ThinkForYourself

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I can only give it one.

It seems he is eager to spread rights to all religions, including ones that are shams, but does not have any thought for honest atheists.

It seems for all but the very best of Christians the best we can hope for is to be invisible.

I reread the article, and you're right.

But being invisible is better than being hated lol.
 
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dgiharris

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I would say the author was being polite, this is about hatred towards Christians.

Yes and no.

Truthfully, I think it is mixture of fear and hate.

What do I fear and hate? The lack of logic and reason. I mean, it is impossible to reason with someone who believes God has told them to do XYZ. What argument can you render that negates a directive or mandate from God?

Doesn't matter the hypocrisy or lack of reason or the fact the logic doesn't hold up, all that matters is that they are doing what they believe God wants them to do. And nothing you can say or do will change their minds.

So, now, there are groups of Christians who feel that gays are the antithesis of Christianity. They are putting their faith on one side and purposefully pitting gays against their faith. And now, they are using their faith to justify various actions against gays.

Take this action.

Doctor refuses to treat baby of lesbian parents because they?re gay.

this action based on "belief" is something that a society that believes in Equality is going to "hate". And we don't want this sort of behavior in our society.

*sigh*

what's the point of this discussion? There is nothing I can say that is going to change the mind of a Christian who believes god is telling them to discriminate against gays.
 
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Look Up

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If memory of past years and happenstance reading occasions serve, the more foresighted Christian philosophers, LGBTQ (or the like) activists, and Constitution-watchers have long predicted a win-or-lose clash in the US between right of conscience on the one hand--typically religiously motivated, usually of the Christian religion in the US--and the rights of, shall we say, sexual expressions outside the traditional on the other (on what basis do we now exclude inappropriate behavior with animals and incest?).

Partly the prediction merely leans on events in Europe which appear to be further along than on this side of the pond, but there are other contributing reasons from within US context itself over the decades and generations arguably such as with regard to the progress of divorce, abortion, femininism and egalitarianism (that is varied expressions thereof) and what may broadly be termed the sexual revolution and moral relativism and post-modernism and secularization (never mind overlaps). The recent Indiana frenzy has old and varied roots.

The right of one pizzeria owner in Indiana not to serve a potential self-identifying gay customer is, I think, more of a fringe distraction feeding the frenzy rather than constituting a good example of the hard legal and social decisions affecting large swaths of the citizenry.

And in my understanding at least, the hard decisions are often subtle from a Christian perspective. What is intended and being communicated (and not communicated) by baking or refusing to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple? Is the position of a baker employee told to bake the same as that of the employer? For example. In some cases it may come down to individual conscience and ill-understood context even if broad principles are present.

And as a Christian, my theologically-driven response (and to a certain extent experientially driven) includes a suspicion that many are not in a good position to listen to some of the subtle points--including ones central in the opinion of the Christian under fire in such cases.

How does one argue a case in which the arguments have been "ruled out of court"--the court, that is especially, of public opinion? Or where there is a listening ear, when what is fundamental and weighty in the eyes of the Christian--something to stake one's job, reputation, or civil freedom on--is seen as mere flighty opinion of reprehensible sort? Or when the mere claim that homosexuality is a sin in itself indicts the Christian as a homophobe or anti-homosexual bully or narrow-minded bigot? Either homosexuality is a moral evil or the judgment that it is a moral evil is evil. Winner takes all (even if that is somewhat of an exaggeration across the population).

In my opinion, what is particularly at stake in the long haul for the Christian is the right to say what is right--what is demanded by God to say. That this in particular is what is vilified or ignored or marginalized (despite the biological demands of reproduction and the testimony of chromosomes?) does seem to suggest anger at, and I think as Paulos23 rightly puts it, fear of Christians--perhaps fear lest the Christian (or perhaps substantially yet with differences, US) traditional perspective be taken at all seriously on the matter.
 
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katherine2001

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Part of the problem is that some Christians are focusing on homosexuality while ignoring other serious sins that are listed in the same list of sins as homosexuality. I hope these people who don't want to provide services for gay weddings will also ask heterosexual couples about whether they have been celibate during their relationship since they are not married. If not, they are guilty of fornication and that is on the same list of sins as homosexuality. Also, are they going to be asked if they are divorced and, if so, was the grounds adultery and who was the one involved in adultery? If the person was the adulterer, is the person that is becoming the spouse the other party in the affair? I have a feeling those questions don't get asked because it is much easier to come down hard on sins that you are not tempted by--we tend to be a lot more compassionate when someone suffers from the same temptations we do.
 
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Audacious

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The only problem I have with the article is that it seems to assume that Christians will are represented on only one side of the argument: the pro-RFRA one. In reality, Christians make up the majority of both sides, which differ not on matters of faith but on how to interpret relatively minor portions of the Bible.
 
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dgiharris

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Ultimately I think the root cause of this is how we feel about homosexuals.

Historically in the West (ie the last 400 years) homosexuality was seen as an abomination. So much so that it was actually illegal up until as recent as 50 years in some Western Countries (England I believe).

Now, modern day social evolution has stated that homosexuals are people too, but not just people, EQUALS and that they deserve full and equal rights.

This is completely at odds with how homosexuals have been regarded historically.

So, to me, it is a simple argument.

Camp A) Feels homosexuals are human and equal citizens
Camp B) Feels homosexuals are human but not equal citizens and not deserving of full rights
Camp C) Feels homosexuals are sub human and definitely not worthy of equal rights

Now, it should be noted that each camp is filled with a broad range of peoples and demographics. There are Christians in each camp, Atheists in each camp, etc

Last point is that I think there are some who aren't honest with themselves in terms of what they think of homosexuals.

You can't see them as people, see them as human, see them as equals and THEN discriminate against them. Sorry, that is logically inconsistent and requires some serious mental gymnastics to achieve...
 
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variant

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I would say the author was being polite, this is about hatred towards Christians.

Carry on with that hyperbolic persecution complex.

From the piece:

For too long our “love the sinner, hate the sin” mantra has been a clanging gong. When we fear having a law force us to serve someone, I think it is safe to say we don’t love them.

Here here.
 
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Booko

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(on what basis do we now exclude inappropriate behavior with animals and incest?).

An inability for one party to grant consent. There, that was easy.

The tougher question is why we do not allow plural marriage.

For some reason the slippery slope of inappropriate behavior with animals and incest always comes out quickly when same sex marriage is discussed, but not polygamy, where consent can actually be given.

Why is that?
 
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CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN

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I would say the author was being polite, this is about hatred towards Christians.

The weird thing is, I feel some Christians are the hateful ones.
 
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