Is the bible's portrayal of hell, literal?

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT ON

After careful review staff has determined though consensus that this thread should be moved
to Unorthodox Theology due to discussion including Annihilationism.
This thread has been moved from Non Denomination forum to Unorthodox Theology
for the following reason:


The site Statement of Faith is for the entire site. It includes:

Discussions about Nicene and Trinitarian beliefs may take place in the Christian-Only forums, all discussions regarding non-Nicene and non-Trinitarian topics will take place in Unorthodox Theology. Those topics include (but are not limited to)
● Universalism
● Open Theism
● Full Preterism
● Trinitarianism
● Annihilationism
● Masonry
● discussions related to unorthodox Christian religions

It takes precedence over the whole site.


The Statement of Faith for the Nondenominational forum is an incomplete description of Nondenominational members and beliefs here. It is not okay to post non-Nicene beliefs here.

MOD HAT OFF

 

[TheMightyTurtle]

Full facepalm. So all that I have to do to get a thread moved is accuse someone of something that goes against the particular denomination's SoF? This makes me wonder if the modes actually read the threads, or if they simply scan them for "buzz words."

 

[dollarsbill]

Definitely literal!

Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Xpistis sopheiaX]

MOD HAT ON

After careful review staff has determined though consensus that this thread should be moved
to Unorthodox Theology due to discussion including Annihilationism.
This thread has been moved from Non Denomination forum to Unorthodox Theology

This part of the forum seems like it is just the garbage can for the rest of the website

 

[Timothew]

MOD HAT ON

After careful review staff has determined though consensus that this thread should be moved
to Unorthodox Theology due to discussion including Annihilationism.
This thread has been moved from Non Denomination forum to Unorthodox Theology
for the following reason:


The site Statement of Faith is for the entire site. It includes:



It takes precedence over the whole site.


The Statement of Faith for the Nondenominational forum is an incomplete description of Nondenominational members and beliefs here. It is not okay to post non-Nicene beliefs here.

MOD HAT OFF

Annihilationism IS NOT Non Nicene. I recommend that you read the Nicene Creed. There is nothing in the creed about burning alive in Hell forever when a person is dead. I particularly urge you to read this clause, "I look for the resurrection of the dead." Nicene belief is that we have eternal life by being resurrected to life. NOT that everyone is inherently immortal and will spend eternity in heaven or hell.

Your personal beliefs are affecting your actions as a moderator and this needs to stop.

 

[Timothew]

This part of the forum seems like it is just the garbage can for the rest of the website

They throw out the baby with the bathwater. They throw away the truth because it disagrees with their own personal dogmas.

 

[he-man]

Jesus said it is eternal fire:Matthew 25:41
It is a place of eternal conscious torment.

Now where could that false belief of torture have come from? Or the mythological Satan?

The Satan doctrine is one of the most deceptive and corrupt doctrines to ever enter Christendom, and which has been embraced and promoted by false teachers for thousands of years.

Much "Satanic" lore does not originate from actual Satanists, but from Christians. Best-known would be the medieval folklore and theology surrounding demons and witches.

A judge named Minos receives the dead from Hermes Psykhogogos (Leader of the Souls), and sentences the most wicked to eternal torment.

Tartaros was secured with a surrounding wall of bronze set with a pair of gates, guarded by the hundred-handed Hekatonkheir giants, warders of the Titanes.

Through the gates of Tartaros passed Nyx (goddess of the Night) who emerged to wrap the earth in darkness, and also her daughter Hemera (Day), who scattered the mists of night.

The Pit sired a child, Typhoeus, a monstrous serpentine storm-giant who attempted to seize heaven. Zeus vanquished the creature and cast it back down into the Pit.

Erebus was known as the embodiment of primordial darkness, the son of Chaos (who was the void from which all things developed, known also as Darkness).

