Is the day for a year principle valid?

[fozzy]

Is the day for a year principle valid for prophetic interpretation especially in the books of Daniel and Revelation?

 

[fozzy]

Before we get into the day for a year dilemma we need to ask another equally important question and that is what are the time periods for in the first place? Why did God give us all these prophetic time periods? Were they given to predict the 2nd coming? As strange as that may sound, some to this day still believe that. They have jubilee calendars and charts and go into great detail as to why Jesus will come in 2021 or 2030 or whatever ridiculous date they have come up with. They seem incapable of escaping the errors and mistakes of the past. The time periods were never given to predict the 2nd coming. Jesus himself said when you see all these things come to pass (end-time events) you will know that his coming is near even at the doors. There are many events that have to happen before the 2nd coming. Like the reign of the little horn, the seven trumpets, the mark of the beast and the seven last plagues. All of these things happen first so Jesus will not be coming tomorrow or next month or next year. When the rivers and seas have turned to blood and world is in shambles and the battle of Armageddon is raging we will know that we’re close even at the doors but that’s not today!

So the purpose of the time periods is to show the duration of major events of the last days like the reign of the little horn, the ministry of the two witnesses, the reconstruction of Jerusalem and the temple, the abomination of desolation and the time of trouble with the seven last plagues. Most are not aware of this but there is actually a time period for the time of trouble when the seven last plagues are poured out and that is three and a half years. In Dan. 12 the time of trouble is mentioned and then the question is asked how long till the end of these wonders? And the answer given is there shall be a times, time and a half and all these things shall be finished. So the time of trouble has its own time period and Jesus speaking of the great tribulation which is the same thing said that unless those days would be shortened then no flesh would survive. This final three and half years will be shortened to three years or two and a half no one knows but God but this would be very useful information to those living thru that time. If they know there is a set time period it will strengthen their faith to hold on because with war, famine, disease and death around every corner those will be some hard days.

Hopefully we are beginning to see how useful it would be to know the mechanics of the last days. The time periods in a literal understanding have great value but those same time periods in a day for a year setting where they stretch out over thousands of years are utterly worthless and do nothing but wrest the scriptures. God has actually predicted events to the very day which is much more amazing than predicting something to the year. In the next installment we will be discussing the 2300 days which is roughly six and a half years and this fits very well into an end-time scenario. Also it is impossible to understand Daniel and Revelation without a correct understanding of the beasts. The beasts do not represent ancient kingdoms, they represent fallen angels who will appear one after another in the last days. This is the only way the time periods make any sense in a literal format. Daniel and Revelation are end-time books that were written for the last generation not the rotting corpses of past generations who have long since turned to dust. Too bad so sad, EGW and the pioneers were wrong again. Have they ever gotten anything right?

 

[spybirddave]

I think it is "valid" to consider the YDP in attempting to solve the mysteries of Daniel & Revelation, but nowhere do I find a biblical rule that establishes it as a definite key to
the solutions, particularly as regards Dan.8:14, where the original introduces the idea
of Evenings & Mornings. The context of the chapter reveals a civil power or empire
that is persecuting & attempting to eradicate the Jewish worship of Yahweh. I see
the introduction of a restrictive decree that forbids observing the Daily or evening/
morning consecrational sacrifices, "he will take away the daily". Logic and the Occam`s
Razor principle leads me to believe that the 2300 is a total number of the sacrifices
that "he", the persecuting power would take away before he would be defeated & the
daily sacrificial rounds re-instated.

 

[fozzy]

I think it is "valid" to consider the YDP in attempting to solve the mysteries of Daniel & Revelation, but nowhere do I find a biblical rule that establishes it as a definite key to
the solutions, particularly as regards Dan.8:14, where the original introduces the idea
of Evenings & Mornings. The context of the chapter reveals a civil power or empire
that is persecuting & attempting to eradicate the Jewish worship of Yahweh. I see
the introduction of a restrictive decree that forbids observing the Daily or evening/
morning consecrational sacrifices, "he will take away the daily". Logic and the Occam`s
Razor principle leads me to believe that the 2300 is a total number of the sacrifices
that "he", the persecuting power would take away before he would be defeated & the
daily sacrificial rounds re-instated.

Thank you for your input Dave. In Dan. 8:17 Gabriel says - understand, o son of man, for at the time of the end shall be the vision. Then he goes on to identify the ram as the kings of Media and Persia and the goat as the king of Grecia or Greece. Now the next question we need to ask is did either of these ancient kingdoms exist at the time of the end? And the answer would no. The vision including the ram, goat, horn and trampling of the sanctuary will be for the time of the end or the last days. In Dan. chap. 10 Gabriel is in a battle for 21 days with someone called the prince of Persia and this prince actually prevents Gabriel from coming to Daniel in answer to his prayer. So this prince of Persia is not Cyrus but most likely a fallen angel which completely changes our outlook on who and what the beasts actually are. Satan is referred to as the king of Tyre and Babylon in the scriptures so his subordinate angels most likely have names like the prince of Perisa and the prince of Grecia.

