faroukfarouk
Fading curmudgeon
Apostasy is a Biblical term.Then the thing to do would be to avoid using the word apostate when you mean something else.
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Apostasy is a Biblical term.Then the thing to do would be to avoid using the word apostate when you mean something else.
I had a discussion with a fellow brother about the concept of backsliding based on the scripture 1 John 2:19.
My stance is more along the lines of John 3:3, where once you are born again, you can't be unborn. If you're truly a believer, you can't unbelieve.
People do sin, but its hard to see "once saved always save" hold up if a believer is willfully sinning, which is the concept of back-sliding. That you can go through a period of time that you are not following God's Word and still be considered a Christian because you once accepted God before.
The example of David is faulty support for once saved always saved. David indeed committed grievous sins but the critical factor is that he repented of those specific sins and there is no scriptural evidence that he ever engaged in those sins again. Contrast David's example of repentance with a believer who is engaged in habitual adultery with no evidence of repentance; is that backslidden believer still forgiven and saved? Everyone sins and no one is without sin according to 1 John 1:8,10. Note that 1 Jn 1:7 promises that the cleansing blood of Jesus is only efficacious to those believers who are "walking in the light" as that verse begins with the word "IF"which makes this a conditional statement. IF WE WALK IN THE LIGHT, as indicated by a lifestyle of general obedience to God, when we do occasionally sin, we repent and are assured of God's forgiveness. On the other hand if a believer's lifestyle is generally marked by disobedience, he/she walks in darkness and does not even have fellowship with God (1 Jn 1:6). Rom 8:13 states that that those brethren who are living according to the flesh (backsliding) must die.I had a discussion with a fellow brother about the concept of backsliding based on the scripture 1 John 2:19. His stance is a "once saved only save", where once you believe, the most you can do is back slide. My stance is more along the lines of John 3:3, where once you are born again, you can't be unborn. If you're truly a believer, you can't unbelieve.
The brother bought up David as an example, someone who deeply disregarded God's commands, and willfully sinned. But yet David was a man after God's own heart.
People do sin, but its hard to see "once saved always save" hold up if a believer is willfully sinning, which is the concept of back-sliding. That you can go through a period of time that you are not following God's Word and still be considered a Christian because you once accepted God before.
But I wanna hear your thoughts on this, I figured it may be a sticky topic.
Jeremiah 3:22I had a discussion with a fellow brother about the concept of backsliding based on the scripture 1 John 2:19. His stance is a "once saved only save", where once you believe, the most you can do is back slide. My stance is more along the lines of John 3:3, where once you are born again, you can't be unborn. If you're truly a believer, you can't unbelieve.
The brother bought up David as an example, someone who deeply disregarded God's commands, and willfully sinned. But yet David was a man after God's own heart.
People do sin, but its hard to see "once saved always save" hold up if a believer is willfully sinning, which is the concept of back-sliding. That you can go through a period of time that you are not following God's Word and still be considered a Christian because you once accepted God before.
But I wanna hear your thoughts on this, I figured it may be a sticky topic.
Do you think David stop believing?The example of David is faulty support for once saved always saved. David indeed committed grievous sins but the critical factor is that he repented of those specific sins and there is no scriptural evidence that he ever engaged in those sins again. Contrast David's example of repentance with a believer who is engaged in habitual adultery with no evidence of repentance; is that believer still forgiven and saved? Everyone sins and no one is without sin according to 1 John 1:8,10. Note that 1 Jn 1:7 promises that the cleansing blood of Jesus is only efficacious to those believers who are "walking in the light" as that verse begins with the word "IF"which makes this a conditional statement. IF WE WALK IN THE LIGHT, as indicated by a lifestyle of general obedience to God, when we do occasionally sin, we repent and are assured of God's forgiveness. On the other hand if a believer's lifestyle is generally marked by disobedience, he/she walks in darkness and does not even have fellowship with God (1 Jn 1:6). Rom 8:13 states that that those brethren who are living according to the flesh (backsliding) must die.
True believers can indeed "unbelieve," or no longer believe. That is why the Greek verb tenses in Jn 3:16 are structured in the present tense; i.e. "believing" - that whoever is believing in Him should not perish but have eternal life. Continuing in belief is required for eternal life. Believers can turn aside to follow Satan (1 Tim 5:15) or choose to follow another gospel (Gal 1:6) and in doing, they revert back to becoming unbelievers. Unless they repent and turn back to God, they die in their sin/unbelief.