Later legend describes Erebus as the Infernal Region below the earth. In this version, Hades was split into two regions: Erebus, which the dead have to pass shortly after they have died, and Tartarus, the deepest region, where the Titans were imprisoned. Aristophanes' Birds says that Erebus and Nyx were also the parents of Eros, the god of love.

He is often used metaphorically for Hades itself. Erebus

In ancient Greek mythology and religion the DOMOS HAIDOU or "realm of Haides" was the land of the dead, the final resting place for departed souls. It was a dark and dismal realm in which bodiless ghosts flitted across grey fields of asphodel. The Homeric poets knew of no Islands of the Blessed or Elysian fields, or for that matter a Tartarean hell, instead all the spirits, including those of the great heroes, descended into Haides.

Homer, Odyssey 24. 12 ff :
"So did these ghosts travel on together squeaking, while easeful Hermes led them down [to the Land of the Dead] through the ways of dankness. They passed the streams of Okeanos, the White Rock (petra Leuka), the Gates of the Sun (pylai Hêlioi) and the Land of Dreams (demos oneiroi), and soon they came to the field of asphodel, where the souls (psykhai), the phantoms (eidola) of the dead have their habitation."

Pindar, Olympian Ode 2. 57 ff (trans. Conway) (Greek lyric C5th B.C.) : “When they die, hearts that were void of mercy pay the due penalty, and of this world’s sins a judge [either Minos or Rhadamanthys] below the earth holds trial, and of dread necessity declares the word of doom.

 

[tackattack]

@Tim, I believe what the intent was that the topic of destruction versus torment isn't covered by the Nicene, therefore not a topic that is considered core. I can appreciate that you consider it orthodox and core to your non-denominational faith. I also happen to agree with you. I don't think they consider it against the nicene creed, just a topic not covered by it is what I'm trying to say. I feel putting this belief as a dogma or on a list of othodox beliefs though would turn non-denominational into a new denomination, and agree with the mods on this.

 

[dollarsbill]

Now where could that false belief of torture have come from? Or the mythological Satan?

Please tell us which English translations deny the literal eternal punishment or Satan?

 

[Timothew]

@Tim, I believe what the intent was that the topic of destruction versus torment isn't covered by the Nicene, therefore not a topic that is considered core. I can appreciate that you consider it orthodox and core to your non-denominational faith. I also happen to agree with you. I don't think they consider it against the nicene creed, just a topic not covered by it is what I'm trying to say. I feel putting this belief as a dogma or on a list of othodox beliefs though would turn non-denominational into a new denomination, and agree with the mods on this.

But saying that this cannot be discussed in the non-denomination section says that eternal tormentalism is a dogma of the non-denominational churches. What I'm saying is that neither tormentalism nor annihilationism is a dogma of the non-denominational churches and annihilationism does not conflict withthe Nicene Creed, so the non-denominational forum is an appropriate place to discuss these beliefs. Whenever the discussion turns bad for tormentalism, the thread is discarded to UT where the traffic is lighter and the mods can say "see, annihilationism is unorthodox" and therefore imply that it is unbiblical. To them, it's a turf-war more than discovering truth from the bible. The move is strategic.

My suggestion is that the mods learn more about conditional immortality, and that the site owners seek out annihilationists and ask them to serve as mods as well for balance.

 

[he-man]

Please tell us which English translations deny the literal eternal punishment or Satan?

Do you have a Bible?
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of a devil;

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

 

[dollarsbill]

Do you have a Bible?
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of a devil;

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

So which part denies Satan or eternal punishment?

 

[Timothew]

So which part denies Satan or eternal punishment?

I know!

 

[he-man]

So which part denies Satan or eternal punishment?

Those who shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of a devil;
and 9 Who shall pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of a devil;

 

[ImaginaryDay]

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of a devil;

There is no denial of Satan here. The ESV renders this as follows:
"Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons". This does not suggest that 'doctrines of a devil' are false, but that men will give themselves to teachings that come from demons rather than the Lord.

As to the OP, my opinion is that Hell is a place of eternal torment that will be everlasting.