 

[fozzy]

The 2300 days put Adventism on the map with their sanctuary doctrine and cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary. Unfortunately today, Adventism faces an identity crisis where they try to live off the truths of those that came before them. They have no truth of their own and get labeled as legalists and cult members and fanatics when they try to foist their unscriptural ideas on other Christians. These labels are well deserved because if something cannot be supported or defended from the scriptures then it needs to be abandoned. So let’s take a closer look at the 2300 days. First off the correct reading is 2300 evenings and mornings which is the same language from Genesis and the creation account where the evening and morning were the first day, second day and so on. These are days not years and a literal reading is always the most accurate unless a symbol has been specified and there is no symbol here. The Adventist assertion that the subject of the 2300 days is the heavenly sanctuary is actually correct and we will go into that in detail. I try not to always sound like the jaded church member but I can admit when Adventists are right about something. It so rarely happens though that I guess even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes!

The little horn became great even to the host of heaven and it cast down some of the host and stars to the ground. He magnified himself to the prince of the host and by him the daily was taken away and the place of his sanctuary was cast down (Dan. 8:10,11). This little horn is one powerful king! He actually has power and mastery over the angels of heaven. He exalts himself to the prince of the host which would be Jesus and the place of Christ’s sanctuary is cast down. The removal of the daily ministration of Christ is the cause of the defilement to the heavenly sanctuary. And coincidentally there is a separate time period that begins with the removal of the daily and setting up of the abomination of desolation but we will discuss that later. So how could this little horn do these things? It’s plausible that he could have the mastery over angels but never Christ himself. The little horn could never have power over Christ but what he could do is command the world to worship a false Christ in a false temple and by so doing he would remove the daily or high priestly role of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary. The little horn will remove the daily and cause defilement to the heavenly sanctuary by deception.

And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed Dan. 8:14. At the end of these 2300 days the sanctuary will be cleansed from the defilement caused by the little horn. When we look at 1844 was anything cleansed or made right in that year? No, nothing was cleansed and even Adventists have to admit this. The best they can say is that the cleansing began in 1844 and will end at some undetermined time which makes the 2300 days meaningless. In Revelation we are given picture after picture of the heavenly sanctuary with the altar of incense or prayer and then the temple is opened and the ark of the testament is seen and finally God’s glory fills the temple like smoke and the seven last plagues are poured out. When the sanctuary is cleansed the seven last plagues or the wrath of God is poured out and this is an end-time event so the 2300 days would have to pertain to the end-time. The 2300 days are for the entire vision of Dan. 8 including the ram, goat and little horn so this roughly six and a half years will be for the beginning of the end-time and then with the time of trouble scheduled for three and a half years we see that the total end-time period will be roughly ten years.

 

[spybirddave]

hello again fozzy,
i enjoy hearing your ideas about the prophecies of dan & rev. as those have been kind
of a turning point for me in moving away from the slavery of traditionalism in the SDA
church. i pretty much stick to the greek episode with antiochus epiphanes for the little horn of ch. 8 because of the intro to the chapter & the relivance of ch 11 to the
explanation of the angel about the horn. the problem of fitting the whole vision into
end-time events has troubled me also, and i have found a credible explanation in the
apotelismatic fulfillment that Desmond Ford settled on. several significant endings are
revealed in the bible, not just the end-of-world ending though it`s the big daddy of endings. the episode of jewish persecution under antiochus ended his reign pretty
suddenly; the jewish nation ended only several centuries later; the reign of satan &
sin ended when christ hung on the cross, etc.
so i find credible the idea that antiochus was the initial fulfillment & involved the 2300
evening/morning sacrifice interruption, making the numerical part of the prophecy of
no further significance, with a latter-day fulfillment at the end-of-the-world time of
christ`s second coming events bringing the ultimate expression of the prophecy. when
the anti-christ of end times appears to consumate the deception of all believers, or
their annihilation, then will there be the ultimate time of trouble predicted by Jesus.
i should have also pointed out that the evening/morning part of dan 8:14 is NOT the
same hebrew words for the creation evening/morning, at least so i have heard. i am
neither a linguist or theologian so my views are not hard and fast in my mind.

