Is the creation debate over?

[jhwatts]

Not a difficult concept. The earth was created 6000 years ago. Why is that so difficult to just accept? That is what the Bible plainly says.

The Bible does not plainly say 6000 years anywhere. You reaching to fit your belief narrative.

 

[Platte]

Not a difficult concept. The earth was created 6000 years ago. Why is that so difficult to just accept? That is what the Bible plainly says.

The Bible does not plainly say 6000 years anywhere. You reaching to fit your belief narrative.

I’m reaching? Are you saying the Bible doesn’t give a detailed chronology? That chronology is clear. The Bible is a belief narrative? Interesting but I guess I can go with that

 

[jameslouise]

Genesis 2:4 to Genesis 4:26 is what is in the Gap after Genesis 1:1.

That means that Adam was created in the 'gap' and not on day 6 then? Animals and birds are also in the 'gap' and not on days 4 and 5 then?

You need to READ what I posted, because I DO NOT AGREE WITH MAN'S PSEUDO-SCIENCE about evolution. I believe in God's CREATION.

Yeh agree evolution is pseudo science but data is not, why are there no human fossils before the Cenozoic then?

You answered the question ... apparently you would fit all of them into the GAP (although that is potentially problematic for Neanderthal Fossils that were contemporary with modern people)

As a dentist who has seen thousands of mouths over the years, when i look at neanderthal teeth i cannot tell the difference to humans. All so called neanderthal dental traits i have seen and still see today. But never all in one mouth. But more importantly, they would pass my check ups, there is nothing wrong with their teeth, if anything they are more robust than today. this meaning there was no evolutionary benefit/evolutionary pressure for them to evolve anyway?

I personally think Genesis 1 is a recreation and I have many reasons for that. I would suggest reading Psalms 104.

Absolutely I believe Psalm 104:7 At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away' is the same event as Genesis 1:9. Noah's flood is a slow dissipation, this flood is removed rapidly.

 

[jameslouise]

So was T-Rex on the Ark with Noah?

No

What is the Speed of Light? How far away is the nearest Galaxy? How long did it take the light from that Galaxy to reach Earth? How long ago did God create the "heavens"?

VSL (variable speed of light) answers all your concerns here. Brilliantly revealed by Barry Setterfield, chcek out his youtube videos.

Since you mentioned the Fossil record, where does "homo hablis" and "homo erectus" and "homo neanderthanensis" fit with "homo sapiens" and the story of Adam through Abraham?

They nearly all fit in between Adam and Noah. No problem there.

[Personally, I think the mistake is treating Genesis as a Planetology or Biology Text Book.

Genesis and the Bible explain the cosmos and its origin precisely, also every fossil layer and also biological similarity throughout the fossil record. So I disagree. Genesis 1 and 2 are a work of astonishing beauty and also describe the new testament in detail. Awesome.

 

[jameslouise]

each having their own God

More than 1 God? You serious?

 

[Twin_niwT]

More than 1 God? You serious?

That's not what I said! Be more careful when you reply to people.....you lazily forgot the (God and god) part. There is only one God, God the Father who is Christ's Father. Father god is not God. Do not argue this, it was told to me directly through Divine Revelation, they are Christ's own words.

 

[jhwatts]

That means that Adam was created in the 'gap' and not on day 6 then? Animals and birds are also in the 'gap' and not on days 4 and 5 then?

Yes. I believe there are two Adams. One is fallen and the other is not.

The fact of the matter is and that there is no doubt (scholars know this) that pieces of the Genesis creation story have been taken directly from the Akkadian Atra-Hasis. This is a academic fact. In the Atra-Hasis there are two groups of made humans. One group is destroyed by a flood(A few escape.) These are made from blood (See John 1:4, Genesis 9:6, Revelation 13:8, He does live in my heart. ) and clay(dust of the earth) in the story. (Genesis 1:1, Genesis 2:4 - Genesis 4:26). After the flood a second Adam is made and new people(Genesis 1:2 - Genesis 2:3, Genesis 5) . When you look at and study pre-Israelite cultures you will understand that they did not think the earth was created in 7 days. The roots of that belief system did not believe that a 7 day creation took place. This really is simply not a thing. This is a modern concoction. If you was to read the Bible through the eyes of a person from the time it was written you would not think it was created in 7 days.

By the way, the first group of humans was perfect, didn't age, supper intelligent, super spiritual, etc. and their world was destroyed, it was lost.

Christ came to save that which was lost.

Again, this is just my opinion.

 

[Platte]

Yes. I believe there are two Adams. One is fallen and the other is not.