 

[dollarsbill]

As to the OP, my opinion is that Hell is a place of eternal torment that will be everlasting.

Your opinion is quite Scriptural.

 

[he-man]

There is no denial of Satan here.
As to the OP, my opinion is that Hell is a place of eternal torment that will be everlasting.

You must have the wrong Bible then because your translators left out the KEY word:
Mat 13:28 He said to them, a man1, an enemy has done this thing. And the servants said to him, Do you wish then that we go and gather2 them up?
1* Greek ανθρωπος man

2* Greek συλλέγω gather, collect

Deu 28:20 The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me.

perish

literary die, especially in a violent or sudden way. ▶suffer complete ruin or destruction.
© Oxford University Press, 2004

Job 4:8 Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. 9 By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.

consume

eat, drink, or ingest. ▶use up. ▶(especially of a fire) completely destroy.
© Oxford University Press, 2004

 

[Soulgazer]

There was no concept of an afterlife in Judaism until it was Hellenized in the second or third century BC. The teaching of personal salvation or damnation was considered a "heresy" against Judaism until the concept gradually caught on.

You can trace the progression of the theology through the various branches of Judaism. The Samaritan, who looked at Moses as the Last Prophet, The Sadducee who came into power at the close of the Hasmonian dynasty about 150BC rebuked those that believed such. The Pharisee, about the same time, adopted the new Enochian concept of a final judgment day and resurrection.

As the concept of Heaven and Hell originated in the Greek mythologies, and were adopted by the portions of Judaism that believed in them, that would be a better place to go for their descriptions, rather than try to read them backward into a culture that did not have the concept.

 

[ImaginaryDay]

@he-man
I assure you my bible is correct. I notice you did not respond to the verse in question, though. I prefer a logical conversation as opposed to jumping around so how about we stick with my response to 1 Ti:4:1 then we can come back to this. I'm not refuting what you have here as it SEEMS to support immediate death (spiritual) but let's stick with what the Bible says. Many such as Rob Bell and others WANT to believe that's what it says, but it's just not supported if we look at the WHOLE of scripture and what was being taught culturally at the time. Besides, I'm on vacation right now and don't have a lot of my resources with me God bless.

 

[he-man]

@he-man
I assure you my bible is correct. I notice you did not respond to the verse in question, though. I prefer a logical conversation as opposed to jumping around so how about we stick with my response to 1 Ti:4:1 then we can come back to this. I'm not refuting what you have here as it SEEMS to support immediate death (spiritual) but let's stick with what the Bible says. Many such as Rob Bell and others WANT to believe that's what it says, but it's just not supported if we look at the WHOLE of scripture and what was being taught culturally at the time. Besides, I'm on vacation right now and don't have a lot of my resources with me God bless.

No, please read the following so you can understand:
Ματ 1328 ο δε εφη αυτοις εχθρος ανος τουτο εποιησεν οι δε δουλοι λεγουσιν αυτω θελις ουν απελθοντες συλλεξωμεν αυτα
Codex Sinaiticus ¨

Matthew 13:28 (Darby)
28 And he said to them, A man [that is] an enemy has done this. And the bondmen said to him, Wilt thou then that we should go and gather it [up]?

Matthew 13:28 (Wescott-Hort)
28 ο δε εφη αυτοις εχθρος ανθρωπος τουτο εποιησεν οι δε αυτω λεγουσιν θελεις ουν απελθοντες συλλεξωμεν αυτα

Matthew 13:28 (YLT)
28 And he saith to them, A man, an enemy, did this; and the servants said to him, Wilt thou, then, that having gone away we may gather it up?