 

[fozzy]

hello again fozzy,
i enjoy hearing your ideas about the prophecies of dan & rev. as those have been kind
of a turning point for me in moving away from the slavery of traditionalism in the SDA
church. i pretty much stick to the greek episode with antiochus epiphanes for the little horn of ch. 8 because of the intro to the chapter & the relivance of ch 11 to the
explanation of the angel about the horn. the problem of fitting the whole vision into
end-time events has troubled me also, and i have found a credible explanation in the
apotelismatic fulfillment that Desmond Ford settled on. several significant endings are
revealed in the bible, not just the end-of-world ending though it`s the big daddy of endings. the episode of jewish persecution under antiochus ended his reign pretty
suddenly; the jewish nation ended only several centuries later; the reign of satan &
sin ended when christ hung on the cross, etc.
so i find credible the idea that antiochus was the initial fulfillment & involved the 2300
evening/morning sacrifice interruption, making the numerical part of the prophecy of
no further significance, with a latter-day fulfillment at the end-of-the-world time of
christ`s second coming events bringing the ultimate expression of the prophecy. when
the anti-christ of end times appears to consumate the deception of all believers, or
their annihilation, then will there be the ultimate time of trouble predicted by Jesus.
i should have also pointed out that the evening/morning part of dan 8:14 is NOT the
same hebrew words for the creation evening/morning, at least so i have heard. i am
neither a linguist or theologian so my views are not hard and fast in my mind.

I have an Englishman's concordance which is nice because it will reference the usages of Hebrew and Greek words as opposed to their English counterparts and the words used for evenings and mornings in Daniel are the same used in the Genesis creation account. Even if this were a reference to the morning and evening sacrifice it would still work out to 2300 days seeing the daily sacrifice was offered twice every day or the perpetual sacrifice. I never studied Des Ford that much because he was so controversial but I do remember his take on the 2300 days was different than the traditional Adventist view. I have to rule out Antiochus Epiphanes as the little horn because he lived and died before Christ who spoke of the abomination of desolation as future from his day. And a careful reading of the story does show that the temple defiled is the one in heaven not an earthly temple. Adventists have a piece meal understanding of prophecy but I try to see how everything is connected with one chapter building on the next. Daniel 7 presents a judgment scene in heaven and 8 and 9 build upon that.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

the best work i have read on this is Dr Clerance Hewitt, and Advent Christian, in the Seer of Daniel.

 

[fozzy]

The next time period that we touched on briefly is the 1290 day prophecy. This prophecy begins with the removal of the daily by the little horn and ends with the setting up of the abomination of desolation. The final king of the north does the same things as the little horn so it is very likely they are the same entity. It seems there are many who just despise the sanctuary doctrine no matter how it is presented from Daniel. Personally, I despise the date 1844 because nothing happened in 1844 except a whole lot of people were wrong about a whole lot of things. But the sanctuary doctrine behind 1844 is actually biblical starting with Daniel 7 where a judgment scene is presented in heaven during the three and half year reign of the little horn. And then in Daniel 8 this same little horn exalts himself to the prince of heaven and the place of his sanctuary is cast down. There is no doubt that this is referring to the heavenly sanctuary because even in Revelation 13 when the beast is fully formed and the little horn becomes the spokesman it says - And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven Rev. 13:6. The little horn definitely has a problem with the things that are taking place in the heavenly tabernacle.

The little horn will remove the daily sacrifice. The daily or continual offering was from the OT sanctuary service where a lamb was offered every morning and evening as a perpetual sacrifice. This was the basis of all other sacrifice and offering and most truly represents Christ the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. The removal of the daily will deal directly with Christ’s high priestly role in the heavenly sanctuary. The little horn could never physically remove Christ from heaven but he doesn’t need to because when Satan comes at the end of time to impersonate Christ it will appear that Christ has come to earth and the whole world believe that. They will think that Christ has come to usher in his 1000 year reign of the throne of David. All the prayer and worship that would normally ascend up to heaven as a sweet savor will be re-directed to and accepted by Satan the antichrist. The daily ministration of Christ for all intents and purposes will be removed and this will begin the 1290 days that will end with the abomination of desolation.