The fact of the matter is and that there is no doubt (scholars know this) that pieces of the Genesis creation story have been taken directly from the Akkadian Atra-Hasis. This is a academic fact. In the Atra-Hasis there are two groups of made humans. One group is destroyed by a flood(A few escape.) These are made from blood (See John 1:4, Genesis 9:6, Revelation 13:8, He does live in my heart. ) and clay(dust of the earth) in the story. (Genesis 1:1, Genesis 2:4 - Genesis 4:26). After the flood a second Adam is made and new people(Genesis 1:2 - Genesis 2:3, Genesis 5) . When you look at and study pre-Israelite cultures you will understand that they did not think the earth was created in 7 days. The roots of that belief system did not believe that a 7 day creation took place. This really is simply not a thing. This is a modern concoction. If you was to read the Bible through the eyes of a person from the time it was written you would not think it was created in 7 days.

By the way, the first group of humans was perfect, didn't age, supper intelligent, super spiritual, etc. and their world was destroyed, it was lost.

Christ came to save that which was lost.

Again, this is just my opinion.

Getting away from your opinion for a minute. Do you agree that the Bible says the earth was created in 6 days?

 

[jhwatts]

Getting away from your opinion for a minute. Do you agree that the Bible says the earth was created in 6 days?

Nope. Not at all.

If you really want to get into weeds about things, look at Revelation 9:11 and you see that Apollyon is a king over the scorpion men(Revelation 9:3). Apollyon is the Greek sun god Apollo. If you look in the Akkadian mythos you will find a sun god (Shamash) who just like Apollo has a twin sister and who rules over the Aqrabuamelu. These are the scorpion men. Google Aqrabuamelu and you will see what they looked like. That being said, the Akkadian mythos run all the way through the Bible, start to finish. Just like the kings in Revelation 17 are the antideluvian kings in the Sumerian Kings List and these kings ruled for 250,000 years. These kings ruled before the foundation of the world. They ruled the kingdom that was lost.

Christ of course was at its center (The high king.). See Ezekiel 28 and Psalms 104:3. His throne was in the midst of the sea. Seems strange. There is a reason He is so often associated with water. Calming the sea, walking on water, turning fish into bread, and water into wine.

 

[Platte]

Nope. Not at all.

If you really want to get into weeds about things, look at Revelation 9:11 and you see that Apollyon is a king over the scorpion men(Revelation 9:3). Apollyon is the Greek sun god Apollo. If you look in the Akkadian mythos you will find a sun god (Shamash) who just like Apollo has a twin sister and who rules over the Aqrabuamelu. These are the scorpion men. Google Aqrabuamelu and you will see what they looked like. That being said, the Akkadian mythos run all the way through the Bible, start to finish. Just like the kings in Revelation 17 are the antideluvian kings in the Sumerian Kings List and these kings ruled for 250,000 years. These kings ruled before the foundation of the world. They ruled the kingdom that was lost.

Christ of course was at its center (The high king.). See Ezekiel 28 and Psalms 104:3. His throne was in the midst of the sea. Seems strange. There is a reason He is so often associated with water. Calming the sea, walking on water, turning fish into bread, and water into wine.

So the Bible doesnt say?: "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it."

 

[jhwatts]

So the Bible doesnt say?: "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it."

I see your point but would argue that Exodus 20:11 is speaking directly about the second creation and again made here is really remake.

But also if you are arguing that then looking at Genesis 1:28, man is being told replenish the earth. Why would God tell him to replenish the earth if something did not previously exist there?

Also, look at Genesis 2:14. We see the mention of the nation Assyria. There are plenty of other places in the Bible that describes visitors from Assyria to Eden in the Bible. (Ezekiel 31, Isaiah 14, and Ezekiel 28). The Bible makes it clear that Assyria was populated during the time of Eden. Planet earth during the time of Eden had many many inhabitants. Look at Genesis 4:17.

 

[Platte]

I see your point but would argue that Exodus 20:11 is speaking directly about the second creation and again made here is really remake.

But also if you are arguing that then looking at Genesis 1:28, man is being told replenish the earth. Why would God tell him to replenish the earth if something did not previously exist there?

Also, look at Genesis 2:14. We see the mention of the nation Assyria. There are plenty of other places in the Bible that describes visitors from Assyria to Eden in the Bible. (Ezekiel 31, Isaiah 14, and Ezekiel 28). The Bible makes it clear that Assyria was populated during the time of Eden. Planet earth during the time of Eden had many many inhabitants. Look at Genesis 4:17.