Greek Word: ἄνθρωπος
Transliteration: anthrōpos
Phonetic Pronunciation: anth'-ro-pos
Root: from <G435> and ops (the countenance, from <G3700>), man-faced, i.e. a human being
Cross Reference: TDNT - 1:364,59
Part of Speech: n m
Vine's Words: Man, People, Person
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

Regarding the usage of devils or demons in 1 Tim 4:1, you can use the word demons or devils if you like but the other scriptures use the word "devil" and they both mean the same thing being from the root word daio.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Greek Strong's Number: 4108[/FONT]
Greek Word: &#960;&#955;&#8049;&#957;&#959;&#962;
Transliteration: planos
Phonetic Pronunciation: plan'-os
Root: of uncertain affinity
Cross Reference: TDNT - 6:228,857
Part of Speech: adj
Vine's Words: Deceiver, Seduce, Seducing
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

Lev 17:7 And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils, after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations.

Herodotus says that all goats were worshipped in Egypt; but particularly he-goats. From these seem to have sprung Pan, Silenus, and the innumerable herd of those imaginary beings, fauns, satyrs, dryads, etc., all woodland gods, and held in veneration by the Greeks and Romans. (Greek Mythology); (TSK)
nm. he-goat

Eating is considered fellowship with devils; with those who worship Idols and is not allowed.

1Co 10:19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?

20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Greek Strong's Number: 1140[/FONT]
Greek Word: &#948;&#945;&#953;&#956;&#8057;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957;
Transliteration: daimonion
Phonetic Pronunciation: dahee-mon'-ee-on
Root: neuter of a derivative of <G1142>
Cross Reference: TDNT - 2:1,137
Part of Speech: n n
Vine's Words: Demon, Demoniac
by extensive a deity :- devil, god.
English Words used in KJV:
devil 59
from <G1142> from daio (to distribute fortunes); a dæmon or supernatural spirit (of a bad nature) :- devil.
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hebrew Strong's Number: 8163[/FONT]
Hebrew Word: &#8207;&#1513;&#1474;&#1464;&#1506;&#1460;&#1497;&#1512;&#8206;
Transliteration: &#347;&#257;&#703;îr
Phonetic Pronunciation: saw-eer'
Root: from <H8175>
Cross Reference: TWOT - 2274c, 2274e
Part of Speech:
Vine's Words: Goat-demons
Usage Notes:

English Words used in KJV:
kid 28
goat 24
devil 2
satyr 2
hairy 2
rough 1
[Total Count: 59]

or sa`ir, saw-eer'; from <H8175> (sa`ar); shaggy; as noun, a he-goat; by analogy a faun :- devil, goat, hairy, kid, rough, satyr.
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
nm. he-goat

Your mythical interpretation of how sin should be punished comes from Greek Mythology of (Leader of the Souls), and who sentences the most wicked to eternal torment.:

Ixion became one of the more famous sinners on display on Tartarus, and most writers mention him when describing the place. For example, Ovid wrote of him, and Vergil, with his moralistic interpretation of how sin should be punished, awards Ixion a special mention in the Aenead.

Pluto (French Pluton and Italian Plutone) is commonly used as the name of the classical ruler of the underworld in subsequent Western literature and other art forms. Hansen, Classical Mythology, p. 182

In ancient Greek mythology and religion the DOMOS HAIDOU or "realm of Haides" was the land of the dead, the final resting place for departed souls. It was a dark and dismal realm in which bodiless ghosts flitted across grey fields of asphodel. The Homeric poets knew of no Islands of the Blessed or Elysian fields, or for that matter a Tartarean hell, instead all the spirits, including those of the great heroes, descended into Haides.

A judge named Minos receives the dead from Hermes Psykhogogos (Leader of the Souls), and sentences the most wicked to eternal torment.
Tartaros was secured with a surrounding wall of bronze set with a pair of gates, guarded by the hundred-handed Hekatonkheir giants, warders of the Titanes.

Through the gates of Tartaros passed Nyx (goddess of the Night) who emerged to wrap the earth in darkness, and also her daughter Hemera (Day), who scattered the mists of night.
The Pit sired a child, Typhoeus, a monstrous serpentine storm-giant who attempted to seize heaven. Zeus vanquished the creature and cast it back down into the Pit.
Ixion