Jesus said in the Olivet discourse that when the abomination of desolation stands in the holy place it will be a sign to flee Judea and Jerusalem. So whereas the beginning of the prophecy deals with the heavenly sanctuary, the end will deal primarily with an earthly temple that will be reconstructed in the last days. Paul says the same thing is 2nd Thess. where the man of sin will sit in the temple of God and show himself to be God. This temple is not a church and is the same word used all throughout the NT in reference to the Jewish temple. This abomination will usher in the seven last plagues which occur just after the glory of God fills the heavenly tabernacle like smoke. When Solomon dedicated the first temple there is a record of the Glory of God filling the temple like smoke so that no priests could minister in the temple 2Chron. 5:14, 1Kings 8:11. This happened in the seventh month when the ark of the covenant was brought from the city of David to the most holy of the new temple. While there is no record of Yom Kippur being kept at the dedication of the temple it is noteworthy that the glory of God filled the temple when it should have occurred. We would expect that the patterns and types of the earthly temple will be followed by the heavenly. Which leads us into our next time period that we will discuss - the seventy weeks. The commandment that goes forth to restore and rebuild Jerusalem and the temple will be issued by the antichrist making the ones issued by Cyrus, Darius and Artaxerxes historically irrelevant.

 

[fozzy]

The 70 week prophecy does not use the day for a year principle per se but employs a week of year’s principle which is the crazy uncle of the family. This prophecy has been so butchered by Jewish and Christian scholars alike that we need to take our time and go thru it piece by piece. The first point of contention is the word week which is ‘shabuwa’ and has been misused and misapplied into a week of years by nearly all scholars across the board. This word was used throughout the OT in reference to the feast of weeks or Pentecost which were literal seven day weeks not some mythical day/year conversion. Also Daniel uses this exact word in chap. 10 where he fasted for three full weeks (Dan. 10:2). We know that Daniel did not fast for 21 years so once again the literal reading is the most accurate. From the going forth of the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the prince shall be 69 weeks. The next area that we want to discuss is Messiah the prince which is probably the worst translation in all of scripture.

The word for Messiah is ‘mashiyach’ and is used 41 times in scripture and in every occurrence except for Daniel it is translated as anointed. Even in my second favorite translation (Young’s literal translation) it is rendered as ‘Messiah the leader’. So the correct translation should be the anointed prince or leader. Questioning this verse is not meant in any way to imply that Jesus is not the Messiah because he is but the anointed prince of verses 25 & 26 is most likely one of the two anointed ones or witnesses of Rev. 11 who are both killed in the midst of the week and whose bodies lie in the streets for three and a half days. The prophecy of the two witnesses has been so badly interpreted by historicists that they relegate it to church history and see none of the parallels between the two. Both prophecies have something occurring in the middle of the final week and both take place in Jerusalem. Also in Daniel 11 the prince of the covenant is mentioned who is the same person and it is a holy covenant so the Dispensational ideas of this being a covenant between Israel and the antichrist are completely wrong. When we begin to understand that Jerusalem and the temple will be reconstructed in the last days and the anointed prince is the leader of the two witnesses it completely changes our outlook on apocalyptic prophecy.

So what is this holy covenant that the two witnesses will confirm with many in the final week of human probation? It is the new or everlasting covenant that was first given by Christ and then later went everywhere after Pentecost. This covenant has been perverted and sapped of its power and is largely unrecognizable today. Babylon the great harlot which is identified as Jerusalem and the old covenant by the scriptures has perverted the gospel into a covenant of works where we have to do this good deed or keep this holy day or stay away from some bad thing and our whole experience is one of merit where we have to earn our standing with God. The reason why the ten commandment law was abandoned by the early Church is for this very reason. The law teaches us to look to ourselves and our works and righteousness and Christ and his spotless righteousness becomes an afterthought. Paul in the book of Galatians just after naming Hagar (aka Babylon) as Jerusalem and the old covenant said those who seek to be justified by the works of the law are fallen from grace. Babylon has fallen from grace and for anyone living in the 21st century, Rome or Catholicism is not taking control of the world - Israel is. Israel is in the news every day and has the entire Protestant world bowing down to them. Try saying anything bad about Israel and see what happens - you’ll get run out of town on a rail! The whole world is heading into Babylon and only those who understand the everlasting gospel will be protected from her sorcery.

 

[fatherjimparker]

Is the day for a year principle valid for prophetic interpretation especially in the books of Daniel and Revelation?

No.

How about: Psa 90:4 "A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night."? A "watch" is four hours. That would make a year SIX thousand years. What does that do to the calculation of the date of when Jesus returns???

The idea that a literary device (an extended metaphor) should be taken literally is the king of foolishness that led the New Advent people ("Millerites" in the USA) to be sure that Jesus was going to return in 1843. And when he didn't show up they recalculated and came up with 1844. And when Jesus missed that bus too, William Miller wisely said, that they were wrong to attempt to set dates.

The sections of Daniel and most of Revelation where such references are found are highly symbolic, apocalyptic visions. When a preacher starts affirming that he knows exactly what they mean......change the channel (Sponge Bob would be better) or the church. He's tickling your ears to get a bigger collection.

Imho.....