Context is everything in language - I'm sure you know that. The context of Exodus 20:11 is keeping the Sabbath Day holy....using creation as an example of that is not a recreation of a second creation.
The Bible clearly states the earth was created in 6 days...6000 years ago. You can have a different opinion than that but the Bible gives a description of what a day is (a morning and and evening) and the Bible gives an amazing chronology up to the time of Jesus.
The Bible doesnt give all the details of everything...and instead of trying to circumvent the details that are given - fill your time slots where details are not given....for example. How long did Adam and Eve live in the garden before they sinned? Does the Bible say that Eve didn't have children before the sin? those are the areas where your other observations may come to play.

But don't lose the importance of what the Bible DOES say...creation took 6 days and was 6000 years ago.

 

[jhwatts]

Context is everything in language - I'm sure you know that. The context of Exodus 20:11 is keeping the Sabbath Day holy....using creation as an example of that is not a recreation of a second creation.
The Bible clearly states the earth was created in 6 days...6000 years ago. You can have a different opinion than that but the Bible gives a description of what a day is (a morning and and evening) and the Bible gives an amazing chronology up to the time of Jesus.
The Bible doesnt give all the details of everything...and instead of trying to circumvent the details that are given - fill your time slots where details are not given....for example. How long did Adam and Eve live in the garden before they sinned? Does the Bible say that Eve didn't have children before the sin? those are the areas where your other observations may come to play.

But don't lose the importance of what the Bible DOES say...creation took 6 days and was 6000 years ago.

Again, It does not say that but regardless of your interpretation those at the time of its authorship did not think that way and would not have written it so that it would be interpreted or translated that way. People who study these things know that the people who lived in the time that the content of Genesis was made would have never said the earth was created in 7 days. As I said earlier a seven day creation is a modern idea and archeological and historically not valid.

 

[Platte]

Again, It does not say that but regardless of your interpretation those at the time of its authorship did not think that way and would not have written it so that it would be interpreted or translated that way. People who study these things know that the people who lived in the time that the content of Genesis was made would have never said the earth was created in 7 days. As I said earlier a seven day creation is a modern idea and archeological and historically not valid.

It is Biblical. Creation was 6 days and on the 7th day God rested. Chronology of the Bible clearly shows 6000 years. Not how I interpret. It’s what the Bible says

 

[jhwatts]

It is Biblical. Creation was 6 days and on the 7th day God rested. Chronology of the Bible clearly shows 6000 years. Not how I interpret. It’s what the Bible says

Genesis is not written chronologically anyways. Read Genesis 10:31 and then read Genesis 11:1. Things happened in Genesis 10:31 after Genesis 11. The same goes for the things in Genesis 2 and 3 happened before Genesis 1.

Also, the Bible does not clearly show the earth was created 6000 years ago. Determine that number based on what the Bible clearly say in Genesis 4 and not Genesis 5. You cant because they are no ages. The people in Genesis 4 live deep in the earths past. The ones in Genesis 5 correspond to the 6000 years.

They are not the same.

 

[Platte]

Genesis is not written chronologically anyways. Read Genesis 10:31 and then read Genesis 11:1. Things happened in Genesis 10:31 after Genesis 11. The same goes for the things in Genesis 2 and 3 happened before Genesis 1.

Also, the Bible does not clearly show the earth was created 6000 years ago. Determine that number based on what the Bible clearly say in Genesis 4 and not Genesis 5. You cant because they are no ages. The people in Genesis 4 live deep in the earths past. The ones in Genesis 5 correspond to the 6000 years.

They are not the same.

2 Adams. Both with sons named Seth. Ok got it.

 

[Job 33:6]

I personally think Genesis 1 is a recreation and I have many reasons for that. I would suggest reading Psalms 104. It is just a different perspective on Genesis 1. Psalms104 makes more sense as a recreation rather than a creation. Here a few side by side comparisons between the two.


Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Psalms 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
Psalms 104:6 Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.

Genesis 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
Psalms 104: (7-9) At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away. 8 They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them. 9 Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.

Genesis 1: (11-12) 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Psalms 104:14 He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;

Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Psalms 104:19 He appointed the moon for seasons: the sun knoweth his going down.


Genesis is not always written chronologically, a person can see it by first reading Genesis 10:31 and then read Genesis 11:1. Ask yourself what is wrong with this picture? In short, the end of Genesis 10 has people on earth with different languages while the beginning of Genesis 11 shows them all having the same language. Is this a contraction or a lack of understanding of how to sometimes read Genesis. The perceived contradiction is from not understanding how the author presented details for important events. Look at Genesis 10: (8-10), you will find the details for this event over in Genesis 11: (1-9). We see the same thing with Genesis 1:1, the detail for this event begins in Genesis 2:4 and Goes through Genesis 4:26. This is the Eden creation. The earth is flooded and then we see the deep of Genesis 1:2 and the earth is remade. This is why light Genesis 1:3 existed before the moon and sun was revealed and man is told to replenish the planet.