Unsure what you mean by unbelieving? I don't read any scriptures which indicate that David stopped believing in God. However when he realized his sin, with contrite heart he repented of his sins and asked for God's forgiveness.Do you think David stop believing?
I was just wondering if you thought that David stopped believing for those months between his sin and his repentance, which came about at that time only because God sent Nathan to convict him.Unsure what you mean by unbelieving? I don't read any scriptures which indicate that David stopped believing in God. However when he realized his sin, with contrite heart he repented of his sins and asked for God's forgiveness.
I had a discussion with a fellow brother about the concept of backsliding based on the scripture 1 John 2:19. His stance is a "once saved only save", where once you believe, the most you can do is back slide. My stance is more along the lines of John 3:3, where once you are born again, you can't be unborn. If you're truly a believer, you can't unbelieve.
The brother bought up David as an example, someone who deeply disregarded God's commands, and willfully sinned. But yet David was a man after God's own heart.
People do sin, but its hard to see "once saved always save" hold up if a believer is willfully sinning, which is the concept of back-sliding. That you can go through a period of time that you are not following God's Word and still be considered a Christian because you once accepted God before.
But I wanna hear your thoughts on this, I figured it may be a sticky topic.
Just my opinion - don't know David's frame of mind regarding his sin prior to Nathan. However, we know that he was convicted of his own sin after Nathan's confrontation. We know that he repented and as far as we know he never repeated those sins. Thus the main point is David sinned and was forgiven but he did not engage in habitual sin.I was just wondering if you thought that David stopped believing for those months between his sin and his repentance, which came about at that time only because God sent Nathan to convict him.
There is nothing powerful in temptation, let's stop giving unnecessary praise to things that aren't worth it.Temptation can be very powerful. I don't know if you can say that people giving into temptation are willfully sinning. Even so, I don't think we enter heaven till we repent of our sin.
There is nothing powerful in temptation, let's stop giving unnecessary praise to things that aren't worth it.
Just to add to your comment as I don't think anyone would disagree that the prodigal was a backslider. However also notice that when Jesus told this parable he repeated something about the prodigal twice and when Jesus repeats something we know that he stressing an important point or even his main point of the parable. In Luke 15 in both verses 24 and 32 the Father states that his son was dead and is alive AGAIN. We know that the prodigal didn't physically die so "dead" must mean spiritual death. When the prodigal decided to live a life of sin and disobedience he became spiritually dead. When a person becomes a child of God and is regenerated by the Holy Spirit, he is made alive in Christ. The only way someone can be made alive AGAIN is for a believer who is made alive in Christ (first time) to engage in habitual sin as did the prodigal, thus becoming spiritually dead. When he truly repents and returns to the Father, like the prodigal, he is forgiven and made alive AGAIN (second time). If a backsliding believer does not repent and return back to the Father, he remains spiritually dead.I think of the parable in Luke 15 that Jesus told of the Prodigal Son. He was in his Father's house and asked for his inheritance then squandered it all. He came back to his Father and repented of his sins, and He welcomed the son back with open arms...
When I think of this parable, I think of a true Christian backsliding. Otherwise the son wouldn't have had any inheritance...or even called a son to begin with.
Romans 7:15I had a discussion with a fellow brother about the concept of backsliding based on the scripture 1 John 2:19. His stance is a "once saved only save", where once you believe, the most you can do is back slide. My stance is more along the lines of John 3:3, where once you are born again, you can't be unborn. If you're truly a believer, you can't unbelieve.
The brother bought up David as an example, someone who deeply disregarded God's commands, and willfully sinned. But yet David was a man after God's own heart.
People do sin, but its hard to see "once saved always save" hold up if a believer is willfully sinning, which is the concept of back-sliding. That you can go through a period of time that you are not following God's Word and still be considered a Christian because you once accepted God before.
But I wanna hear your thoughts on this, I figured it may be a sticky topic.
Did Judas backslide? What about Lucifer and his followers in heaven and on earth?I had a discussion with a fellow brother about the concept of backsliding based on the scripture 1 John 2:19. His stance is a "once saved only save", where once you believe, the most you can do is back slide. My stance is more along the lines of John 3:3, where once you are born again, you can't be unborn. If you're truly a believer, you can't unbelieve.
The brother bought up David as an example, someone who deeply disregarded God's commands, and willfully sinned. But yet David was a man after God's own heart.
People do sin, but its hard to see "once saved always save" hold up if a believer is willfully sinning, which is the concept of back-sliding. That you can go through a period of time that you are not following God's Word and still be considered a Christian because you once accepted God before.
But I wanna hear your thoughts on this, I figured it may be a sticky topic.