Again, the reader should now go to Genesis 1:1 and read then skip to Genesis 2:4 and read to the end of Genesis 4:26. Return to Genesis 1:3 then read to Genesis 2:3 and then read all of Genesis 5.

Genesis 2:4 to Genesis 4:26 is what is in the Gap after Genesis 1:1.

Here is something interesting, read Genesis 3:22 and now go to Genesis 4 and find the the ages of those and their progeny that was expelled from the garden. The people in Genesis 4 are different from those in Genesis 5. Those in Genesis 5 age.

Just because the Genesis flood is a reflection of the original creation, does not mean that the original creation was a reflection of a prior creation.

 

[Job 33:6]

It is Biblical. Creation was 6 days and on the 7th day God rested. Chronology of the Bible clearly shows 6000 years. Not how I interpret. It’s what the Bible says

Platte, bara, the Hebrew word for "create" in the Bible, does not mean ex nihilo. That's kind of the crux of the dispute here. To say that earth was created ex nihilo, is not the same as saying that earth was created ex materia.

To be fair, the number 7 is also used excessively throughout the Bible to refer to the figurative concept of completion and fullness. So saying that earth was created in 7 days isn't any more literal than Jesus telling Peter to forgive people 70*7 times, or Solomons temple being created in 7 years on the 7th month with a 7 day feast and 7 day priest inauguration.

That's just how the Bible communicates completion.

Same with the number 40 in the Bible. It rained for 40 days and 40 nights, the Israelites wander the deserts for 40 days and 40 nights etc.

These are figurative verses and number in the Bible, not literal.

Then I lay prostrate before the Lord as before, forty days and forty nights; I neither ate bread nor drank water, because of all the sin you had committed, provoking the Lord by doing what was evil in his sight.
Deuteronomy 9:18 NRSV

Throughout the forty days and forty nights that I lay prostrate before the Lord when the Lord intended to destroy you,
Deuteronomy 9:25 NRSV

here Moses said that he didn't eat or drink and stayed in prayer for 40 days and 40 nights.

some cases are obviously figurative, others are more subtle. But that's just how the Bible is written, and the 7 days of creation in Genesis are no different.

 

[jhwatts]

Just because the Genesis flood is a reflection of the original creation, does not mean that the original creation was a reflection of a prior creation.

I wouldn't say it is a reflection of either but what is interesting is the first creation (Genesis 1:1, Genesis 2:4 through Genesis 4 : (1-26) has a constant theme through out it. It is the breath of life. The first creation is the breath of life creation. The second creation, the re-creation (Genesis 1:2 through Genesis 2:3, and Genesis 5 : (1-32) )has a constant them through out it of being after His kind. It is the His kind creation. If you look at

Genesis 7: (13-14) In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah’s wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark; 14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

You will see that on the same day the ones from the His kind creation enters the ark. The second creation enters the ark all on the same day.

Now if you look at Genesis 7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

Now the the ones from the first creation enters the ark on a different day than the ones from the second creation. The breath of life creation entered the ark on a different day. This is a consistent theme throughout the flood. Both of the creations are kept separate.


As a matter of fact the first creation (The breath of life creation.), the creation with fallen Adam is the reason for the flood.

Genesis 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. 18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons’ wives with thee.

The convenant in verse 17 was made with the His kind creation. The 7 day creation, the recreation. This is the creation from 11000 years ago.

This separation of creations throughout the flood is no coincidence.

 

[Davy]

I did read what you posted.
I was not suggesting that you believed in evolution, merely that dinosaurs existed (their fossils are real and not part of a conspiracy theory) and that the hominid fossils also exist (they are real and not part of a conspiracy theory) and sought how you fit them into Genesis.

You answered the question ... apparently you would fit all of them into the GAP (although that is potentially problematic for Neanderthal Fossils that were contemporary with modern people).

Now the ideas from the Smithsonian, etc., about human fossil remains (hominid) being very ancient, that's just a theory from evolution. The only human-like bones found back to the time of the dinosaurs are those of apes. And some of their scientists even admitted they fudged on carbon dating because they didn't really understand how to do the method. No human bones found with dinosaur bones.

In places like Glenrose, Tx, where there's fossilized human footprints on top of dinosaur footprints, and both dated to have been created at the same time, that ends any debate about the theory of evolution, because the human footprint is shaped like one made today. But... it does suggest that humans existed 65 million years ago when scientists have dated the time of the dinosaurs, yet that is really theory like evolution.

Secularist unbelievers, nor many of my Christian brethren, do not understand that there was a previous world prior to Genesis 1:2, and in that time for 'man' it was an angelic body existence upon this earth, not one in the flesh.